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So on the 27th, someone seems to have gotten caught trying to infiltrate the protestors. I'm more inclined to believe this than the sniper thing. http://www.democracynow.org/2016/10/31/did_dapl_security_worker_wielding_an https://www.facebook.com/wearethemedia2016/posts/652481118266252 And yeah, I have no idea why the ACE thing that was supposed to halt construction was suddenly overturned with nobody mentioning it. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Oct 31, 2016 |
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Oct 31, 2016 16:40
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Does anybody know what the story is with the Morton County Sheriffs announcing that dude with the AR-15 had been shot by protestors and was being treated, and then the statement was retracted a couple days later? I only came across it today although it seems as though it was all over on thursday friday.
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Oct 31, 2016 21:51
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Tias posted:No, but it would appear to be a lie. We have photos and video of USA veteran protestors negotiating a peaceful stand-down with him, and of his ID papers confirming his employment at one of the security contracting companies. https://www.facebook.com/MortonCountySD/posts/345562455796099 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dakota-access-pipeline-protesters-removed_us_58123b0ee4b0990edc2fb009 Yeah, I just haven't heard anyone mention that hey, the authorities are literally lying in a way that makes the protestors look like a violent, armed group... coyo7e fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 22:46
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DeusExMachinima posted:If nuclear was as common as coal, you'd be able to point to a larger list of failures and lay it out in an impressive looking post even though on the whole they're far safer. Freaking out over pipelines destroying the environment is the same as people blowing Three Mile Island out of proportion or condemning fracking when the alternative is burning more coal. There is no free lunch here, period. Until we find a renewable resource with a) the energy density of oil and that b) doesn't require a net negative investment of energy to extract, oil is here to stay. Hopefully technology evolves sufficiently before we run out of it. If you've got an alternative to it right now by all means step up and receive your Nobel prize. It's not about installing more solar panels and wind turbines to offshoot the use of fossil fuels, as much as it's about making sure that current systems and technologies are being used to their full potential. The vast majority of refrigerators, water heaters, HVAC units, chillers, blowers, and other pieces of climate control infrastructure in most commercial and industrial buildings are badly, badly maintained - often times people will simply yank out timer controls etc, because they got frustrated with a semi-related problem and they decided that the best troubleshooting method was the dyke out the timer, which leaves one system running full-bore 24/7, which leads to other systems going full-bore to coun ter that heater or HVAC or exhaust fan that's running, etc etc on down the line. That's not even getting into improving the equipment with existing technologies. Commercial and Industrial buildings consume 60% of the energy in the USA and in most developed nations, and they actually have huge incentives to imrpove... But naw bro, let's just build another pipeline to burn more fuel so we can run that AC unit all night while nobody's in the building. Check out The Ecology of Commerce, or google up one of Bill McDonough's Cradle to Cradle videos (or read the book), or The Philosophy of Sutainabile design, or hell just go watch Chasing the Sun which focuses more on residential projects and energy policy, but also pulls back the curtain on what kind of pushback we face. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Nov 2, 2016 |
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Nov 2, 2016 22:06
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Dead Reckoning posted:Can you provide any example of a system of building permits that works this way? As for what happens when you privatize utilities and energy providers and depend on them to be honest and intend the best for all involved, well, refer to California's 6 days of brownouts and blackouts, and watch The Smartest Guys In the Room.
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Nov 2, 2016 22:20
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Gobbeldygook posted:I thought business consumers paid more simply because they can pay more? I know some (most? all?) areas charge on a sliding scale where as you use more electricity you pay more per watt. Energy utilities have three classifications for a property/building: -residential. self-explanatory, this includes apartments, high rises, and other high density buildings, as well as every stick-built house or double-wide trailer that plugs into the grid. (don't ask me how a high rise with commercial space as well as residential works, I suspect it involves multiple meters though). -commercial. This is a HUGE range of property and buildings, because it includes stuff like retail, office space, server farms (this should probably be industrial, the energy usage of these things is ENORMOUS), schools, universities, and governmental buildings as well as communal stuff like sports arenas and stuff.. Probably even churches. Retail spaces can also have drastic fluctuations in energy consumption based on who moves into the space... Imagine the utility bills of an American Apparel store at the mall, versus an Ice Cream shop (refrigeration and cooling are by far the highest consumption in any given building, in almost every possible case), versus someone just papering over the windows and installing a server farm in that empty space? -industrial. manufacturing plants, distribution plants, water and sewage treatment, waste disposal, you name it. Now the second two both use the same kind of meter, but there reasons to keep them seperate - largely due to the power draw being a lot higher use and for longer sustained periods in industrial, than most commercial tends to end up with. (again, this is a great reason to move large-scale IT facilities into industrial classification, for various reasons which would assist infrastructure) Once you get a commercial meter, the utility provider watches your energy usage in minute increments over a long period, so they can get some benchmarks and stuff to figure out how much you use per hour, day, week, month, and annum - as well as in much smaller intervals. Once they get a good baseline (I dunno how they charge for a fresh building that's not started up yet, but probably by using stats on similar structures in similar climes, with similar output and production levels - they probably get the data from the EPA's Portfolio Manager software which contains stats for every goddamned building in every state in the USA that's ever had an energy audit done, its climate, power draw, etc etc, amazing tool https://www.energystar.gov/buildings/facility-owners-and-managers/existing-buildings/use-portfolio-manager insert political comment: this is one reason why we don't want to get rid of the EPA, among other things they provide tools like this to anybody at all - for loving FREE! ) they go through and identify the highest peak usage within a 15 minute window for the ENTIRE year. Then the utility provider says "well, we need to make sure we cover our asses, so we'll need to have enough juice bought up that we could cover that building's 15 minute peak times 30,040". Then they adjust the price each year, based on the same metrics.. This also means that a business can get absolutely astounding RoI by just figuring out what their worst 15 minute window was and then dealing with it.. Energy Managers and Auditors tend to literally pay for their own salaries of consulting fees almost immediately, for this reason.. Part of the reason it's so important to focus on energy use reduction and efficiency increases in the business sector, is that residential buildings have a much, much longer expected RoI window - if you go to install a better water heater, or a solar panel, or a set of new windows in your house, you are going to have to figure out how many years it will take before it pays for itself, and a lot of those type of projects will not "pay for themselves" for a period which is usually 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, or 40 years depending on the installation. So immediate benefits for businesses include saving huge loads of money, good public PR, better production from employees as well as higher employee satisfaction (well-maintained buildings have good lighting, good ventilation, and no stale air, as well as nobody fighting over the thermostat all day). NewForumSoftware posted:
coyo7e fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Nov 3, 2016 |
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Nov 2, 2016 23:59
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stop building oil pipelines
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Gobbeldygook posted:I thought business consumers paid more simply because they can pay more? Publicly-Owned Utilities - their entire purpose is to provide enough power to support the needs of their area and its customers and also to prevent disasters due to shortages or poor infrastructure maintenance. I live in the PNW where the public utility providers formed a co-op which provides them with a load of bargaining power when they go to Bonneville Power and give them their order of juice for the upcoming year (and they do try to do that, because if BP runs out of juice errybody gets hosed, so they need enough warning about the demand, to make sure they can handle providing enough power to meet that assumed demand as it comes up - while still understanding that the actual consumption of energy may be different and covering it anyway). Privately-Owned Utilities go by the (totally non-ironic) acronym IOUs because they're Investor-Owned Utilities, who manage the energy and water needs of their area and customers with the ultimate goal of providing a profit to their investors. I can list 30 or 40 years of what happened with IOUs on the west coast in large part, as well as give plenty of anecdotal evidence from friends and family I know who live far out in the sticks and rely on IOUs rather than public utility district providers - their bills are huge, they hate their service, it takes eons to get anyone to fix their poo poo. For reference to someone not living in the PNW, my personal energy bill is 5.27 cents per kilowatt-hour (you can find this, it's itemized on your power bill), which means that the actual electricity-used part of my bill for my current place I live came to like 16 bucks for the month of July (I used 306 KWH), on this bill I just had in a nearby drawer - which is shockingly lower than a lot of places back east, ignoring the water portion or service fees. It really is that simple - the government stepped in a long time ago and said, "hey, everybody has the right to water and power - it's a basic human need due to our level of civilization and society, that pretty much nobody ends up living like an animal (because they're, ultimately, a drain on society if they're unable to consume or provide goods or services in the most socially-accepted manner.) Some places have deregulated, and that generally lends itself to areas where there isn't enough demand or customers to bother to keep them happy, so the utilities get jacked way up, and the customers go "welp, I'll buy a loving generator and live mostly off the grid because this bullshit is unreliable." coyo7e fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Nov 3, 2016 |
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Nov 3, 2016 00:39
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Liquid Communism posted:To give you a comparison, I paid 11.17 cents per kilowatt-hour on last month's bill in Iowa. MidAmerican, our provider, surprise, surprise is an IOU. However, I'm curious if you or CommieGR are aware of any incentivized programs in your state/region (you can often find them through your provider) which offer rebates and the like for upgrading your equipment, and possibly if they're fed-funded or funded through your IOU? I know that in Catching the Sun covers some incentive programs (both career and customer-oriented) but those are in CA, and CA is still recoiling from the cock-slap that Enron gave them in the early 2000s.. I am curious if IOUs in any of the areas that weren't hosed over by blackouts due to the system being gamed by privately owned organizations, are being active in helping their customers use less power so the IOU has less overhead costs (and thus higher profits) or whether or not public incentive programs are available.. Or maybe there have been brownouts and blackouts all over states in the midwest and on the east coast (summer of sam cough cough) and it's already been addressed and I'm just not familiar enough with local politics and history? Programs like those have the capacity to be huge agents of change while not hurting anybody's bottom line and also providing shitloads of new jobs in growing industries coyo7e fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Nov 3, 2016 |
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Nov 3, 2016 01:13
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Liquid Communism posted:MidAmerican is doing a ton of work in that direction. Putting in literal billions of dollars of wind infrastructure right now. But seriously, this is the biggest potential growth sector I can possibly think of, right now. I missed the silicon bubble, the search engine bubble, etc. But we're all gonna die if someone's not doing these jobs, it's not really that tough of poo poo (especially if you're already strong in IT or construction or electrical, because it's basically maintenance with a lot of analytics and the ability to read blueprints and calculate physics poo poo based off thermodynamics, liquid dynamics, and pressure differentials) to do, there's a million off-branches and most haven't been invented yet, and I don't particularly care if I'm a hired gun helping a big gross company cut their margins by saving energy usage, or helping people at 2*poverty get new water heaters and windows and poo poo for free, or anything in between.. Watch Catching the Sun, and then ignore all the wankery about solar power - solar's great, we've got some new cells which are way more efficient, but there's so much more which can be done before we even bother strapping poo poo to the roof of any given building. Also google up cradle to cradle, and that philosophy of sustainable design book. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Nov 3, 2016 |
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Nov 3, 2016 01:39
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DeusExMachinima posted:Naw naw dude, you are the one who doesn't get it. Only 1% of U.S. power grid generation comes from petrofuels. Or perhaps you're being disingenuous about what the difference between coal and petrofuels and natural gas (methane) is, in terms of environmental cost, production cost, etc, in pursuit of your agenda? coyo7e fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Nov 4, 2016 |
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Nov 4, 2016 02:58
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blowfish posted:uhhh
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Nov 5, 2016 16:36
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rudatron posted:'Shot' has a strong implication of 'shot with lethal ammunition', so unless you say 'shot with rubber bullets', you are actually being dishonest. This is obvious to everyone, even yourself, and the only reason you're denying it (in public), is because it's convenient for you to do so, and you (falsely) assume that by arguing technicality/pedantically, you can frustrate other people into not calling your bullshit. If you were to go up to a crowd of people and shoot one of them with a rubber bullet, the authorities won't be like, "oh it's cool it didn't kill anyone." When a guy on a boat shoots someone in the back with a non-lethal round, they still shot someone - whether or not it meets your requirements for the definition of being shot really has no bearing, because they were still shot.
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Nov 5, 2016 16:38
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blowfish posted:Yeah and that's not from enviromental racism, which was the point of contention. edit: perhaps you would be so kind as to define what "environmental racism" is, then? Is it, say, killing off the buffalo that Native Americans depended on, in order to make money selling pelts to wealthy people? Is it damming up rivers which Native Populations subsisted off of, and then giving the jobs to white people, and then routing off most of the power to big cities? Flat-topping mountains which the people of Appalachia have lived on for generations while ignoring the residents? Taking bulldozers to federal wildlife reserve land which used to belong to native people, and then holding it with guns? coyo7e fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Nov 5, 2016 |
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Nov 5, 2016 17:44
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Trees are people. People aren't people. Got it
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Nov 5, 2016 17:50
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The thing is, just because you live in an urban environment, doesn't mean that the environment doesn't exist, or that it can't be actively harmful. Do you believe that having mumble mumble percent of black people living within a couple miles of a coal plant etc is environmental racism? If you do, how is that not directly related to redlining?
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Nov 5, 2016 17:52
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twodot posted:Sure, but the words used wasn't "potentially lethal force" it was "shoot". I would also say it's dishonest to describing using a taser as shooting without more context. When people say "the police shoot" with no extra information, I think it's reasonable to assume, they mean normal bullets, and I think the author is aware a lot of people will make that incorrect assumption. Or maybe if there's a not-a-real-lead-bullet projectile which happens to come out of the barrel and which hurts or injures someone is covered as "shooting" someone in your book, how about if I held a gun to your head and pulled the trigger, and no projectile came out, but it still killed you from the gas expansion? Is that shooting you, or not? http://articles.latimes.com/1998/oct/04/local/me-29125 But wait, okay, those are obviously times when someone was killed by accident. So how about when I point a less than lethal rubber bullet gun at you and shoot you, and you die? Did I "shoot" you? What if I fired the rubber bullet and it didn't kill you but only hosed you up real good, did I "shoot" you then?  Okay so now I'm gonna shoot you with a rubber bullet and it'll only injure you in a non-fatal way, did I shoot you?  Or okay, I shot you and you were wearing like, a few layers of heavy clothing and it just felt like you got hit by a bullwhip and a baseball bat at the same time and it left a  big welt, but there was no like, serious physical damage outside of the whole "being kicked by a horse" thing. I didn't shoot you, right? So we've established what "shooting" someone is, and what isn't, right?I mean, I've been hit by a water balloon launcher that knocked me down and left a softball-sized welt for a week, I'd say a rubber bullet probably hurts a lot worse. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Nov 5, 2016 |
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Nov 5, 2016 19:53
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let me translate, "real 'muricans ain't gonna cry like little babby girls because they sustained a mutual impact with a non-lethal defense round.. Grow a pair, bitches"
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Nov 5, 2016 23:56
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qkkl posted:Why doesn't the company just sign a contract with the land owners stating that if an accident happens then the company will pay for all damages, such as the water being polluted? Really what ought to be done is to restructure how limited liability corporations can be formed and can remain an entity. They really were formed to encourage investment in high risk and low growth areas, and eventually grew to encompass virtually every reasonably-sized business out there. They've come a long way from when the board of investors were expected to also be wholesome and informed citizens with an interest in pursuing a reasonable profit through public works intended to improve everyone's lot coyo7e fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Nov 6, 2016 |
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Nov 6, 2016 14:40
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rudatron posted:The only way out is 'through', and the only way 'through' is ruthless materialism - 'thinking like an oil company'. Only applied to whatever goal you actually want. It's ironic really, that corporations gained the rights of people which turned them essentially into immortal and superhuman entities, and now you're saying that the best way to deal with this issue is to have people turn themselves into corporations 
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Nov 6, 2016 17:06
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Pellisworth posted:I spoke with my mom (instructor at a Lakota tribal college) last night, she had a lot of students and other people she knows who participated in the protests and occupation and of course it's a huge topic of debate on the reservation. Also some news that isn't about natives being run over and having guns pointed at the,: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/dakota-pipeline-protests/army-corps-engineers-says-pipeline-construction-can-t-continue-without-n683871
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Nov 15, 2016 23:24
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Liquid Communism posted:I see you suffer from a category mistake here. If the property owner agrees without recompense or disagreement, then the easement was willing and the property owners are happy to have it. When property owners and neighbors and everyone in the immediate area flips their poo poo, on the other hand... http://countercurrentnews.com/2016/10/woman-arrested-property-land-stolen-dapl/ At least one of the anti-DaPL links I came across today defines an easement as, "an agreement to pass through land to provide a public service," what service is this pipeline giving those folks? I've had all kinds of easements on my property as a kid growing up, helping my folks flip properties etc.. And one of the really, really nasty tiny details about an easement - is that if you DO NOT fight it for a long enough period (if you were aware of its existence, or harm, or annoyance factor, or not!) then you just have to knuckle under and eat poo poo and allow literally unlimited numbers of people to cross "your" (cuz it sure as gently caress isn't any longer) property in perpetuity and also now you're the lawbreaker if it gets past the point of reasonable traffic to you, as the person who bought and paid for that land which is now a public access throughfare http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/easement So basically it's your land - you still pay taxes on it! But it's no longer yours to use, and it's probably stuck in the middle of your own ACTUAL land, so you've got to figure out ways to cross it (bridges, tunnels, agreements to bury the line under the ground so it's not in your loving way 24/7, etc) and now you can be charged if you happen to get in the way of whatever stranger shows up on your property at whatever time of the day or night for any reason, to do whateverthefuck they deem "necessary". In my personal experience, the word "easement" can be a poison bullet to a property purchase - because nobody wants to buy a piece of property that some third-party assholes can cross at will and whim, and have no recourse. I've seen my own parents both refuse deals because of annoying easements with sketchy neighbors, or simply sell off as son as an easement caught them flat-footed and they got sick of dealing with it coyo7e fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 02:06
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Avenging_Mikon posted:So delay is a viable win strategy? Sweet.
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Nov 20, 2016 02:06
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Is there any footage which shows these supposed fires being set, or blazing?
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Nov 22, 2016 03:35
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RandomPauI posted:I saw a still photo in one article. Of course if it's sub-freezing temperatures, building a bonfire not near the lines of conflict is not exactly an offensive maneuver
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Nov 22, 2016 04:13
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wateroverfire posted:drat, that's terrible. I hope she recovers. either way it's a horrible shitshow and I have a sinking feeling that it's just going to be a meatgrinder until either the protestors are all in the hospital, or something gives in. I really hope the companies funding DAPl have to foot most of the bill for this use of force and equipment, because I sure as poo poo know that if a thousand people camped out on my land I wouldn't have a half-dozen MRAPs out there disbursing them for me for free
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Nov 22, 2016 19:32
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Hmm, a small propane 1 lb gallon propane bottle held under your arm might do that, but there'd be shrapnel hitting other people and poo poo, it'd probably kill you imho. Propane bottles are designed to NOT explode randomly from ruptures and impacts, and it's not easy to like, stick a fuse in them. The chances of being that close to a propane cylinder which was literally being heated up over a fire or something for a period of time (perhaps a road flare? :sci101: ) are pretty slim unless she was literally trying to jockey around for a good shot with a lit propane bomb. Extraordinarily unlikely imho On the other hand http://imgur.com/gallery/2YIni  Dead Reckoning posted:Conventional tear gas and smoke grenades don't detonate and don't contain explosives, so probably not that. (also note that the info in that lethality link is suspect, because "On May 28, 2014, a 19-month-old baby boy's face was severely burned and mutilated when a stun grenade was thrown into his playpen by a SWAT team looking for drugs in a Cornelia, Georgia home. The baby survived with facial disfigurement.[15]" the damage also caused one of the baby's lungs collapsing and some serious damage to his abdomen as well. http://abcnews.go.com/US/family-toddler-injured-swat-grenade-faces-1m-medical/story?id=27671521 you can clearly see or read about the bandages and damage to his chest and lung in most other sources) quote:What they didn’t realize at the time was that the blast from the flash-bang grenade severely burned Bou Bou’s face and torso and collapsed his left lung. Alecia says the officers wouldn’t allow her to see her child before he was whisked away in an ambulance. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 01:55
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DeusExMachinima posted:Dare I even ask how they got burned out in the first place? I heard nothing about burned-out vehicles being used to block this particular bridge in the last few days though - the hoses and conc grenades and rubber bullets were supposedly deployed when the protestors tried to clear away a blockade from a bridge but I heard no indications that it was the same bridge that protestors burnt barriers on previously, or that they lit anything on the bridge on fire - drone footage certainly doesn't look like there's much in the way of vehicles or material on the bridge. Please let me know if and when I'm mistaken on any of this because that's about the best info I've been able to piece together from a buttload of media sources in the last couple weeks - a lot of sources (even "MSM" ones) seem to be radically minimizing the injuries - my local paper had a DAPL story in the bottom corner of the front page today and it read "200 protestors treated for hypothermia after clash with authorities in sub-freezing weather - policeman injured". coyo7e fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 04:15
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wateroverfire posted:IDK man. You don't have to go far back to find accounts of violence by protesters. For instance: Shine on you crazy diamond
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Nov 23, 2016 17:12
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Also I have literally never in my life laid eyes on a silver propane tank of any size. Maybe it's a Midwest thing?
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Nov 23, 2016 17:16
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XMNN posted:Just go on the wiki page for a handy list of examples of people receiving blast injuries from flash bangs Naw man DEM has played every call of duty and flashbangs only deal 1 point of impact damage and no blast damage
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Nov 23, 2016 17:18
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XMNN posted:in which we pretend that setting off a charge containing ammonium perchlorate to create a bang in fact creates no sort of overpressure whatsoever on the basis of ??? Don't you understand physics? 
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Nov 23, 2016 17:34
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So there's a ton of by the minute videos from a guy livestreaming from the other night that nobody's mentioned itt yet so if you want, just google up Kevin Gilbertt dapl. His video shows a small fire spring up spontaneously and then get snuffed out in seconds, it's not really possible to tell what started it. Details I hadn't heard mentioned so far include the materials of the bridge barricade - two burnt dump trucks parked nose to nose. I hadn't realized that they've been there for weeks and the authorities refuse to remove them. As Uglycat posted, what was going on that night was they had successfully hooked up one of the dump truck hulks and dragged it off the bridge and into the road, before the police and guard showed up in real force and began firing tear gas and using a water cannon directly on protestors when they got bottled up on the bridge. There were no fires on or near the bridge. Dead Reckoning posted:The majority of the pipeline is constructed on private lands and requires no federal permits. The ACoE has to approve construction at the 209 points where it crosses the waterways of the United States. The ACoE believes that they have met their obligation to review the environmental and cultural impacts of the project at these points. The ACoE also has to consult with affected native tribes. They are not required to act on the tribes' input. The Corps has demonstrated that they made a good faith effort to consult with the Standing Rock. quote:Washington, D.C. – Today, the Army informed the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, Energy Transfer Partners, and Dakota Access, LLC, that it has completed the review that it launched on September 9, 2016. The Army has determined that additional discussion and analysis are warranted in light of the history of the Great Sioux Nation’s dispossessions of lands, the importance of Lake Oahe to the Tribe, our government-to-government relationship, and the statute governing easements through government property. Also there's the whole thing with private landowners also being walked over by their bullying style of using easements because the pipeline is supposedly some sort of necessary piece of public infrastructure and not a wholly private piece of construction. Uglycat posted:There is /not/ cohesive leadership.
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Nov 23, 2016 21:34
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Elendil004 posted:I am seeing conflicting sources. Has the national guard deployed to standing rock or just police?
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Nov 23, 2016 22:02
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I find it telling that the nation's police forces are more willing to use non-lethal and lethal force against unarmed protestors - than they are about actual armed rebels.
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Nov 24, 2016 00:02
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Liquid Communism posted:I wish it was surprising, but you know how it goes with authoritarians. They're at their happiest when they can apply the maximum amount of remotely justifiable force to a target which is not a threat to them. 
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Nov 24, 2016 02:17
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https://www.facebook.com/paul.blumekmsp/videos/1115197865202714/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED The injured woman's father going over what happened and how it played out and why. Not the first time I've heard she got shot by rubber bullets a few times as well.
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Nov 24, 2016 03:17
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Dead Reckoning posted:On the contrary, law and morality are orthogonal. The proper role of law is to define the relationship between citizens and the state/society, not to encode morality. Most people would agree that adultery is immoral, but far fewer think it should be illegal. Not everything immoral is illegal, and not every lawful action is moral. Complaining that the law does not prohibit someone from doing something you find morally objectionable is like complaining that you've been working out and eating right, but your car still doesn't go any faster. https://www.quora.com/Is-there-anything-legal-but-immoral
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Nov 24, 2016 04:42
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 Source - http://homebrave.com/home-of-the-brave//standing-rock-part-one
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Nov 24, 2016 05:30
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DeusExMachinima posted:You guys realize that unless you want to count out all less-lethal options, CS isn't usefully distinguishable right? Just giving me your word that getting hit with a less-lethal chemical agent is morally worse than whatever other less-lethal thing you'd prefer doesn't give me a reason to take you seriously.
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Nov 24, 2016 07:46
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Avenging_Mikon posted:Show me a documented source with video or pictorial evidence that isn't "police say." I'll wait. I noticed that police now claim they found a pierced propane canister (which, as anybody who's familiar with propane knows, means that it couldn't have exploded). But why do they keep claiming that they found rocks and saying they're commonly used in molotovs?
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Nov 25, 2016 00:50
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