DTM as Fuck - 'Ruining' an M3 - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > DTM as Fuck - 'Ruining' an M3

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

As most know I have an unhealthy obsession with the BMW E30 chassis cars, it runs in the family. Dad and I started looking for a turn key E30 M3 race car last fall to replace out haggard Chump/WRL E30 that we will be retiring and selling this winter. We're taking a break from racing but still wanted to do some track days, instructing and other poo poo. After not finding anything turn key that we liked I decided to pick up a project because I'm an idiot.

So I bought a race car rolling chassis and an engine. They aren't supposed to work together at all. This is my first engine swap and likely way more of a project than I am anticipating. Either way it'll be fun and I'll need all the help I can get.

I'll probably also have general car and garage stuff going on that will end up in this thread. Garage needs a clean and reorganize, truck needs to be lowered, VW needs a suspension refresh, 320i needs Megasquirt, etc.

The Car
Car is a 1988 E30 M3 that was gutted and started being turned into a track car 10+ years ago. Guy that started the work ran into some financial trouble and had to sell the car quick. It was sold and sat at one of the top US E30 M3 shops for the past 10 years largely untouched. Owner of the shop pulled the S52 that was in it planning to put in a S54 but never got around to it. He sent out an email this spring selling it and I picked it up a couple months ago then promptly didn't do poo poo with it.

List of goodies from his listing:

code:

-Full 10 point cage, with many extra reinforcement parts added on. Emulating a DTM cage of the period. Extras include:
	-Triangulationto front & rear shock towers
	-Cross bar between reinforced rear shock towers
	-Double redundant reinforcement (with cross mount) to front shock towers
	-Cross dash bar with redundant tubes going behind front shock towers to front sub frame mount area
	-Front downtubes are tied into A pillars
	-Rear downtubes are tied into rear subframe mount points
-Willwood top hinged pedal box with biasing cable
-AP 4 pot calipers front & new AP 2 pot calipers rear
	-All fixed (non-floating) mounting
	-Floating front discs 330x28mm
	-Spare rebuild kits also on hand
	-1 brake & 1 clutch master cylinder missing
-Front Gruppe N coil-over Bilstein 300/300 struts with coil-over & tender springs
-Ohlin�s TT44 Rear Triple adjustable, external reservoir shocks
	-Correct length & travel
-Many extra Hyperco race quality springs
-Roll center spacers added under front struts to knuckles
-Z3 power steering rack
-Quick disconnect steering hub, missing upper half
-Genuine BMW cockpit adjustable front & rear swaybars
	-Missing cockpit cables & levers
-Rear trailing arms with new bushings and cross bracing
-Aluminum rear subframe mounts
-Custom metal built in (fully enclosed) race battery box
	-Mounted on aft right floor
-SPA lightweight rearview mirror & 1 new spare
-Genuine DTM side mirrors
-Custom fully removable front splitter
-Hole & brackets for ATL fuel cell
	-fueling door on rear panel
-Metal cage support for external rear wing
-Front hood & rear decklid are fiberglass
-Lower � of carbon air box
-Setrab Oil cooler & Goodridge -10 lines
-DTA Fast E48EXP (older) standalone engine management system
	-Raychem Mil-Spec wiring
	-MS3320 circuit breakers
	-Unfinished harness never installed or used
-Numerous Mil-Spec Deutche connectors & steering wheel mountable MS2011 push-buttons
-Magnecor Ignition wire set
-Numerous A/N fittings & lines
-Clean TN title

The Engine
So I'd love to throw in a proper s14 but in an attempt to be at least a little financially responsible that is not going to happen. I looked at a lot of options and ended up deciding on the F20C out of a Honda S2000.

Engine is from a 2002 AP1 with 31k miles. I have engine, transmission, ecu, fuse box, engine and bay wiring harness, radiator, stock intake and some miscellaneous hardware. I will need to do the AP2 retainers and oil squirters so I don't blow the thing up too quickly.

F20 was picked because it makes good power (240hp), is light (426lb with trans), has a nice high rev limit and wasn't too expensive. E30's handle best with a light engine in front, I've driven everything from M10 to S54 to M60 powered cars and the lighter the engine the better. I also looked at building a M42 stroker, rotary, newer I4 BMW engines and several other options.

Stuff
So now the fun stuff...this engine will not fit without modifying things. The steering rack in the s2k sits in front of the engine, in an e30 chassis the oil pan interferes with the subframe and steering rack. In order to place the engine as low and as far back as possible you need to modify the oil pan or subframe, if not the hood will not close. I plan to modify the subframe and move the steering rack (as little as possible) to place the engine as low and far back as I can get it. In addition to this I'll be attempting to line up the shifter turret with the stock cutout in the e30 body.

Plan is initial test fit with and without the oil pan installed. I will be taking a ton of measurements and pictures of this for later reference. Once I determine where the engine will like up with the subframe I will make temporary mounts. I'll make a simple jig to locate the mounting points for the subframe to body and chop out the center section that interferes with the oil pan. Then stick engine on a stand upside-down, mount what's left of the subframe and start piecing things together. Sounds simple right???

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Mar 18, 2017

# ¿ Sep 13, 2016 14:38

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 04:31

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

So the kind of good news is this has been done before and I've talked to the person that did it. He has over 40k on this swap and it's his daily driver. He modified the oil pan for more clearance then pushed the steering rack into the subframe a bit. This is an option I'm looking at but I'd rather not modify the oil pan this way since it reduces volume and makes adding a pan baffle a little more difficult.

Some helpful things he told me. He fought with the factory wiring and stuff for a long time, hes in CA and needed to pass inspection which I won't. He used the stock S2000 radiator, I got one with my swap and may use it. He fought with a two piece driveshaft for a while before getting a custom one made. Stock S2000 engine mount arms with OEM E30 engine mounts, I will probably go this route but use poly engine mounts. Might also look at making custom mount arms to get the engine lower and exactly where I want it.

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Sep 13, 2016

# ¿ Sep 13, 2016 14:39

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

PaintVagrant posted:

Please post screenshots of other forums rage

Oh there will be rage I'm sure of it. I'll be posting to R3v (e30), s2ki (s2k) and possibly one of the e30 m3 specific forums. May complete the swap then reveal it's a M3 chassis for maximum rage.

Seat Safety Switch posted:

I feel like this could be ruined much more thoroughly. Maybe buy some Japanese adhesives for the interior?

What and replace my superior German adhesives? Also what interior?

BraveUlysses posted:

have you looked into getting a custom built tubular subframe by the arc asylum dude? That looks like its the way to go

I've talked with him a bit, we might put something together. I plan on making something pretty similar to what he makes anyway.

For reference here's his for S54 swap:

That picture brings up one thing I need to figure out, the steering rack. Stock the E30 rack sits rearward of tie rod connection point (I need to measure how far), it is VERY likely I'm going to have to move the steering rack to make this fit. Say the stock rack center line is 1.5 inches behind the tie rod points, if I move it to 1.5 inches ahead how much would I gently caress my steering/suspension geometry?

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Sep 13, 2016

# ¿ Sep 13, 2016 16:01

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Dagen H posted:

Mopar six-pack scoop.

Hmm

Wrar posted:

Good. BMW engines are overpriced pains in the rear end.

I priced out a M42 stroker (to keep with the high revving I4 idea) and was sitting around 5k to hit 200hp at the crank. So started looking at other options and this popped into my head for some reason. S50/52 or even S54 is the obvious answer but these cars just handle so much better without the extra weight on the nose.

MustardFacial posted:

I showed this thread to a guy in my programming class who is into cars. He called you "a fucktard" and said "it's blasphemy to put a Honda into a BMW."

That's the reaction I'm expecting from most people. My Dad thought it was stupid as hell until I explained the power/weight of the F20 and how it's kind of a modern S14, then he saw the light.

CommieGIR posted:

My only requirement is that you get a 'Tripartite Pact' or 'Berlin Pact' bumper sticker to maximize the German-Japan mix here.

Stickers add power!

meatpimp posted:

Hockeypuck stripe with modified "Rumble Bee" decal. Make it a "ruMble 3" and have the hockey puck change to ////M stripes over the wing.

InitialDave posted:

Ok, this is cool, but as with any other heavily-modded E30 M3, I have to ask; wouldn't it be cheaper to sell the M3 shell and start with a cooking model E30? There is a serious price discrepancy.

Oh it definitely would save a bit but this thing fell into my lap for basically the price of suspension and the cage.

mekilljoydammit posted:

Nice basis and cool idea. Quick thing on the todo though - you don't need a bias valve with a pedal box that has a movable pivot. Because, you know, I'm sure that will make or break the bank.

leica posted:

[e] OP you need to document every negative comment and threats of physical violence for the thread.

Planning on it

I should mention this arrived a couple weeks ago. OEM Sport Evo wing, DTM92 flap...

# ¿ Sep 13, 2016 18:34

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

InitialDave posted:

Ventil zeitliche anpassung elektronische steuerung gerade gekickt im yah.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2016 00:49

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

jamal posted:

Hood scoops bad, hood louvers good.

Can you use cameras instead of side mirrors for less drag?

Louver-ish already, but more just vented. Fiberglass hood is beat to poo poo and the vent isn't attached but I'll probably just patch the holes, mount the vent and run it for a while.

I'm not building for a class or series other than possibly WRL so I can do pretty much anything I want.

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Sep 14, 2016

# ¿ Sep 14, 2016 11:42

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Was supposed to meet a guy to look at the 928 but he had something come up which gave me some time to kill. Sat down and took inventory of the boxes of miscellaneous stuff that came with the car.

Box 1: $500 mirror, bag-o-nutserts, AN fittings, relays, front camber plates (I think), mounting brackets for something

Bag 1: Recaro seat mounts/adapters - these didn't come with the car, I picked them up a while ago

Box 2: Brake calipers, rear caliper adapters, pads, caliper rebuild kits, miscellaneous brake and fuel lines

Box 3: Oh god so many wires... Incomplete wiring harness, injector rail, plug wires, DTA engine management system & wiring diagram, diagrams for the DTM/Gruppe A cockpit adjustable swaybars, big bag of rivets, wire wrap, switch panel then a bunch of connectors and other wiring stuff.

Bonus regular E30 front pad compared to what's going on this thing

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Sep 14, 2016

# ¿ Sep 14, 2016 21:33

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Phone posted:

Why not a K24? Same HP, significantly more torque, less trans/diff bashing.

This was discussed in the BMW a bit. Largely because I had kind of decided I was going f20/22 and partially because STOCK a k24 makes less power and doesn't come in a RWD format (that I'm aware of). All make less power going off of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine#K24

I'm sure I could build up a k24 or some hybrid for a lot more power but I'm going for reliable stock power for now. At some point down the road I may look at supercharging this or building a different engine.

On a side note I'm surprised how cheap this thing sold and mad I wasn't at a computer towards auction end. I would have been bidding then trying to figure out how I'm importing it if I had been.
$13750 for a S14 powered, track prepped car is stupid cheap. Even with the previous damage and it being in Canada I expected it to end in the 18-20 range. http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1989-bmw-m3-8/

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Sep 16, 2016

# ¿ Sep 16, 2016 13:23

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Huh good to know, may look at that. Would be pretty easy to sell this what I paid.

Vtec badge is definitely happening along with likely a 320is badge

# ¿ Sep 16, 2016 15:34

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

InitialDave posted:

I didn't think you got those out there? Or is your 320iS an M20 car?

We didn't get the S14 powered 320is in the US...or a M20 version. We didn't get poo poo!

# ¿ Sep 17, 2016 00:29

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

PaintVagrant posted:

I assume some sort of adapter plate exists to convert the k series to an f series trans?

There are adapters yes

jamal posted:

The point of the 320 badge is that it has a 2.0 you idiots.
Personally i am all about clean and only what is functional and no badging. I even have a whole website that i never post on about it.

Yes and your site is good poo poo

Mini, half assed update before I crash for the night. We did a bunch of test fitting with and without the oil pan as well as with and without the steering rack mounted. No oil pan or steering rack and the thing drops in and lines up really nice. Both mounts were one inch back and inward from the e30 mount points on the subframe, engine two inches from firewall and shifter lined up perfect. Was very encouraging. Steering rack is going to be a pain in the rear end, other things look like they should be pretty simple.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2016 01:50

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Mcqueen posted:

What is this?

Alarbus posted:

https://www.amazon.com/Wera-Koloss-Square-Ratchet-Hammer/dp/B004ISLNQA

Buy the extension, always buy the extension. With it this thing works better at breaking loose stuck fasteners than my electric impact

Mcqueen posted:

OH MY GOD.

everdave posted:

No why do you post this I don't need this BUT I NEED THIS drat you

You may be wondering 'why do I need an ratchet good for 600Nm that doubles as a hammer?' The answer is because everyone does. No it isn't cheap but after buying it I haven't used my other ratchets unless the head of this one is too big to fit. Plus it's a loving ratchet that is designed to be used as a hammer!

I also HIGHLY recommend the engineer pliers in that photo, they're designed specifically to grip screws and work amazing - https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B002L6HJAA

some texas redneck posted:

From the factory, you would be correct.

However, the K24 is apparently gaining traction (.....) as a swap option for Miatas, and we even have a K24 swapped Miata thread among us!

I mean, it's not a cheap swap, and it's probably a bit more involved than a F20 swap, but you can definitely convert a K series to RWD duty. It just takes all of the

I read a few swap and build thread for people putting K24s in Miatas, S2000s and other cars. Using a adapter kit like this https://www.balladesports.com/products/hondas2000/s2000_engine/k-series-to-s2000-transmission-adapter-plate would work. Even with that being available, the cheapness of a stock K24 and the amount of aftermarket support I'm pretty drat settled on the F20 for the time being. When/If I blow this one up I might go with a K24 in the search for more power.

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Sep 18, 2016

# ¿ Sep 18, 2016 10:43

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Double post for a real update. Yesterday was a good day, brother came over and we made some serious progress.

First things first front of the driveshaft was still attached thanks to a stubborn bolt. I had been spraying it daily in knock'er loose penetrating fluid in hopes of easy extraction. This didn't work so I cut a slit it in for a flat blade, this didn't work either. So I cut off the head as flush I could and used a punch and my Wera ratched to smack it off. Then wrapped some foam and painters tape around the output to avoid beating the poo poo out of it too bad.

Before starting anything I removed this adapter from the oil pan and loosened all the oil pan mounting bolts so it would be easier to remove later. Also loosened the steering rack mounts and steering shaft hardware. Stuck the front end of the car or wheel dollies to get enough height for the engine hoist arms to clear the control arms.

Then we started trying to fit the engine. We kept running into issues hitting the garage door top frame or the top cross member as well as getting enough angle to put the engine in. We talked about just chopping it off but I didn't really want to do that. Then my brother noticed it felt a little loose, looking closer it was just held on by rivets and a couple bolts. Drilled the rivets and got the drat thing out of the way which made the rest of our day go a lot smoother. I want to reattach this more securely than it was but also make it easily removable when I put things back together.

Once that was out of the way we tried fitting with the oil pan and steering rack. We were able to get fairly close but it was obvious the engine would sit too high (above the hood line) like this.

Removed oil pan, was happy to see no metal or other scary bits. I drained the oil and let it drip a week ago so it didn't drip on us much at all. Drug a magnet through the drained oil and it came back clean as well. Here you can see the massive oil pickup that makes things tricky and requires the huge, deep pan.

Now with the oil pan off and the steering rack dropped out of place we stuck the engine in and we were kind of amazed at how well everything lined up. Shift assembly right under shift hole, couple inches of clearance to firewall and engine mounts are close using the stock s2000 arms.

We took a bunch of pictures, drank some beer and congratulated ourselves on accomplishing something. Then we pulled the transmission and stuck the engine on a stand using some likely undersized hardware and miscellaneous junk as washers. I've ordered proper m12x1.25 x 150mm bolts to mount it since it will be on the stand for a while. Rogue Mocha Stout or whatever was decent but bitter on the aftertaste, Condor Speed Shop can koozie was excellent.

Carnage for the day was a ~~harbor freight~~ CRAFTSMAN 1/2" joint obviously not meant to be used with an impact. Oh well

AP2 oil jet bolts, valve retainers, valve keepers and a new valve cover gasket have been ordered and should show up sometime this week. I'm also ordering the subframe reinforcement kit and picking up some 1/4" steel stock. My favorite local independent BMW shop has a few spare e30 subframes so I'll be picking one of those up to work with so I can leave my current one in the car for the time being.

Bonus garage dogs. They got bored pretty fast and once it started to warm up went back to the a/c and couch. Lazy bums

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Sep 18, 2016

# ¿ Sep 18, 2016 11:53

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Raluek posted:

I didn't know Harbor Freight sold stuff that said "FTSMAN" on it

Oh poo poo good call, wonder what Craftsman's warranty is on those. Apparently they aren't made for impact guns :doh:

My brother also posted a picture of the engine in the bay to a WI car club page on facebook. There was some outrage. I'm still waiting to be accepted to the group otherwise I'll have him do some screen shots and send them to me.

He also posted it on instagram and got some responses. I need to get in touch with catuned because I wasn't able to find poo poo on them putting it in an e30, plenty about 2002 swaps though.

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Sep 18, 2016

# ¿ Sep 18, 2016 12:45

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Crustashio posted:

I know it was last page, but IMO you should really be checking geometry if planning to move the rack 3" forward. Pretty sure both ackerman and possibly bumpsteer will change, quite possibly in a significant way.

Since it's being shifted forward (and the e30 rack mounts on the forward side of the subframe) you could make a simple jig to hold the rack in place. You can check everything with some simple DIY stuff.

I'm definitely taking measurements and doing calculations so I don't screw up my handling. I'll be moving the rack as little as possible.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2016 23:59

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

TWSS posted:

That engine is clean as gently caress, I can see why you're set on getting some use out of it before community pressure forces you to drop in a ITB k24 with 14:1 compression. That being said, throw an oil pan baffle in there. With the 4-5 s2ks that have come through the shop, the ones that don't have baffles have all shown signs of oil starvation with cam lobe wear. One that has 180k kms has a better looking top end than one with 65k.

Oil pan is definitely getting a baffle, don't like tracking anything without one. From what you've seen do any stand out as more effective than the others? Haven't been ordered anything yet but am looking at what's available.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2016 01:41

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

kastein posted:

That depends. I've seen some really beautiful TIG work done on junkyard Vortec cast alloy pans by guys on the Sloppy Mechanics FB group. I think a lot of it has to do with the alloy, casting method, cleanup performed, and the person between the pedal and the torch.

I've got a welder about 5 minutes from my house that does all the specialty aluminum and titanium work for the labs around here. I'll clean up the pan the best I can then drop it off and let him work his magic. Just need to make sure I don't need to chop the pan at all first.

Digging through my suspension design books and reading up on things, should be able to do some measuring and tinkering this weekend. Might end up removing a spring and running the suspension through it's range with the rack in a few places.

Posting this here so I don't lose it, from here - http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15176&sid=aa46ffb2fc3ec8d441583a04ef0fdfa3&start=15

quote:

To wire the ECU use this guide I highlighted the ones in red that I used. I ran a separate wire to the starter form the start button.
C101 connector
1 - ignition system BLK/YEL +12v - connect to the ignition key
--2- Air conditioning- not connected
3- starter motor -BLK/WHT- +12v through starter motor switch
4- YEL/BLK +12v from ignition switch- power supply to ECM
5 -BLK/YEL +12v lambda sensor - connect to ignition key
--6- YEL/BLU air pump - not connected if you do not use air pump
7- WHT/BLU - alternator light(on the dashboard) required to get charge!
8- BLU/WHT - VSS sensor connected probably to the speedo gauge - must loop back to ecu A9
--9- YEL/RED - low pressure warning light(on the dashboard)
10- WHT/RED +12v ECM/ immobilizer light - hot at all times
--11- YEL DRL indicator light- probably check engine light but not sure- in my car it is not connected
--12- GRN/YEL - not connected
--13 - WHT/BLK - secondary air injection system- not connected
14 - BLK- ground
--15 -BRN/YEL - DATA LINK CONNECTOR - this is only one of few wires that go to data link connector- rest is probably in the ECU 32P socket.
--16- GRN/YEL air pump - not connected

Apparently that's the required connections on the C101 connector to make the engine fire and run. Need to look into the immobilizer, I've heard the chip can simply be removed but that seems too easy.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2016 13:31

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

InitialDave posted:

Do you really need to worry about it too much? It's not like it's anything structural, so if the shape fits neatly into the internal profile of the sump, it shouldn't need anything too heavy-duty to hold it in position. Even pretty poor tack welds should be just fine.

In reality no, as long as it keeps the oil where it's supposed to be I'm happy. Nothing fancy or custom made necessary. Was hoping for one to pop up used but nothing so far.

S2ki has been drat useful for getting other miscellaneous things. Have an oil filter relocation kit on the way which will make it easy to plumb in the oil cooler.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2016 18:03

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Mid-ish week update, got a bunch of parts in for the Honda. Oil jets, valve spring retainers and keepers, valve cover gasket set and Honda sealer. Not pictured valve spring compressor tool to make things easier.

I've also been talking with CAtuned about the swap and might have figured out a solution to make this whole thing a hell of a lot easier. If this works I'm guessing a lot more people are going to be looking into this swap. Parts should be here for testing this weekend.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2016 14:10

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Not a lot of progress made this week or weekend, was sick as hell most of the week and only feeling halfway decent today. Mounts to try the CAtuned option didn't show up as expected so I decided to do some maintenance on the engine. Started on the ap2 valve retainers/keepers then ran out of energy...stupid cold.

But first a Horror Freight run for some supplies

Back in the garage remove the coil on plug and valve cover bolts

Shiny!

Get that crap out of the way so you can access the valves

Use ebay f/k-series valve spring compressor to replace failure prone ap1 parts with ap2 parts. Grease helps a lot on reassembly to keep the keepers stuck on the valve stem

Drop a washer down the oil passage and cry a bit then smile when the washer is in the oil pan that's only held on by 4 bolts

Call it a day, go watch Mad Max

Also found another guy doing this swap with a custom oil pan and what sounds like a diy dry sump.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2016 16:58

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

SouthsideSaint posted:

When you say f/k would that also include the old f22 series found in accords? Because I have ahead I need to rebuild and want a tool I can use without removing the head.

Not sure if it will work on those, they weren't on the listing - http://www.ebay.com/itm/111481786950?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

If you find out it will work let me know and I can send it over once I'm done with it. Will probably be loaning it out to a few people once I finish.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2016 20:07

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

charliemonster42 posted:

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/1308-are-dry-sump-system/

Why not this? Kill two birds with one stone - no oil starvation issues and the steering rack can stay in the same spot.

Kaptainballistik posted:

I need these antirollbar Diagrams

For Crazy Assed CHU things......

And for useful Advice..... I think moving the Rack will stuff up a car that apparently has fairly good geometry. How far off the Budget is a Dry sump? That or find a competitent person with a TIG and redo the sump using the old one as the base.

It's strange but a lot of companies don't actually list the price for their dry sump stuff other than TODA at $16k (http://www.todaracingusa.com/catalog/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=202&idcategory=55) but there's a few options out there. Seems the cheaper kits have issues maintaining pressure while in VTEC or are skimping somewhere else. These drat engines move a LOT of oil in VTEC, the stock unit is good for 100L/min at 9k rpm.

Kaptainballistik I'll scan the diagrams next time I'm at work (loving cold :argh:

) and post a link for max resolution.

Also the CAtuned thing I mentioned, they said a few years ago they were able to do this swap with stock m42 mounts and everything lined up. My set of m42 mounts arrived yesterday so if I don't feel like poo poo sometime this week I'll try. I have a feeling the steering rack with still be in the way or the engine will sit too high for the hood to close.

edit: Looks like Race Engine Design in the UK (http://raceenginedesign.biz/honda.htm) is the most recommended dry sump kit for this engine. Old forum posts put the price at $2500 USD at old exchange rates. I sent them an email to see what the current price is.

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Sep 27, 2016

# ¿ Sep 27, 2016 10:55

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

BraveUlysses posted:

stock m42 engine mounts and custom arms on the motor itself? man this swap (or a KA swap) is looking better and better for my 318iS

According to the email stock m42 mounts on stock F20 s2000 motor mount arms. But from what I've seen and measured I don't think it will actually clear. I will be very very happy if it does but I think it will either sit too high to clear the hood or the oil pan will interfere with the steering rack. Basically the f20 is a super tall engine with a tall/deep oil pan, if you mount it high enough to clear the subframe/rack the hood won't close.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2016 15:56

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

TWSS posted:

If you have the money, I think designing your own mounts that utilize the smaller packaging of a dry-sump is the best idea. It would probably enable you to nestle the engine lower and closer to the firewall than you would with a stock pan.

Just trying to decide if it's worth the extra 2-3k...it probably is. This would let me mount the engine as low as possible and I wouldn't need to worry about oil starvation once I move to slicks on the car.

jamal posted:

Dailey makes an integrated pan and pump mount:

http://www.daileyengineering.com/home/honda-2/honda-f-20/

Scavenges the pan without any fittings or lines which is pretty neat.

drat that's nice, would be even nicer if they listed prices...oh well email sent

# ¿ Sep 27, 2016 20:01

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Heard back from Race Engine Design (RED), their kit is �1500 as pictured. I would need to find a suitable tank and all the lines. Stock s2k oil pan in the background for comparison.

Dailey put me in touch with one of their customers using their pan. Gave me a lot of info and pictures but no price, I'm assuming mega bucks but we'll see. Pan is 25mm at thickest part.

So I have a few options:
1) Chop pan and push steering rack into subframe like the guy in second post did. Will need a custom pan baffle (of modify one) as well as some aluminum welding on the pan obviously. Would also want custom tie rod offset pieces to make up for whatever distance the steering rack needs to be moved, similar to http://www.gktech.com/offset-steeri...-extenders.html I have a feeling this may be the swap that CAtuned was talking about using oem m42 mounts shimmed up 1/4" though they said everything fit. Probably the second cheapest option.

2) My original plan of moving steering rack forward and building a custom subframe. No pan modifications needed except a baffle. Will also need to make custom mounts for the steering rack, probably tied into the subframe and chassis rails. Not sure if I'm going to be better off removing a spring and taking measurements through the travel range at various rack positions or if I should just measure the hell out of everything and do the math to figure out the optimum position. This has the chance of completely loving up the handling of the car if I get the rack positioned wrong but is the cheapest option.

3) Dry sump. Subframe and steering rack stay as they are. RED is currently top choice as I'm assuming the Dailey is going to be something like 3k or more before the tank/lines/etc. Most other kits offered have bad reviews. Piecing together a dry sump of my own is an option as I have a local aluminum guy that could modify the pan and I know the requirements of the pump.

4) Other engine options?

Pretty sure I need to sell the drat 928 asap so I can just go dry sump and get this project rolling.

Anyway feeling a bit better so if I have energy after work I'll do some more work on the retainers. I forgot to grab the adjustable swaybar diagrams...sorry, set myself a reminder for tomorrow.

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Sep 28, 2016

# ¿ Sep 28, 2016 13:27

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

From http://www.speedracersportscars.com.au/PRBS2K.htm this guy made his own dry sump pan by chopping the oem one. Appears the F20 is becoming more popular as an engine for lotus 7 type cars and most are running a dry sump since the engine is so drat tall.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2016 14:54

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Dry sump should allow a shallow enough pan that nothing in the way of steering, suspension or subframe will have to be modified. Only possible modification would be plates welded to subframe for engine mounts.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2016 16:29

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

That's what I'm thinking. Even with the abundance of cheap used pumps on ebay "nascar dry sump" turns up some great poo poo I think I may go ahead with the RED kit. Plenty of tanks and lines on ebay for decent prices and I have some hoses and connections already. I'd maybe save a couple hundred if I pieced something together myself but I've never messed with this stuff and I'd rather try it on a cheap m10/m20 than this thing.

I'll see what kind of lead time their kit has and what size tank, hoses, etc they recommend. Would be really nice if the fittings were same size as my oil cooler, need to see if I should still run a thermostat on the oil loop. This is going to be a plumbing mess.

Do want to try the m42 mounts though just to see if by some really strange chance they work. Don't see how they could but hey I already have them so why not.

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Sep 28, 2016

# ¿ Sep 28, 2016 18:42

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Direct links to scanned adjustable sway bars:
http://i.imgur.com/MftxWZ9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mcRidMf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/REw6eYM.jpg

Highest resolution the scanner here could do, hope that works for you. I can take some better pictures of the actual bars if you'd like.

Still waiting to hear back on price for the Dailey sump, also emailing Armstrong Race Engineering (drysump.com if I can ever get their horrible website to load) for pictures of their pan and prices. RED has several in stock and can ship once they receive payment.

edit: emailed drysump, turns out my computer just hates their website. Phone loads it fine...wtf

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Sep 29, 2016

# ¿ Sep 29, 2016 11:39

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Sent an email to DMRR for more information, they sell in the US through Aviaid which is a big supplier of pump. Sent a further email to Aviaid for more info and prices. For now some pics of the DMRR pan and kit parts from Ireland.

http://aviaid.com/pdfs/032-dry-sump...es-fittings.pdf

Good news is it looks like I should have a few options

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Sep 29, 2016

# ¿ Sep 29, 2016 15:20

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Another pretty productive day. Started with taking the E28 to cars and coffee, parked next to a friends nice 6 series shark then got some fancy ethanol free gas on the way home.

Finished the valve retainers, new valve cover gasket and spark plug seals. Had to zip tie things so the rockers would stay out of the way long enough to bolt things down. Good news is none of my retainers were cracked and I managed the whole job without losing any of the new keepers.

Had to clearance the tool I picked up a bit so it would fit without removing the intake manifold. Not pretty at all but it worked.

For anyone interested here's the difference between the ap1 and ap2 parts, in all photos it's ap1 left ap2 right. Sorry my phone is garbage at taking pictures of small stuff.

We tried the CAtuned method using m42 mounts. Not stock/oem because they're $100 a piece and the same height as these Condor mounts. It's drat close to working but it won't. The hood fits but only because this is a thin composite one. The steering rack would need to be moved back at least a full inch if this was going to work. The stock exhaust also runs into one of the control arm points. For photos with the rack in the spacers that raise it 3/8" or so are gone and it's loose to move a bit. We tried different spacing and rotations of the mounts but no luck. Oh well can't say we didn't try it.

I was really hoping this would work but the rack is just too large and forward. I may end up using the m42 mounts but slightly modified to sit things lower. With that done we stuck the engine back on the stand and flipped it over so I can do the oil squirters tomorrow and probably remove the stock oil pump stuff.

Dogs 'helped'

I'm waiting to hear back from the US distributor for DMRR on pricing and kit contents, once that's done I'll make my decision. At this point the R.E.D pan and kit look like they will work the best and are the most affordable option. Dry sump will give me the most flexibility for where to put the engine and has the least risk of screwing up the handling of this thing.

I've also put in a low ball offer on a set of ITBs because race car!

# ¿ Oct 1, 2016 23:53

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

jamal posted:

Just make sure to do the math and make a spreadsheet for every part, fitting, length of hose, tanks, catch cans, etc before you make a decision. The cheapest pan and pump might not work out that way.

One upside I guess is all the kits are largely just a pan, pump, pulleys and lines to go from the pan to pump. The dry sump (ARE) kit is everything but their pan is nearly as deep as the OEM one, I may source other parts through them though. I'll probably eventually post a comparison of the various kits including what's included, price and options.

Need to decide if it's worth putting the tank all the way in the trunk for better weight distribution at the expense of longer lines or if I go with an engine bay or passenger tank.

Won't be ordering anything for a bit though. Out of town next week and don't really want 3-4k worth of stuff sitting on the front porch.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2016 09:46

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Working on getting a set of scales to borrow for a while to figure out placement of things. Oil filter relocation kit showed up yesterday, picked up a blemished ATI damper to make mounting the dry sump pulley easy. Got a quote back from Aviaid on the DMRR pan and it is very competitively priced with the RED pan. Working out some final details then probably ordering a pan, pump, bracket, pulleys and belts by the end of the week. There's a few nice tanks on ebay that I'm looking at, will probably pick one by the end of the week.

On a completely different subject this car needs some lights if I'm going to be able to drive it on the street. Just the basic headlights (hi/lo) and taillights (brake/blinker/hazards) so I've contacted a few people parting out cars about getting their lights. The question now is do I take a factory chassis harness and strip it down to what I need or do I make my own harness from scratch? I don't remember seeing a blinker/headlight stalk in the parts boxes but I may pick one up. Otherwise all controls will be on a basic fused switch panel.

edit: just realized we have several e30 part cars sitting in WI to pull parts as needed for our Chump/WRL car and I'm headed up there next week. I'll just take lights and possibly a harness from one of those.

second edit: I have an oil filter relocation kit and a big rear end oil cooler but no thermostat for the oil loop. Do I pick up a basic oil thermostat or do I try to find a filter relocation with a built in thermostat? Filter mount on the thermostat would clean up plumbing a bit and cut down on hose/fitting costs as well as lead to a cleaner overall install.

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Oct 4, 2016

# ¿ Oct 4, 2016 11:29

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Mini update: replaced the oil squirters then started looked at removing the factory oil pump.

Start with this, remove the baffle dropping a bolt into an oil passage

Go pick up retrieval tools to get the bolt without puling the valve cover back off and for

Put paper towels in the oil passages like I should have the first time

Once that's off and the lost bolt removed replace the oil squirter bolts with the upgraded AP2 units. All easy except for the one under the oil pump. I could have waited until I pulled the pump but I wanted to get these knocked out.

AP1 left/top, AP2 right/bottom

Need to remove the stock pump but can't get the rank/damper bolt out. Really tempted to just cut the chain and remove the tensioners using a wrench or something. Don't really feel like pulling the whole lower timing cover if I can avoid it.

Waiting on final quote for the DMRR and the RED sump kits. Going with a 3 gallon tank from eBay, can get a big tank with heater bands and possibly a breather tank for the price I'd pay for a 2 gallon tank new.

I'm trying to figure out minimum switch panel buttons. I'm using the stock E30 blinker/high beam stalk. Everything will go through a master power switch then on the panel I'm thinking the following:
Ignition - power to ECU
Start button - because racecar
Lights
~~Oil heat - want to have tank heaters automatically come on if the engine is running and oil temp is under say 160F or so but this would override, warm things up before heading out~~
Defrost/Defog - no heater core but I'll run some form of heated defrost/defog for the wind sheild
Auxiliary Fan - auto on at water temp over a certain point but want it switched as well
2x or more Switch auxiliary - for things like gopro, lap timer and cool suit

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Oct 9, 2016

# ¿ Oct 9, 2016 13:10

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

mekilljoydammit posted:

Most tank heaters are designed to run off 110V AC, FYI. Too much wattage for batteries - it's a "do in the pits" sort of thing.

Wow I'm an idiot, I saw 110v and didn't make the connection. Guess that's one less switch and wiring to worry about. A little more reading and it looks like the probe type work a lot faster than the blanket and are cheap, makes finding a tank with one already installed less of a worry.

# ¿ Oct 9, 2016 18:06

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

Pulled the factory oil pump this morning then test fitted brakes this evening. Thought I tossed an update out this morning but guess not so...

Couldn't find my bolt cutters and my other snips wouldn't do it. Filled the area with shop towels and hard drive magnets then used a cut-off wheel on the dremel. Through in ~10 seconds with minimal mess and fuss. Cleaned the area with a magnet then oily rag. Will do another oil splash and clean with the engine upright before putting things together. Ready for dry sump

Then I did some test fitting on the brakes. Found out I have super long studs which is kind of nice and glad I did this before ordering a set. The caliper fits the 17" wheels with plenty of space and the 16" (OEM E28 M5) with enough clearance to work with spacers.

Need to look at the options for 16" vs 17" race rubber and final weight.

Still waiting on final quotes from RED and DMRR/Aviaid. Headed to Road America this weekend for some Chump Car racing.

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Oct 12, 2016

# ¿ Oct 12, 2016 23:36

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

That's what I'm finding, Hoosier R6 is a 275 width 16 which won't fit. There's more used 17" wheels floating around too so I'll probably go that way. Initially I'll probably run a set of Star Specs then once I wear those out go with proper slicks.

Also can I say mekilljoydammit thanks for all the informative posts so far. I've been driving on track HPDE and more recently Chump/WRL for 14 years but nothing at the level this car is going to be...lots of learning as I go.

# ¿ Oct 12, 2016 23:56

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

There's a few guys in the area (within an hour) I should be able to borrow wheels and tires from for test fitting. Good to know they run wide. I'll pull the fender liner for more clearance but don't want to roll/pull the fenders if I don't have to.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2016 00:35

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

jamal posted:

Is that oil pump chain guide that sticks out going to be an issue with the new pan?

Did you ever get a price on the dailey pan/pump?

Also buy an engine stand already.

It shouldn't be but if it is that will be easy enough to shave down. Engine has been on a stand for all the pan work as well as valve retainers. Bought it when I bought the hoist

The Dailey pan/pump is $4425 plus shipping and includes billet alloy pan, oil pump with air separator, spacer plate, 2 Belts, pulleys and crank damper pulley ATI. It looks amazing but this is over twice the DMRR and RED pans.

The ARE drysump kit was $3843 with pan, pump, damper, brackets, pulleys/belt, tank and vent. However most reviews I found of it ranged from mediocre at best to complete garbage.

RED is 1500 UK before shipping. Includes pan, pump, pulley and belt.

Initial quote for DMRR was $3800 which included pump, pan, pulley, belt, ATI damper, tank, vent tank and oil relocation kit.

NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Oct 13, 2016

# ¿ Oct 13, 2016 08:00

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 04:31

NitroSpazzz: Dec 9, 2006; You don't need style when you've got strength!

BraveUlysses posted:

i started exploring some of the swaps that miata guys are doing and the LFX swaps really look like they're a great bargain, especially compared to the cost of the honda swaps.

LSx offers very good power and performance for the price, no denying that. I've driven a ls swapped e30 and it was a blast.

mekilljoydammit posted:

NitroSpazzz, you ever make it up to spectate at the June Sprints or anything?

I haven't but I'd like to, I've been out of the loop other than WRL lately but with this car that should change a bit. I'll mostly be doing events in the South East though. May bring it up for the occasional BIR/RA event.

jamal posted:

Ha, holy poo poo.

And yeah sorry with the things that fell in the engine and worry about getting metal shavings in the block while cutting the chain I thought you had it sitting on a tire or something.

It's barely a step up from sitting on a tire but works pretty well.

Was going to post my dry sump comparison excel yesterday when I was waiting for my flight but airport WiFi sucks and I can't get a decent screenshot on my phone.

Chilly morning in Wisconsin but it isn't snowing so we're doing better than previous races here.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2016 13:42

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > DTM as Fuck - 'Ruining' an M3

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