DTM as Fuck - 'Ruining' an M3 - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > DTM as Fuck - 'Ruining' an M3

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

As most know I have an unhealthy obsession with the BMW E30 chassis cars, it runs in the family. Dad and I started looking for a turn key E30 M3 race car last fall to replace out haggard Chump/WRL E30 that we will be retiring and selling this winter. We're taking a break from racing but still wanted to do some track days, instructing and other poo poo. After not finding anything turn key that we liked I decided to pick up a project because I'm an idiot.

So I bought a race car rolling chassis and an engine. They aren't supposed to work together at all. This is my first engine swap and likely way more of a project than I am anticipating. Either way it'll be fun and I'll need all the help I can get.

I'll probably also have general car and garage stuff going on that will end up in this thread. Garage needs a clean and reorganize, truck needs to be lowered, VW needs a suspension refresh, 320i needs Megasquirt, etc.

The Car
Car is a 1988 E30 M3 that was gutted and started being turned into a track car 10+ years ago. Guy that started the work ran into some financial trouble and had to sell the car quick. It was sold and sat at one of the top US E30 M3 shops for the past 10 years largely untouched. Owner of the shop pulled the S52 that was in it planning to put in a S54 but never got around to it. He sent out an email this spring selling it and I picked it up a couple months ago then promptly didn't do poo poo with it.

List of goodies from his listing:

code:

-Full 10 point cage, with many extra reinforcement parts added on. Emulating a DTM cage of the period. Extras include:
	-Triangulationto front & rear shock towers
	-Cross bar between reinforced rear shock towers
	-Double redundant reinforcement (with cross mount) to front shock towers
	-Cross dash bar with redundant tubes going behind front shock towers to front sub frame mount area
	-Front downtubes are tied into A pillars
	-Rear downtubes are tied into rear subframe mount points
-Willwood top hinged pedal box with biasing cable
-AP 4 pot calipers front & new AP 2 pot calipers rear
	-All fixed (non-floating) mounting
	-Floating front discs 330x28mm
	-Spare rebuild kits also on hand
	-1 brake & 1 clutch master cylinder missing
-Front Gruppe N coil-over Bilstein 300/300 struts with coil-over & tender springs
-Ohlin�s TT44 Rear Triple adjustable, external reservoir shocks
	-Correct length & travel
-Many extra Hyperco race quality springs
-Roll center spacers added under front struts to knuckles
-Z3 power steering rack
-Quick disconnect steering hub, missing upper half
-Genuine BMW cockpit adjustable front & rear swaybars
	-Missing cockpit cables & levers
-Rear trailing arms with new bushings and cross bracing
-Aluminum rear subframe mounts
-Custom metal built in (fully enclosed) race battery box
	-Mounted on aft right floor
-SPA lightweight rearview mirror & 1 new spare
-Genuine DTM side mirrors
-Custom fully removable front splitter
-Hole & brackets for ATL fuel cell
	-fueling door on rear panel
-Metal cage support for external rear wing
-Front hood & rear decklid are fiberglass
-Lower � of carbon air box
-Setrab Oil cooler & Goodridge -10 lines
-DTA Fast E48EXP (older) standalone engine management system
	-Raychem Mil-Spec wiring
	-MS3320 circuit breakers
	-Unfinished harness never installed or used
-Numerous Mil-Spec Deutche connectors & steering wheel mountable MS2011 push-buttons
-Magnecor Ignition wire set
-Numerous A/N fittings & lines
-Clean TN title

The Engine
So I'd love to throw in a proper s14 but in an attempt to be at least a little financially responsible that is not going to happen. I looked at a lot of options and ended up deciding on the F20C out of a Honda S2000.

Engine is from a 2002 AP1 with 31k miles. I have engine, transmission, ecu, fuse box, engine and bay wiring harness, radiator, stock intake and some miscellaneous hardware. I will need to do the AP2 retainers and oil squirters so I don't blow the thing up too quickly.

F20 was picked because it makes good power (240hp), is light (426lb with trans), has a nice high rev limit and wasn't too expensive. E30's handle best with a light engine in front, I've driven everything from M10 to S54 to M60 powered cars and the lighter the engine the better. I also looked at building a M42 stroker, rotary, newer I4 BMW engines and several other options.

Stuff
So now the fun stuff...this engine will not fit without modifying things. The steering rack in the s2k sits in front of the engine, in an e30 chassis the oil pan interferes with the subframe and steering rack. In order to place the engine as low and as far back as possible you need to modify the oil pan or subframe, if not the hood will not close. I plan to modify the subframe and move the steering rack (as little as possible) to place the engine as low and far back as I can get it. In addition to this I'll be attempting to line up the shifter turret with the stock cutout in the e30 body.

Plan is initial test fit with and without the oil pan installed. I will be taking a ton of measurements and pictures of this for later reference. Once I determine where the engine will like up with the subframe I will make temporary mounts. I'll make a simple jig to locate the mounting points for the subframe to body and chop out the center section that interferes with the oil pan. Then stick engine on a stand upside-down, mount what's left of the subframe and start piecing things together. Sounds simple right???

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Mar 18, 2017

# ? Sep 13, 2016 14:38

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 16:46

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

So the kind of good news is this has been done before and I've talked to the person that did it. He has over 40k on this swap and it's his daily driver. He modified the oil pan for more clearance then pushed the steering rack into the subframe a bit. This is an option I'm looking at but I'd rather not modify the oil pan this way since it reduces volume and makes adding a pan baffle a little more difficult.

Some helpful things he told me. He fought with the factory wiring and stuff for a long time, hes in CA and needed to pass inspection which I won't. He used the stock S2000 radiator, I got one with my swap and may use it. He fought with a two piece driveshaft for a while before getting a custom one made. Stock S2000 engine mount arms with OEM E30 engine mounts, I will probably go this route but use poly engine mounts. Might also look at making custom mount arms to get the engine lower and exactly where I want it.

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Sep 13, 2016

# ? Sep 13, 2016 14:39

SuperDucky: May 13, 2007; by exmarx

Yes! Subbed.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 14:55

Wrar: Sep 9, 2002; Soiled Meat

This is going to be awesome gently caress any haters.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 14:59

PaintVagrant: Apr 13, 2007; ~ the ultimate driving machine ~

Please post screenshots of other forums rage

# ? Sep 13, 2016 15:01

scuz: Aug 29, 2003; You can't be angry ALL the time!; Fun Shoe

PaintVagrant posted:

Please post screenshots of other forums rage

Hoping for much, much of this, preferably on the level of TheSamba hate directed towards Gierskogul's Bus.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 15:11

Boaz MacPhereson: Jul 11, 2006; Day 12045 Ht10hands 180lbs
No Name
No lumps No Bumps Full life Clean
Two good eyes No Busted Limbs
Piss OK Genitals intact
Multiple scars Heals fast
O NEGATIVE HI OCTANE
UNIVERSAL DONOR
Lone Road Warrior Rundown
on the Powder Lakes V8
No guzzoline No supplies
ISOLATE PSYCHOTIC
Keep muzzled...

PaintVagrant posted:

Please post screenshots of other forums rage

This please. That poo poo sustains me and keeps me warm at night.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 15:16

KaiserSchnitzel: Feb 23, 2003; Hey baby I think we Havel lot in common

This is racially unacceptable!

-BMW Master race member

Edit: RACE-ially
Edit 2: RICE-ially

# ? Sep 13, 2016 15:29

beep-beep car is go: Apr 11, 2005; I can just eyeball this, right?

Like I said on FB, you need a custom plate for that. Something like L8R H8R. I can't wait to hear it.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 15:34

OBAMNA PHONE: Aug 7, 2002

have you looked into getting a custom built tubular subframe by the arc asylum dude? That looks like its the way to go

# ? Sep 13, 2016 15:44

meatpimp: May 15, 2004; Psst -- Wanna buy

EVERYWHERE
some high-quality thread's DESTROYED!

A+ project.

With this and A5h's LSM3, AI is going to be known as the M3 ruiners. And I can't think of a better thing.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 15:46

Fuelslt1: Jun 23, 2007; Maybe if I sell enough undercoating, I'll eventually stop being a gigantic prick.

Please continue.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 15:49

Seat Safety Switch: May 27, 2008; MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.; Pillbug

I feel like this could be ruined much more thoroughly. Maybe buy some Japanese adhesives for the interior?

# ? Sep 13, 2016 15:53

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

PaintVagrant posted:

Please post screenshots of other forums rage

Oh there will be rage I'm sure of it. I'll be posting to R3v (e30), s2ki (s2k) and possibly one of the e30 m3 specific forums. May complete the swap then reveal it's a M3 chassis for maximum rage.

Seat Safety Switch posted:

I feel like this could be ruined much more thoroughly. Maybe buy some Japanese adhesives for the interior?

What and replace my superior German adhesives? Also what interior?

BraveUlysses posted:

have you looked into getting a custom built tubular subframe by the arc asylum dude? That looks like its the way to go

I've talked with him a bit, we might put something together. I plan on making something pretty similar to what he makes anyway.

For reference here's his for S54 swap:

That picture brings up one thing I need to figure out, the steering rack. Stock the E30 rack sits rearward of tie rod connection point (I need to measure how far), it is VERY likely I'm going to have to move the steering rack to make this fit. Say the stock rack center line is 1.5 inches behind the tie rod points, if I move it to 1.5 inches ahead how much would I gently caress my steering/suspension geometry?

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Sep 13, 2016

# ? Sep 13, 2016 16:01

scuz: Aug 29, 2003; You can't be angry ALL the time!; Fun Shoe

NitroSpazzz posted:

Also what interior?

Get all kindsa people upset at you and swap in a mk2 GTI interior :getin:

# ? Sep 13, 2016 16:03

Terrible Robot: Jul 2, 2010; FRIED CHICKEN; Slippery Tilde

Wrar posted:

This is going to be awesome gently caress any haters.

PaintVagrant posted:

Please post screenshots of other forums rage

I love cross manufacturer driveline swaps, especially when they are well matched for each other. This should be a ridiculously fun car when it's all done.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 16:10

Dagen H: Mar 19, 2009; Hogertrafikomlaggningen

Seat Safety Switch posted:

I feel like this could be ruined much more thoroughly.

Mopar six-pack scoop.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 16:11

sharkytm: Oct 9, 2003; Ba

By

Sharkytm doot doo do doot do doo; Fallen Rib

Masterful plan! Best Honda engine in a great BMW chassis... Perfect.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 16:29

Nodoze: Aug 17, 2006; If it's only for a night I can live without you

This is a good use of an F20C. I don't think S2KI will mind this one but I bet the BMW forums will be pretty salty

# ? Sep 13, 2016 16:33

Wrar: Sep 9, 2002; Soiled Meat

Nodoze posted:

This is a good use of an F20C. I don't think S2KI will mind this one but I bet the BMW forums will be pretty salty

Good. BMW engines are overpriced pains in the rear end.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 16:43

MustardFacial: Jun 20, 2011; George Russel's
Official Something Awful Account
Lifelong Tory Voter

Hater spotted!

I showed this thread to a guy in my programming class who is into cars. He called you "a fucktard" and said "it's blasphemy to put a Honda into a BMW."

I love this car already.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 16:43

Boaz MacPhereson: Jul 11, 2006; Day 12045 Ht10hands 180lbs
No Name
No lumps No Bumps Full life Clean
Two good eyes No Busted Limbs
Piss OK Genitals intact
Multiple scars Heals fast
O NEGATIVE HI OCTANE
UNIVERSAL DONOR
Lone Road Warrior Rundown
on the Powder Lakes V8
No guzzoline No supplies
ISOLATE PSYCHOTIC
Keep muzzled...

MustardFacial posted:

Hater spotted!

I showed this thread to a guy in my programming class who is into cars. He called you "a fucktard" and said "it's blasphemy to put a Honda into a BMW."

I love this car already.

Requesting updates from classmate when thread is updated.

Dagen H posted:

Mopar six-pack scoop.

Air Grabber scoop. With decals.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 16:49

Seat Safety Switch: May 27, 2008; MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.; Pillbug

MustardFacial posted:

Hater spotted!

I showed this thread to a guy in my programming class who is into cars. He called you "a fucktard" and said "it's blasphemy to put a Honda into a BMW."

He probably drives a BMW on a student income so the joke is on him already.

Seat Safety Switch fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Sep 13, 2016

# ? Sep 13, 2016 16:54

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

My only requirement is that you get a 'Tripartite Pact' or 'Berlin Pact' bumper sticker to maximize the German-Japan mix here.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 16:56

Lightbulb Out: Apr 28, 2006; slack jawed yokel

Only good can come from putting a lightweight motor in an E30 M3.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 16:59

meatpimp: May 15, 2004; Psst -- Wanna buy

EVERYWHERE
some high-quality thread's DESTROYED!

Dagen H posted:

Mopar six-pack scoop.

~~Hockeypuck~~ Hockeystick stripe with modified "Rumble Bee" decal. Make it a "ruMble 3" and have the hockey puck change to ////M stripes over the wing.

meatpimp fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Sep 13, 2016

# ? Sep 13, 2016 17:00

scuz: Aug 29, 2003; You can't be angry ALL the time!; Fun Shoe

Put an Alfa grill/side mirrors on it and go full "Axles of Evil"

meatpimp posted:

Hockeypuck stripe with modified "Rumble Bee" decal. Make it a "ruMble 3" and have the hockey puck change to ////M stripes over the wing.

Oo, that's good.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 17:06

Applebees Appetizer: Jan 23, 2006

Paint the rising sun flag on the roof.

Awesome project dude, keeping an eye on this for sure.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 17:11

InitialDave: Jun 14, 2007; I Want To Believe.

Ok, this is cool, but as with any other heavily-modded E30 M3, I have to ask; wouldn't it be cheaper to sell the M3 shell and start with a cooking model E30? There is a serious price discrepancy.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 17:18

beep-beep car is go: Apr 11, 2005; I can just eyeball this, right?

leica posted:

Paint the rising sun flag on the roof.

Awesome project dude, keeping an eye on this for sure.

"Commandant Lee"

# ? Sep 13, 2016 17:22

scuz: Aug 29, 2003; You can't be angry ALL the time!; Fun Shoe

Shampoo posted:

"Commandant Lee"

Commandant Li

# ? Sep 13, 2016 17:23

MustardFacial: Jun 20, 2011; George Russel's
Official Something Awful Account
Lifelong Tory Voter

leica posted:

Paint the rising sun flag on the roof.

Awesome project dude, keeping an eye on this for sure.

Rising sun with an iron cross in the middle

# ? Sep 13, 2016 17:59

mekilljoydammit: Jan 28, 2016; Me have motors that scream to 10,000rpm. Me have more cars than Pick and Pull

Jesus poo poo, TT44s in the rear? Proper bits. You know they have TTX front strut setups too right? Just a bit of fab...

(and probably doubling the cost of the shell)

Nice basis and cool idea. Quick thing on the todo though - you don't need a bias valve with a pedal box that has a movable pivot. Because, you know, I'm sure that will make or break the bank.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 18:05

Somewhat Heroic: Oct 11, 2007; (Insert Mad Max related text)

leica posted:

Paint the rising sun flag on the roof.

Do this. For the interior I would suggest a hipster transplant VW plaid interior. Troll all the purists in all the best ways.

An alternative to :psyduck:

everyone would be a graphic scheme similar to this:

# ? Sep 13, 2016 18:06

Applebees Appetizer: Jan 23, 2006

InitialDave posted:

Ok, this is cool, but as with any other heavily-modded E30 M3, I have to ask; wouldn't it be cheaper to sell the M3 shell and start with a cooking model E30? There is a serious price discrepancy.

But there wouldn't be nearly enough nerd rage with just a regular E30 :colbert:

[e] OP you need to document every negative comment and threats of physical violence for the thread.

Applebees Appetizer fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Sep 13, 2016

# ? Sep 13, 2016 18:13

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Dagen H posted:

Mopar six-pack scoop.

Hmm

Wrar posted:

Good. BMW engines are overpriced pains in the rear end.

I priced out a M42 stroker (to keep with the high revving I4 idea) and was sitting around 5k to hit 200hp at the crank. So started looking at other options and this popped into my head for some reason. S50/52 or even S54 is the obvious answer but these cars just handle so much better without the extra weight on the nose.

MustardFacial posted:

I showed this thread to a guy in my programming class who is into cars. He called you "a fucktard" and said "it's blasphemy to put a Honda into a BMW."

That's the reaction I'm expecting from most people. My Dad thought it was stupid as hell until I explained the power/weight of the F20 and how it's kind of a modern S14, then he saw the light.

CommieGIR posted:

My only requirement is that you get a 'Tripartite Pact' or 'Berlin Pact' bumper sticker to maximize the German-Japan mix here.

Stickers add power!

meatpimp posted:

Hockeypuck stripe with modified "Rumble Bee" decal. Make it a "ruMble 3" and have the hockey puck change to ////M stripes over the wing.

InitialDave posted:

Ok, this is cool, but as with any other heavily-modded E30 M3, I have to ask; wouldn't it be cheaper to sell the M3 shell and start with a cooking model E30? There is a serious price discrepancy.

Oh it definitely would save a bit but this thing fell into my lap for basically the price of suspension and the cage.

mekilljoydammit posted:

Nice basis and cool idea. Quick thing on the todo though - you don't need a bias valve with a pedal box that has a movable pivot. Because, you know, I'm sure that will make or break the bank.

leica posted:

[e] OP you need to document every negative comment and threats of physical violence for the thread.

Planning on it

I should mention this arrived a couple weeks ago. OEM Sport Evo wing, DTM92 flap...

# ? Sep 13, 2016 18:34

InitialDave: Jun 14, 2007; I Want To Believe.

NitroSpazzz posted:

Oh it definitely would save a bit but this thing fell into my lap for basically the price of suspension and the cage.

Well, fair enough then. Maybe it's not so bad in the states, but here a reasonable base-model 2 door E30 is like �2k and an M3 is �35k.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 18:41

PaintVagrant: Apr 13, 2007; ~ the ultimate driving machine ~

Paint it like the general lee for the most rage

# ? Sep 13, 2016 21:29

OBAMNA PHONE: Aug 7, 2002

played out

# ? Sep 13, 2016 22:15

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 16:46

InitialDave: Jun 14, 2007; I Want To Believe.

Ventil zeitliche anpassung elektronische steuerung gerade gekickt im yah.

# ? Sep 13, 2016 23:24

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