|
Brainiac Five posted:Good. I'm glad to hear it. If I were writing posts that appealed to you and you found pleasant, that would be a cause for worry. It is cool how you avoid responding to any actual position I propose, like "banning something doesn't magically become something else if you call it 'regulating'" or "your policy proposal has not addressed many issues and is not actually radical." I'm beginning to suspect you have a carcinogenic (this means "causes cancer", theImmigrant) mixture of malevolence and stupidity. You're kooky, dude.
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 21:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 08:16 |
|
|
Hot drat, I go away to get something to eat and have a shower and return to find I'm advocating child prostitution now. I think for my next one I'll suggest multilateral nuclear disarmament and return to find my point's mutated into advocacy for the widespread use of sarin gas as an alternative killing tool.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 21:52
|
|
|
Brainiac Five posted:And in those countries, people involved in sex work are still disproportionately ethnic minorities, LGBT, and women. The approach you're endorsing, which is in fact a reformist liberal one, doesn't solve the problem. Not to mention that your entire argument is based on a refusal to think, but rather dull ourselves and rely totally on the bestial phenomena of "common sense" and the gut. To be quite honest, forfeiting thinking should be a package deal with forfeiting breathing. You have the capacity, and you cannot refuse it. And yet: even though things are not perfect, conditions are still better for sex workers in places where adult sex work is legalized and regulated.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 21:52
|
|
|
So, one assertion I've seen reading through this thread is that "race-blind" assistance programs are not-viable, but is because they will be targeted away from minorities, or dismantled entirely based on 'welfare queen' propaganda? What's the playbook for this look like? Like, to take a semi-real example from the UK Jeremy Corbyn is going to announce research into Minimum Income - it's race-blind, so how would racism blunt it? The only thing I can really think of is the afrirementioned 'welfare queen' propaganda, but what else is there?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 21:53
|
|
|
Rockopolis posted:So, one assertion I've seen reading through this thread is that "race-blind" assistance programs are not-viable, but is because they will be targeted away from minorities, or dismantled entirely based on 'welfare queen' propaganda? Mincome would probably still be something that you would need to apply for with proof of citizenship or residency or the like and I can imagine first and maybe even second or third generation immigrants having extra hoops to jump through in that regard. Particularly in the hostile and xenophobic climate of post-brexit Britain where I reckon there would be much rabble-rousing on the subject by right wing populists of all stripes in hopes of making the requirements tougher.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 21:58
|
|
|
Just to be clear, you are saying it would be difficult, but not unviable.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 22:00
|
|
|
TomViolence posted:Hot drat, I go away to get something to eat and have a shower and return to find I'm advocating child prostitution now. I think for my next one I'll suggest multilateral nuclear disarmament and return to find my point's mutated into advocacy for the widespread use of sarin gas as an alternative killing tool. Would you mind explaining how "banning doesn't work" is compatible with banning child prostitution? The Kingfish posted:And yet: even though things are not perfect, conditions are still better for sex workers in places where adult sex work is legalized and regulated. You're allowed to enter those countries so that is in doubt, I'm afraid. Rockopolis posted:So, one assertion I've seen reading through this thread is that "race-blind" assistance programs are not-viable, but is because they will be targeted away from minorities, or dismantled entirely based on 'welfare queen' propaganda? The biggest issue is that oftentimes universality isn't actually universal. So a mincome might be "adjusted for cost of living" and thus lower for minority-majority areas. Or it might be made conditional on paperwork racial minorities have less access to.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 22:01
|
|
|
Oh, so like the voter ID hullabaloo in the US? I didn't think of that, but it makes sense? So what's the counter? Is it just, I dunno, ignoring the calls and hoping the general population just doesn't care enough to bother with it? edit The Kingfish posted:Just to be clear, you are saying it would be difficult, but not unviable. I guess unviable implies that having a safe income is going to be outweighed by other ussues. Mm, criminal justice is probably the biggest vulnerability - mincome is designed to ameliorate employment discrimination, but doesn't help much with getting shot/arrested/kicked off for being a felon. Rockopolis fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Sep 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 22:04
|
|
|
Rockopolis posted:Oh, so like the voter ID hullabaloo in the US? I didn't think of that, but it makes sense? The counter is, on the level of laws, writing them so they're actually universal, and on the level of implementation, having people regularly checking into what's happening on the ground and collecting data at a higher level to interpret how it's being implemented. Another issue is getting the checks out to people, but that's a more complex issue and in theory you could just establish an national bank and give everyone their own account and debit card(s).
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 22:08
|
|
|
Brainiac Five posted:Would you mind explaining how "banning doesn't work" is compatible with banning child prostitution? Legalising and regulating prostitution is not merely prohibition of another sort and it's disingenuous to suggest that's what I meant. If sex work was conducted in the open with proper oversight it would greatly reduce the incidence of child prostitution, rather than having it be part of the continuum of criminality that a black market would otherwise emerge and provide. If this step was part of an overarching plan to restructure society, the other factors which contribute to child prostitution could also be combated and the sordid and immoral industry of coercing children into the sex trade through poverty, desperation and violence could perhaps be entirely squeezed out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 22:09
|
|
|
TomViolence posted:Legalising and regulating prostitution is not merely prohibition of another sort and it's disingenuous to suggest that's what I meant. If sex work was conducted in the open with proper oversight it would greatly reduce the incidence of child prostitution, rather than having it be part of the continuum of criminality that a black market would otherwise emerge and provide. If this step was part of an overarching plan to restructure society, the other factors which contribute to child prostitution could also be combated and the sordid and immoral industry of coercing children into the sex trade through poverty, desperation and violence could perhaps be entirely squeezed out. So what you're actually saying, as far as I can tell, is that child prostitution should be completely legal, but discouraged. Uh huh. And here everyone was saying I was misinterpreting you. Or maybe you're just a dipshit who's afraid he'll open Pandora's box if he uses the word "ban". I'll tell ya what, I don't think that basing your arguments about sex work on whether they're bannable or not is a good idea, because it's a pretty technocractic approach compared to "sex workers shouldn't face violence committed against themselves", which well and nicely excludes the vast majority of inherently exploitative/patriarchal sex work alongside child prostitution.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 22:13
|
|
|
Selling food is not prohibited, so it is perfectly possible and legal to sell cyanide-laced hamburgers and the FDA will not complain.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 22:14
|
|
|
Brainiac Five posted:And here everyone was saying I was misinterpreting you. You still are, lol. I'm curious what you see when you look at that paragraph you quoted.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 22:18
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Selling food is not prohibited, so it is perfectly possible and legal to sell cyanide-laced hamburgers and the FDA will not complain. Great analogy there my dude. Are the sex workers hamburgers in this analogy?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 22:20
|
|
|
Jizz Festival posted:You still are, lol. I'm curious what you see when you look at that paragraph you quoted. Go back to the godawful mock threads and never leave there again or God will rain fire from heaven upon you.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 22:21
|
|
|
Brainiac Five posted:Great analogy there my dude. Are the sex workers hamburgers in this analogy?
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 22:22
|
|
|
Legalisation of the sex trade, where it has happened, has improved the situation for the most exploited sex workers minimally if at all. It doesn't stop sex slavery and human trafficking. Heavily exploited sex workers can't unionise, and overall unionisation of sex workers where encouraged is quite limited. The whole policy proposal is a canard.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 22:27
|
|
|
Jizz Festival posted:You still are, lol. I'm curious what you see when you look at that paragraph you quoted. Please don't shame. Given Effectronica's reading comprehension level so far today it might qualify as child abuse.
|
|
#
?
Sep 15, 2016 23:51
|
|
|
Brainiac Five posted:Great analogy there my dude. Are the sex workers hamburgers in this analogy? Whatever allows you to avoid having actual points.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 00:28
|
|
|
I feel like legalization of sex work is the sort of thing that would definitely be a good idea if the rest of society was better, but as is it's unlikely to help much. The problem is that, no matter what protections you give sex workers, as long as poverty remains such a serious issue for millions of people there will continue to be people entering the sex work industry who would not otherwise have chosen to do so. The only economic climate where legalized sex work is a solution in and of itself is one where no one feels the sort of extreme economic pressure that would make them reluctantly choose to do sex work. That being said, I think that banning all sex work probably causes more problems than it solves. Ultimately you can't completely stop people from being sex workers, but at the same time there might be many people who don't want to be sex workers but might consider it a more viable option (that they might go on to regret) if it were legalized. My educated guess is that legalization would help more than it hurts, since it would at least help eliminate the most harmful types of sex work. Decriminalizion (for the workers) is absolutely a good idea either way. Brainiac Five posted:Pretending that all sex work is identical is a good example of the kind of malicious misuse of leftist positions by idiots which necessitates regular purges. Why do you post like this? You almost always seem to quickly resort to downright vicious name-calling, and that isn't really normal behavior. I'm not even saying this as some sort of veiled insult; my reaction to your posts is just a sense of bafflement. To use an analogy, it's sort of like if a group of people were having a heated discussion and one of them suddenly said "yeah i bet you like loving kids you fat kid-loving loser, go kill yourself you loving scum!" It feels really bizarre/unnatural and almost like it's some impulse you have trouble controlling. This isn't to say other posters don't also say insulting things, but the main difference is that the stuff you say feels genuinely hateful, like you were talking to the guy who just beat up your girlfriend or something (as opposed to just condescending, for example). While you can also see vicious insults in the comments for most Youtube videos, yours always seem to be elaborate to the point where it sounds like you're genuinely fantasizing about people suffering the various things you wish upon them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 00:32
|
|
|
Rockopolis posted:Only if they accept two clients at a time. Your avatar is amazing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 00:50
|
|
|
I don't feel that you're going to get very far reconciling anything when your starting points: "academic left", and "white working class" seem to be chosen for their mutual exclusivity.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 02:24
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Why do you post like this? You almost always seem to quickly resort to downright vicious name-calling, and that isn't really normal behavior. I'm not even saying this as some sort of veiled insult; my reaction to your posts is just a sense of bafflement. To use an analogy, it's sort of like if a group of people were having a heated discussion and one of them suddenly said "yeah i bet you like loving kids you fat kid-loving loser, go kill yourself you loving scum!" It feels really bizarre/unnatural and almost like it's some impulse you have trouble controlling. It's really curious that you think insulting people is normal but only if you do it poorly. Doing it effectively, though, that's insanity. Anyways, the kind of position where it's believed to be a moral thing to treat people nicely regardless of their politics only serves to validate bigotry. If The Kingfish can go right from guffawing about the high suicide rate among trans people in GBS to posting in a D&D thread without any ostracism, that normalizes his hateful beliefs. If, on the other hand, everyone takes the time to tell him that his mother should have aborted him if he was going to turn out like this, then his beliefs are treated as shameful ones. Now, when one person does it it doesn't work, and of course you have some sort of reason for letting the servants of what is evil infiltrate in the name of "reasonability" and not being "toxic" so you won't join in, but we must imagine Sisyphus a happy man.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 03:33
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:Your avatar is amazing.  , is it going to make a difference?Actually, relevant to this thread, something that's bothered me for a long time - can people change? How do you get people to change their beliefs? Operant conditioning? There's got to be something better.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 04:03
|
|
|
Effectronica, please, don't do this to yourself. You don't have to keep throwing yourself around, you're not helping anyone. I know this isn't who you are.Disinterested posted:I think the mistake is to think that capitalism is generative of certain social problems rather than merely giving them a particular socio-economic form for a certain moment.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 04:58
|
|
|
rudatron posted:Effectronica, please, don't do this to yourself. You don't have to keep throwing yourself around, you're not helping anyone. I know this isn't who you are. I think reading this post put me at risk of developing diabetes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 05:00
|
|
|
Whatever mister culture war, you just flame anyone who disagrees with you in the slightest.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 05:28
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:Whatever mister culture war, you just flame anyone who disagrees with you in the slightest. "culture war"
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 05:41
|
|
|
Have you considered getting help?
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 05:42
|
|
|
Grognan posted:Have you considered getting help? Turn your monitor on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 05:46
|
|
|
TomViolence posted:Legalising and regulating prostitution is not merely prohibition of another sort and it's disingenuous to suggest that's what I meant. If sex work was conducted in the open with proper oversight it would greatly reduce the incidence of child prostitution, rather than having it be part of the continuum of criminality that a black market would otherwise emerge and provide. If this step was part of an overarching plan to restructure society, the other factors which contribute to child prostitution could also be combated and the sordid and immoral industry of coercing children into the sex trade through poverty, desperation and violence could perhaps be entirely squeezed out. imo you should ban child prostitution instead
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 10:46
|
|
|
Child labour laws and age of consent laws are already in place, but aren't readily applied to prostitution because it's an underground black market. We didn't stop children working in factories by pushing the manufacturing industry underground, we did so by regulating it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 13:24
|
|
|
TomViolence posted:Child labour laws and age of consent laws are already in place, but aren't readily applied to prostitution because it's an underground black market. We didn't stop children working in factories by pushing the manufacturing industry underground, we did so by regulating it. Right. The fact that alcohol is no longer prohibited in the US does not imply approval of 10-year-olds binge-drinking. In fact, some children DO binge drink. By taking the marketplace for alcohol out of the shadows and into the spotlight where it can be regulated though, it becomes easier to prevent children from binge-drinking. When I was in high school, it was easier to score many kinds of illegal drugs than it was to get alcohol. Not that I couldn't get alcohol, but it was far less convenient to find an of-age buyer to procure a grip of vodka at a liquor store than it was to buy a bag of grass from someone's locker at school.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 13:54
|
|
|
So I've been doing some reading and I'd like to clarify the question I asked in my OP. Is it possible to reconcile the metropolitan, identity politics orientated left with the previous vanguards of the left who are uneasy about immigration and so on. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37372078 This article finishes with a surprisingly good conclusion. quote:Many one-time Labour working class supporters - perhaps those who defected to UKIP - voted to leave the EU specifically to curb immigration. Theresa May obviously thinks she can turn many of these into Conservative voters. So we have this divide that has carved up the left and made it substantially weaker. I do not believe it's just 'rootless cosmopolitan elites' who are responsible, they lost a lot through brexit. The causes have been argued and analysed many times over, and the best one really is just that globalisation is perceived to destroy what the white working class care about. This is a perception issue because most of the places that voted for this decidedly right wing policy do not have substantial amounts of immigration.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 15:33
|
|
|
Ocrassus posted:So we have this divide that has carved up the left and made it substantially weaker. I do not believe it's just 'rootless cosmopolitan elites' who are responsible, they lost a lot through brexit. The causes have been argued and analysed many times over, and the best one really is just that globalisation is perceived to destroy what the white working class care about. This is a perception issue because most of the places that voted for this decidedly right wing policy do not have substantial amounts of immigration.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 16:12
|
|
|
I'm not particularly the sure it's the 'old vanguard' that's anti-immigration, more it's just people in the center or perhaps a little left-leaning that get shifted on migrant policy, thanks to all that craziness now. I mean you link a bbc article, but Corbyn did actually campaign for Remain, not Leave. The response to anti-migrant sentiment will be different from each camp. But if you mean more broadly, no 'complete' reconciliation is possible. Either one wins or the other wins, one dictates terms while the other grumbles and complains. Right now, the grumbling is from the vanguard, as the identitarians still have the upper hand. That's true basically everywhere. The foundational philosophies are just too distinct for there to be anything other than pragmatic alliance.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 16:13
|
|
|
rudatron posted:I'm not particularly the sure it's the 'old vanguard' that's anti-immigration, more it's just people in the center or perhaps a little left-leaning that get shifted on migrant policy, thanks to all that craziness now. I mean you link a bbc article, but Corbyn did actually campaign for Remain, not Leave. The response to anti-migrant sentiment will be different from each camp. The Bennites were traditionally protectionists, drawing most of their support from unions, and so pre-Blair Labour were rather anti-migration. The accusations made of Corbyn come from the fact he was a longtime Bennite and certainly against free movement of capital. He campaigned for Remain more than any other politician but this hardly matters when he wasn't being given any airtime. The 80s Labour Left vanguard were definitely never pro-EU, and Corbyn's argument was one of general internationalism and also "doing this is a really stupid idea", rather than any underlying support for the EU, which he has long been in favour of reforming. The left in the EU have also not taken the Greece/Portugal coups well. e; The entire fault for Brexit lays with actual Worst PM Ever davey "hosed a pig" cameron for promising a referendum for no loving reason other than to pointscore against UKIP and try to pin the UKIP defections as a Labour problem.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 16:19
|
|
|
Spangly A posted:e; The entire fault for Brexit lays with actual Worst PM Ever davey "hosed a pig" cameron for promising a referendum for no loving reason other than to pointscore against UKIP and try to pin the UKIP defections as a Labour problem.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 16:29
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:Some blame can probably also be laid at the feet of the establishment in general, which really doesn't seem to have done much to dissuade the notion that Britain doesn't need Europe, creating the demand for a referendum in the first place. This is true in the sense the EU and foreigners are the scapegoat for every terrible policy that's harmed the country since the formation of the EU itself, but Britain doesn't legally acknowledge referendums or petitions as binding. Farage totally outplayed everyone by actually acknowledging this and knowing full well the tories had no way to back down once they'd said it; but the dumb gently caress shouldn't have promised the referendum in the first place. "British public wrong about nearly everything" was one of the most insightful articles written on english politics since the move to tabloid journalism decades ago. The idea of risking our entire trade structure by relying on people calling their own bullshit was a farcically bad idea, brought to you by the man who broke Libya and in the UK at least is being given a serious portion of blame for the spread of ISIS out of iraq.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2016 17:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 08:16 |
|
|
rudatron posted:Effectronica, please, don't do this to yourself. You don't have to keep throwing yourself around, you're not helping anyone. I know this isn't who you are. I'm pretty sure it is.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2016 05:38
|
|
