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kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
That sucks. What’s your plan if it gets worse?

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kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Weirdly, the gym is open every day except Christmas. I certainly canceled my classes on the 27th, but I can’t imagine the revenue is there to be worth it.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
What bothers me more is that the gym hasn’t talked about any promotions for the new year. We did start up a deal with ClassPass, but I think that’s peaked and added a few people at best. We need more heads to make the numbers work out, I think.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

OscarDiggs posted:

This might not count but is there any decent online tutorial that will teach someone the basic movements of Tai Chi to a reasonable skill level?

It's something I've wanted to do for a long while but I don't want to risk covid any time soon. But I also know that without an instructor there to point out flaws it'll be very easy to learn wrong and mess things up long term.

What are your goals/conceptions in terms of what’s right and what’s wrong? In general, for Yang style, you want to have very smooth movements that can be performed arbitrarily slowly. In almost all postures, you want your spine upright. Yang 24 is a simplified set that’s easier to memorize, though maybe leaves off some of the most aesthetic moves or transitions.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Without any martial application, and if you’re not doing push hands, then you can’t really go that wrong with just trying to copy what you see online. You can get limited by the camera angle, if you don’t get to see postures from above, behind, etc. But nothing that would prevent you from progressing from 0.

If I were talking to some rando at a party, I wouldn’t think they were any more skilled or correct if they were training only the forms from some famous instructor vs you just copying what you see in videos.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Just played several rounds of The Thrill of the Fight boxing game on Quest VR.

Initial thoughts:
- the position sensing for the two controllers is very accurate. More than enough for this kind of sim game
- the game requires a 6'x6' square for moving around. While that gives you some space to slip and pivot, it's nowhere like the working space of even a small ring. If you need space to work, this game will feel suffocating
- when a punch lands, the glove in the game stays at the contacted surface, while of course irl it travels through with no effort. You get a small haptic buzz and thud sound when the strike lands.
- the in-game heavy bag has readouts of the game's estimate for your punching power. Very short travel arm punches register just under 1000 damage in the game scale, while my fastest, most technical straight punches were about 2500. I got a freak 3500 once, but could not reproduce
- i've only boxed 3 opponents, and these of course were the worst tactically by design. Their punch speed was mediocre though their reaction time was decent
- it was easy to land a light 3 punch combo to the head after they tried some offense. Just arm punching and looking to score, not being technical. These were artificially easier than throwing the same kind of punches irl, because 1) i'm not wearing 16oz gloves and 2) I'm arm punching way more than I would dare to in an actual sparring / competition context with real head contact on the line
- when I was throwing as hard as I could, it was a little more unsatisfying. 1) you have to intentionally recover a punch that would normally stop on their guard or body, which is noticeably more tiring 2) you don't get any measure of how hard you land. There's the same small buzz no matter how hard you land

- when I was slipping and weaving really hard, the headset had enough intertia to shift my view temporarily. The FOV is narrow enough where I can lose sight of the opponent and their punches. I'm sure this varies with how much you clamp down and the headset's particular fit to your head.
- in general, seeing the opponent's punches was where depth perception broke down the most. If they land on your face or just over your head, the arm just doesn't have the obvious physical presence it does in real life. No jolting contact on your head or glove, no scraping sound on your headgear, no rattle in your teeth
- when you get hit hard in the game, your vision washes out white. That's good enough, I guess. Obviously no way to simulate how your brain feels when rocked.
- conversely, I wish I could tell how much punches or combos hurt my opponent. Their face does bruise and get beat up if you land enough punches, but their body language and breathing patterns remain the same no matter how close they are to a knockdown

- there's no biometrics other than your height. No arm length, no weight
- I'm pretty sure you can block with your gloves, but there's not much feedback that I could tell between a punch landing on your glove vs landing on your body.
- I couldn't tell if the game simulated at least solid forearms. That is, whether that part of your guard works for defense. I played the whole time thinking they would and couldn't say for sure
- I don't think the headset has enough self-vision to be able to infer the position/tilt of your torso. Obviously a huge issue in boxing for whether you think you're in a safe position or not

- you can use a normal 3d rendered environment or, much preferable to me, the actual world as captured by the Quest cameras. I find how well the opponent is rendered and matches the FOV/perspective helps with my distance perception, even though it's already more than adequate with pure VR.
Little sample from Reddit: https://packaged-media.redd.it/jl8l...af7516aafe0#t=0

- overall, this is by far the most real feeling martial arts sim game I've ever played. Hands down.
- It's far from ideal, but it's easily a much more compelling for me, a combat sports enthusiast, than any other VR exercise app I could think of. That said, I'm not sure how good of a workout it would be if you didn't know how to punch, or if you were content to "cheat" with the light punches that would still score well in their damage model

some notes on realism / being in the moment:
- early on, I did think to kick to the body a few times. That's just how much I default to thinking in punches and kicks, and how I really need to think to go punches only.
- at the end of fights, I found myself instinctively putting my glove out to my opponent. Like the feel and routine from sparring was carried over enough that my body went through the motions
- after one round where I was dead in the arms (game defaults to 2min rounds, and man, I haven't sparred regularly since 2018), I turned around to my corner and noticed there was a stool there. Turned back to my opponent and found myself sitting down. Caught myself after I had squatted through where the stool would be and before I sat on my rear end. I've never competed in boxing, but in the moment, that stool, as a solution to my needing to relax and get my breathing down, was as real as any fight I've had.
- when I won the fights, I would raise my hand as the decision was announced. I would describe the sitting on the stool, the trying to fist bump my opponent, raising my hand -- these all have a shade of self-hypnosis, like I know that's what goes on in amateur boxing, and it's nice to be able to go through those rituals in a boxing game.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
This is a really long exploration of various southern Chinese martial arts that heavily influenced Okinawa karate.
You can skip around if you just want to watch the forms demonstrations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23ARJNmZ00w
If I had one critique, it's that I wish the host would show side by side the modern karate kata equivalents.

Thanks to the fairly rigid passing down of forms (taolu / kata), it's very apparently that early karate inherited forms and application philosophy:
- close forms from White Crane (whose ancestry to Wing Chun [the same name as the city of Yongchun in the docu])
- long form from Monk Fist Boxing
- weapons (freakin tonfa and sai undiluted!) from 5 Ancestors Boxing

I've never been keen on kata, but the fact that this rigid inheritance makes attributing the influences on karate a cakewalk is both impressive and culturally valuable.

The guy I train Mongolian wrestling with has a rumination on the value of kata to your overall martial development:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aar4ymvB7fk

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Crossposting from the MMA thread

kimbo305 posted:

*Speaking of sanshou, vlogger Sensei Seth went to train with the US Sanda team. This video shows some flavor of the throws and covers how it's scored.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86RUX0jSDAs
My record against fighters shown in this video is 0-2, and it is with insane jealousy that I report that both of them medaled at Worlds this past summer.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Sherbert Hoover posted:

One of my judo senseis is also a vovinam master and started a club here from scratch last year. We finally got gear and started sparring for real and I've confirmed a couple things:

1) Side kicks work, quite well actually
2) Judo definitely works in a fistfight, even without grips since I have boxing gloves on
3) I need to start jogging

What ruleset do you spar under? What's the definition of thrown, or how do you score throws?
I teach sanshou, where you can do any throw where you don't touch a knee or worse to the ground, but you have 3 seconds from the start of a clinch to finish. In that context, people rely on entering while their opponent is still striking or distracted by striking offense and muscling through the throw. Anyone with better offbalancing technique can do a lot more in that 3 seconds, provided that they are ready for covering some defensive strikes in the clinch.
Working with boxing gloves is like no-gi plus, since you can't even grab wrists one handed. A huge part of sanshou throw repertoire is from kick catching, having a body part delivered to you with energy and already isolating them to one support leg.

Sidekicks are undervalued in the current MMA landscape cuz of the typical arts that people typically train. In Muay Thai itself, people are frequently excellent with teeps and can transfer offense and defense for that range over to sidekicks. But yeah, anyone who doesn't understand the range is offering up a few free shots to the abs until they adjust.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Sherbert Hoover posted:

No real takedown restrictions except no sacrifice throws and nothing obviously dangerous (except, strangely enough, scissor sweeps, which is crazy coming from judo where they've been banned as super dangerous for many decades, but vovinam specializes in them).

It's not a frequent move in sanshou partly cuz it's regarded as dangerous and partly cuz it doesn't score full points (the thrower falls to the ground as well). I think it's not as dangerous in a striking context only because people will be less planted on their feet and more likely to be moving around, making it easier to pick the attacked legs off the ground before an ankle or knee gets bound between the the scissoring legs. If someone stands very high and bladed, they're much more susceptible to it being done cleanly them, compared to someone who's squared up and trudging toward you.

It's like elbows in that it's hard to practice in sparring, so people who are good at it tend to have a lot of competition time where they're not afraid to throw the technique 100%.


e: wait, this technique, right?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYfr4N7FXDE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS_q0gwl1X8

In both videos, what makes it safer is if you plow them off balance by slamming the top leg into their stomach. You land that leg below the waist, then yeah, those knees are in trouble.

kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Feb 26, 2024

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Some really troubling news:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...state-1.7128425

Thoughts:
I can't find any reporting on whether Lei had a coach, or what his prior experience was. If he was training with someone, that person really failed him by not being there to pull him after his first lopsided loss. If he was self-trained or untrained, the event organizers failed him in multiple ways.
The biggest is of course running a ruleset/competition level way different and more demanding than advertised.
The second is not having anyone spot him getting beaten up and forcing him to stop.
The third is not having some assessment in the registration phase that would have filtered out someone who was grossly undertrained to compete.

I'm sure lots of people here have heard of unsanctioned low level amateur events -- smokers, etc. -- with varying degrees of safety/responsibility. At my gym, we used to run them with a trained EMT hired to help assess injury and concussion. Though the intensity level never got to anything where I was concerned about anyone's safety, it seemed the right thing to do.
I hear that USA Boxing is really really vigilant against smokers, and will ban teams/gyms for participating in them. It's kind of lovely because it's good for aspiring competitors to have a bridge between sparring people at your gym (people who you know in a familiar environment with no pressure) and that first amateur event (a lot of strangers looking to win by hurting you, possibly even a crowd watching your every flubbed move). But it's certainly reasonable given how poorly run an unsanctioned event can be. Places are evading this vigilance by advertising "open sparring" nights, meaning you spar people you don't know. I think this is perfectly legitimate as long as the ref can control the action in the ring and step in when either party goes past the agreed upon intensity.

A lot of unsanctioned amateur events have gotten by on the cheap, thinking they'd never get into trouble with how they operated, but one person's [potential] death shows how flimsy everything was.
While non-striking events are not risk free, I suspect the kind of injury potential is 20x with striking involved.

kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Mar 1, 2024

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Thirteen Orphans posted:

When the fight started the tall woman bull-rushed the other woman and knocked her clean off the platform. She did this two more times automatically making her the victor. I am not exaggerating when I say not a single attack was actually thrown.
It’s a viable scoring tactic for people who don’t have any footwork. Tim Ferriss the productivity influencer touted identifying this loophole on his way to becoming a world champion in sanshou after less than a year of training, winning exclusively on pushout sudden victory. If you watch the meager footage of him that exists, the reality is that he’s obviously an experienced wrestler who is really good at cornering you, which is not easy —
a proper lei tai is 26ft square, with at least a 6ft apron of very cushy padding around that. Picture of the leitai used for US Sanda nationals:

That’s much wider than 6ft. I’m wearing a taichi outfit to try to psyche out whoever my opponent would be (ended up being last year’s world silver medalist).

By comparison, the largest boxing ring is 24ft. If you’re a decently trained fighter, you’re not going off without plenty of advance warning. I’ve only fought on one 3 times, and only got got scored on the with a pushout once, but have been off the platform close to a dozen times on attempted pushes. When you get pushed but bring the other person off with you, it’s a no score. Even in my first leitai fight I was comfortable by the middle of the first round with standing close to the edge, baiting and looking for a counter throw.
You absolutely can land outside the padded area with force, but again, it’s uncommon an opponent would let their guard down that much. This is a clip of someone getting pushed and defending by doing a huge throw instead of just pulling the attacker off:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3Vx459Ndtl/?igsh=eWhoY2c4Z2I3dndo
Dick move but fair I suppose. No score on the pushout or throw, but the incidental damage is the reward for that throw effort. Red’s heels got an ippon level slam into that hardwood.

E: I’d much rather get pushed onto that apron than get thrown on 1” puzzle mat or even 2” wrestling mat, in terms of how hard that landing is.

kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Mar 2, 2024

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
I made this post in the Boston LAN thread for an interested poster, but given how much work it was, I might as well share it here.
Any and all commentary is welcome.

kimbo305 posted:

Engage maximum effort post reading mode.

A while back, CE asked me to analyze more clips of me sparring. While reviewing/reminiscing some old stuff for material to show my class, I found a nice session. Maybe Novum and others will enjoy it, too.
Fricking imgur shut down its video to gif feature, so I had to reactivate my Premiere sub to edit the clips. And then spent an hour writing notes.

For maximum educational effect, I'm doing the slomo gifs first and linking the live video after.

On this day, only 2 people showed up, so it was pretty grueling. On the other hand, I was in great shape relative to where I am now.
Some other general notes:
- over the years, I've mentally edited my own perception of how much my style changed over time. This round is from only 3 years into training, and honestly, it's not that different from how I fight now, with the exception of silghtly larger throw vocabulary.
- besides the really nice headgear, I'm in any ol gloves and shinguards. Can't believe I was that effective and not being a gear snob
- my sparring partner here had pretty short arms, and a relatively high telegraph punching style, so I'm punching more and with bigger combos than I usually do, to capitalize on that differential

I'm linking these as mp4s, cuz I think they're smaller to load and the sound is nice. But I dunno if they embed both desktop and app.
Slomo is anywhere from 50% - 75%, depending on how much detail is needed.
A cross means a rear straight punch, and 1-2 means a jab then a cross.
I'm in the red shirt, blue shorts.

https://i.imgur.com/e02Otm7.mp4
At the start of the round, in response to a probing double jab, I parry down the 2nd and shoot my own mirror stance jab over the top and immediately start pivoting off away from the power hand


https://i.imgur.com/PvExEPx.mp4
I get pressured into the corner a bit and circle out to my left but get tied up and clubbed with two right hooks, the second landing squarely behind my ear. Not moving to the right in a clinch becomes a theme to my defensive holes in this round. My circling out gets me in orthodox stance, and I keep side stepping to stay a moving target.
Sensing a jab coming, I just duck over it and push away and deliver a switch kick to the lead leg, finishing my exit.


https://i.imgur.com/NuZvRgZ.mp4
still expecting a double jab, I escalate my counter, parrying down but this time throwing a 1-2 back over and then pivoting left, which is much easier after throwing the rear right hand.


https://i.imgur.com/6SqO1Qs.mp4
I try to stop an advance with a fake rear right hand and lead uppercut. I have never developed the commitment I need to really land uppercuts, and this one comes up pretty short.
Seeing he's still advancing, I jam and distract with a jab, throw an inside kick under it, and then immediately shell up for that cross counter while backing away. So far, solid defensive responsibility.


https://i.imgur.com/g85Cb7e.mp4
he throws a mid kick that I catch and immediately drop to throw my own kick, and then he catches that! His push is hampered by not having his kicking leg back down right away, so he converts to a body knee while I tie up close to force a reset.
In Muay Thai, we could have kept going in the clinch, but in sanshou, stalling quickly to break is the norm.


https://i.imgur.com/HkCmgMY.mp4
as he pushes me into the corner, I go to outside reap his front leg, but he senses it just in time to retract it, and my leg misses. Upstairs, he offers to let up, though I continue to disengage with more safety, shelling up into a cross arm guard as he pushes away. I'm not confident on where to place my left arm -- higher to catch a hook on the upper arm? Further out to block a straight punch? The right arm is in a decent position to stop a punch on the left.
As I return to a normal guard, you can see how much I stick my neck forward. One of the less pretty aspects of my stance, and more vulnerable to punches both in reach and muscular restistance.


https://i.imgur.com/oJQlcCO.mp4
we're both hanging out with dead air between us, with him slipping and looking to advance, so I take the initiative with a jab just so he doesn't get too many ideas. He advances and pauses, so I commit on his next step to drop down and throw a long body shot, coming back up with that defensive jab (which correctly anticipates his countering cross) and inside kick (upsetting his base and slowing his advance while I exit out of reach of his jab.


https://i.imgur.com/Kx61ZKZ.mp4
got caught in the corner and started circling dramatically to my right to escape. He gets me with a lead hook before I put up my cross arm guard, which is still really open on my left side.
I've never been very adept in the clinch, and not comfortable with putting my arms out to foul incoming punches. My style is exemplified in this round -- stay on the outside, or get in and then get back out.


https://i.imgur.com/44UIzs1.mp4
We're both slowing down a bit, so you see more single shots exchanged. I see a naked kick coming and sacrifice my leg to take my head away from potential high kick or rear hand. Jab and side step. Get jabbed and throw a sloppy responding cross. Try to throw a 1-2 and get nicely jabbed inside my cross and step away, getting herded back into the corner with jabs.
As one last act of defiance, I try to throw my rear uppercut and predictably for me, come up short. He throws his third jab but follows with a body kick that lands flush while my arm is out on the uppercut.


https://i.imgur.com/x9ZACbm.mp4
I'm stepping out of the corner, see him threatening and try to punch to the body while still slipping out to the left. This doesn't work, as he tracks me nicely with that jab. At least I get out of reach of that chopping right hand. I go back to the ol reliable jamming jab and inside kick, disrupting his base as he comes in with a hook, but I also kick too far and overrotate as he clinches up. He goes for a clubbing overhand while I'm trying to square back up, and I lean my head away. By now I've got his left tricep in my right glove (and my left forearm spaced across his chest), so I've got enough handle on him to try a trip. Outside right leg reap followed by pushoff. I don't care if he falls; I'm retreating back off of my push.


https://i.imgur.com/7Ke1jus.mp4
new idea. Eat the kick and answer with a deep rear punch and the pivot away from his power hand.
Worked out ok -- I end up outside his left shoulder and step back as he he tries to bring his rear hook around. His lead hook is too late as I set up outside of the pocket.


https://i.imgur.com/49giUrZ.mp4
I'm slowing down and can't parry his jab in time, though I do graze him with my cross back over the top. After I back up, I throw the laziest feint lead kick and then stay there cuz I'm too tired.


https://i.imgur.com/oEJFA8B.mp4
I know the flurry is coming but don't have the will to move off, so just tuck my head down and shell up. His combo is jab, jab cross left hook right hook left hook right cross. The cross catches me, and I get lucky on everything else, partially blocking on my forearms and gloves. You can see the last punch knock my hand away.
My whole gameplan has been to use my reach and speed advantage against his short hooking punches, and when I'm too tired to set distance, I'm gonna pay.


https://i.imgur.com/FtTNfuy.mp4
I give up on trying to parry and just try to throw a harder punch right away against his jab, land that, but am slow in pivoting out. Halt a lead uppercut when he lands his inside kick. And then when he throws the next jab, I parry solidly and go for the lead upper again, which he ducks and wraps up both my arms in front of me, and then lands a right hook to my temple. I go to cross arm guard as I disengage and manage to block the left hook.


https://i.imgur.com/kX8Uaxy.mp4
trying to muster up enough energy to get momentum going my way again. I decide to start switching stances a lot to confuse.
As he throws the body jab, I land a mirror stance outside lead kick. I eat a kick as I gather up the mental energy to throw a punch combo and switch stances at the same time. As he kicks again, I throw cross jab cross, stepping forward twice with my rear foot so that it becomes my lead foot, then exiting to my left in southpaw.
As soon as he reengages, I feint a long uppercut to the body and once again twirl around his left shoulder, having turned him in front of me so much that I'm back to orthodox and ready to punch. He's completely occupied with recovering position so I get one free cross.
I follow pretty aggressively, and as he jabs, I throw a springing lead body kick that lets me settle back deeper, out of range and back into southpaw.


https://i.imgur.com/ssm6TXL.mp4
still trying to get momentum back on my side, i leap in with a non committal knee and score with a lead hook, cross combo. Now that he's got the knee on his mind, I do a sloppy Brazilian kick -- feint low kick (just barely in this execution) and then high kick. Lands (S-tier satisfaction in sparring), so I go back in to try to run up the score. Jab cross uppercut. Only the jab lands. I exit responsibly before his answering right hand.
The way my left foot just stays in place as I throw my rear left hand is one of the poorest aspects of my form. It means I'm rushing the punch, not sitting down on my hip or rear leg at all. You don't see this when I'm throwing rear punches from orthodox cuz I'm a natural righty.


https://i.imgur.com/wM1xOXe.mp4
as he comes in, I slap down the jab and cross just to distract him, before stepping off to the right. His right punch goes around my back and then his lead hook is blocked by my forearm. He's still coming, so I throw the only sidekick of the round, reaching him while neutralizing his jab.


https://i.imgur.com/86wKwAw.mp4
an even worse example of my left rear hand problem. As I punch, my rear foot slides to the right. The only power I put into my punch is from my body and shoulder shifting forward.
Ok, he's still coming, so I put out my right hand to try to deflect his arm to the side to clear that space for my head. As I slip to the right, I throw the rear hand to the body and recover it loosely to cross arm guard waiting for his answer. My left arm manages to stuff his rear hook. He lands his jab as I wait in the corner, and then I try his style of chopping rear hand and actually manage to land it even has he leans away.


https://i.imgur.com/4vTiPc9.mp4
as I tire, my rear hand gets low. So when we trade jabs, I get caught, bringing up my hand (and shifting back stance switch) way too late. Distance setting body shot. Cover his jab and inside kick. Jab into the dead air while getting my rear hand up for protection. Throw my 1-2 as he jabs and lands, get bothered enough to retreat.
From the corner, I try to jam into a clinch, but don't circle enough to the right and eat the right hook hard, with absolutely no cover from my left arm. My right arm is in place by the time he attempts his left hook.


https://i.imgur.com/upamm0H.mp4
too tired to do anything about leg kicks anymore, I just wait to have the most opening on a kick to punch back, doing a stance switching 4 punch combo where nothing lands cleanly, not even the rear hook I tried to set up.



So, this is all misleadingly overaly analytical. In these striking exchanges, you decide what you do before you start punching, and 80% of how it plays out is based on that decision and your speed of execution, with very little adjustment mid-exchange.
When you see it at full speed, it becomes clear that you can't make super refined tactical decisions in the moments of firefighting. You just pick a move that you've done thousands of times and execute it again. Hence some of my subpar clinch defense work -- I'm just doing what my body is used to no matter what. By the same token, even when things clearly work in slow motion, you might not even spot them at speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BYEbfC3tyQ&t=1626s

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Training any striking art that allows clinch work will help you stay on your feet on your own terms for longer than if you didn't train it. Footwork that works when you have to protect your head from strikes works just as well when you don't have that concern.

My students say they have really high transfer from boxing gloves-on, no gi clinches and throws in sanshou to open hands and gis in their BJJ classes. It mostly speaks to not emphasizing that domain in the average BJJ class, but at lower belt levels, yeah, the differential is dramatic.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Those reflect different philosophies in the expected amount of control/preparedness you have going into being thrown. Secondarily, reflect differences in ruleset and training.

The fetal position offers you maximal head protection in the case of being caught off guard by a big throw. Of course as you practice, you can figure out the timing of throws more and unfold halfway through and at least slap to diffuse the throw momentum a bit.

Modern shuaijiao is strictly a sport, one where you get scored on and reset to standing as soon as you get thrown, no matter how gracefully you exit the throw. Energy put into controlling how you fall or roll out of a throw that's already going to score is potentially wasted from getting up and going right back into trying to win the round.
This only works if the throws don't hurt. Anyone who grapples can of course tell you that hitting a wrestling mat at speed can still hurt enough to affect your performance if not outright injure you. But I'm talking about the difference between having a mat vs the extra consequences of getting thrown on hard ground or floor. If that's your training environment, you obviously need to take much stronger precautions against meeting the ground at speed with less structural support.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

slidebite posted:

I've got one of these paired up with a ~100-120lb heavy bag



The rare times I’ve tried this shape of bag frame, the front weight pins and the slanted supports kinda bothered me. They weren’t in the way of most kicks but definitely occupied some mental space for lower kicks. That’s if you use a banana bag, which imo you should for general kicking. Not as big a deal for punches on a regular bag.

Sherbert Hoover posted:

Wear gloves with a heavy bag btw, you will gently caress your hands up.

The gloves will protect your knuckles and metacarpals. You need to wrap properly to prevent your wrist from rolling painfully on misaligned punches. Which will happen frequently early on.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Has anyone used an elbow brace to practice compliance / catch wrestling / qin na joint attacks that are sudden and not controlled like in more coventional (safer) grappling?

What I've always read about catch wrestling is that some of the techniques don't have much safety margin, and obviously benefit from be applied explosively. I always wondered how moves like that could be drilled safely to improve skill level. A lot of joint locks from Chinese martial arts seem to have a similar flavor, where best case scenario, you go with it and get thrown, and worst case, something pops.

Been wondering if a hinged and angle-limited brace would offer sufficient insurance at the extreme range of motion to let some stuff like this be worked out somewhat more safely.

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kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
I forgot where I was posting my Mongolian wrestling reporting to. Quoting here from the grappling thread:

kimbo305 posted:

Ok, effort post is here. Took a lot longer to edit these than I wanted. Part of it was switching over to Davinci Resolve, and part was not having a good workflow for clipping out the interesting bits and ordering them thematically.
Please call out or comment on or ask about anything.

Some top level comments. Again, it's only been 6 months, so my understanding and execution are still very shallow. My best skills right now are footwork when not attached and hand speed, both of which unsurprisingly come from doing sanshou and kickboxing. My biggest limitations are strategic bandwidth and basically all techniques.

When it comes to switching over or training another martial art, it's interesting to make a distinction between the ruleset and the body of techniques. One of the most comforting things in this early phase has been the significant overlap between sanshou and shuaijiao. They have the same definition for what constitutes a fall and very similar throw scoring systems.
In shuaijiao, a fall is whenever someone touches any non-foot part of their body to the floor. For a throw to score, the thrower needs to remain standing (not having fallen) or demonstrate control, at the ref's discretion. Generally this means having any kind of top or side control, with your weight over their body. Both people falling and one person poised to do a heelhook would not count as in control or on top.
Once a fall happens, whether there's a score, both people are reset to standing and the action continues.

This general framework is super familiar to me, and that's made transitioning over much easier. If I were to go back to BJJ, the ruleset would be so different that I'd have a decent amount of extra mental overhead on top of trying to execute a variety of new techniques and positions.
Offensively, my repertoire is very limited. My sanshou grappling style was centered on catching kicks, and of course there's rarely any legs coming at you without striking. The rest of my throw game was based on staying far outside and popping in and landing a trip. Once I was wearing a jacket and not punching, it was way harder to get in without getting tied up.
Defensively, my existing takedown defense translates the most readily. Staying on the feet, avoiding trips and sweeps, using whizzers -- I have some base for that already. Not wearing boxing gloves only adds to my defensive options up top. I just need to avoid muscle memory of punching to spoil a tie up. Another small bonus is that from all the kicking, getting hacked on the shins doesn't bother me all.


Ok, first video is some highlighting of how my grip game has developed. When I started, I could see what grips I wanted, but I had no sense of timing or space to get my fingers right inside the sleeve or on the lapel. There was a lot of over and undershooting and jamming my fingers. On the shuaijiao side, I now have a decent sense of distance and timing to shoot out and get a single grip. Still struggling with keeping up a steady counter pace as my attacks get blocked. The jacket has a lot of options, particularly the lapel and sleeve, which are similar distances and let you retarget pretty efficiently. On the bokh side, in the early months, I couldn't believe how stiff the sleeve was, and how much my fingers hurt after a session. Even now, the lack of the lapel in bokh means less frantic pacing on attacking and counterattacking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Beli1rUMxNc
The grip break attempts you see first -- it's funny -- before this session, I watched a random Shintaro Higashi video that included a side shot of that yanking your own lapel to pop the fabric out of your opponent's hand, and I decided to try it. Before that, I knew that I needed to get out of grips but didn't have well structured techniques. This session was the first time I was adding both attempts and successes into the overall game.

The thing I marvel at the most is, when grip fighting, how much the whirling of forearms looks like stereotypes of Chinese kungfu. A lot of principles of trapping from Wing Chun, as well as similar range ideas in Praying Mantis and Hung Gar -- they would all apply better here than in a sport striking context. The speed advantage I have moving barehanded over having boxing gloves on is very noticeable (and appreciated cuz I'm lazy). Shuaijiao was not directly related to any indigenous martial arts, though, and would have had cross exposure in the early 1900s. So some of it has to be coincidence more than matching applications. And some is how Vincent and my particular standup styles mesh.


Next video is some defensive stuff along with some bad throw attempts and the counters. A lot of holding on while getting inside leg tripped and trying to free the leg, or pushing up and whirling out. With the top sleeve grip in bokh in particular, you have a very convenient handle to go ham to start whipping someone around. The defense is pretty intuitve, move with it and don't get too tense, hop over or step around any leg blocking attacks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY16EySEQmk


Now a particular tactic I was focusing on in that bokh session: making contact with the lead arm, pulling in a bit, and making a quick angle off to the side. I did this kind of stepping off the centerline all the time in kickboxing, and it made sense to me to adapt pawing the lead jab hand out of the way into this grip on the forearm. I told myself if I could get deep enough between stepping outside and close and also pulling them in a bit, that I could try to trip behind them and push over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5ZgYVH42PU
I had more success with this tactic than anything else, both in terms of specific offensive effect and taking more control of the standup positioning.
I also tried some arm drag like moves.


Finally, some flaws I saw watching the footage. The first has already been shown in a couple spots. If I feel like we're going into a grip on a single side of my body, I'll stretch out the distance, making an swing attempts slower, and also buying myself more time to react to linear attacks. But I subconsciously put my free side arm back and down to further counterweight and counterbalance. I guess I might be swinging the pendulum too far away from kickboxing, where you want the hand by your head most of the time. Now that that's not a concern, I'm being too free with that hand, instead of engaging it sooner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KHdPXItSM0
Then two different shameful lapses in footwork. I never walk like that in kickboxing, and I don't think I was particularly tired when I was just standing straight up and walking around like that.
The marching and getting my hips up and down -- I do remember being more tired, and was trying to keep a wider base than I'm used to while shuffling. Ugly.
Then it's a montage of all my unsuccessful lift attempts. I got a bit better about bringing my hips in on the initial lift, but just don't have enough overlap for my leg reap to do anything.
Last thing I only noticed while editing, not when it happened. I try to do an outside trip, but Vincent steps back and I plant my foot while my leg is still swinging sideways, and then I get pulled over, so my lower leg definitely gets at an awkward angle. It hurts to look at, but not sure how I can make it safer other than drilling a lot.


I'm having a lot of fun. I'm highly engaged in part because the ruleset being limited to standup makes it familiar territory for me. The lack of structure in training is fine because I don't have any specific goals for development. It would be a big blow if Vincent move away and I lost my main training partner for both these arts.
I look like such a fatass in some of the bokh shots where the jodag's beltline is becoming a pushup bra for my spare tire. Just being able to see myself in this shape (maybe 20lbs over my training camp weight) has gotten me motivated to do a little extra work all around.

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