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Whew! Just caught up myself, and things are indeed picking up. I couldn't comment on what I think is going on, since my main suspect (Kinzo) just apparently dies, and if everyone's telling the truth then everyone has an alibi... unless there was a pair/group working in cahoots, but I don't have enough information to say that.bman in 2288 posted:There's naïve children, and then there's Maria. I bet that it does. It's been brought up before, particularly after the garden scene, but Maria really does strike me as a kid somewhere on the autism spectrum- fixation, repeated phrases, tantrums, and a perceived lack of empathy. everyone finds it off-putting that she's not mourning her mother that just died, but they forget her fixation on magic and the epitaph: she doesn't believe he mother's really dead, so why should she mourn or get all het up like everyone else? It saddens me that nobody else is trying to engage with her; I don't blame them, considering the circumstances, but because they have such a visceral reaction to the name Beatrice, nobody's asking her the important things about her "encounter" in the garden: what did the person look like, how did they sound, what kind of clothes were they wearing, etc. These are the questions people should be asking, but like normal (I suspect), they just hit her and yell at her and tell her to be quiet, so she shuts down and just internalizes everything. It's uncomfortable to watch.
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Oct 9, 2016 21:32
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Well, that's why I said I didn't blame them, it's a hard time for everybody and I suspect it will get worse before it gets better. Lets face it, barring some chill moments by the kids yesterday, when they were just being silly, no one has been exactly at their Sunday Best since coming to this place. The moment the conference actually began, the veil was drawn back on how awful a lot of people's situations are and then the murders started, so I can see why not "accommodating the weird kid" might not be high on anyone's priority list at the moment. But it doesn't make it any less annoying that people keep hitting her for being offputting instead of asking her for information on who gave us the letter... or even noticing that she's completely dropped her "uu" sound. Poor girl- she gets punished for saying uu all the time, and the way she found to connect with the world (the occult) that allowed her to stop doing that got her punished too. It doesn't really surprise me that Ryukishi07 used to be a social worker given Maria's whole thing; developmental problems didn't really come up in Higurashi, but child abuse certainly did. Vvv: When, exactly? All I remember anyone asking on-screen is "who gave you the umbrella/letter?", according to the officiqal update. The only thime when she might have been asked something different was when the adults were grilling her after the letter reading, but we don't know what was asked there and it didn't turn out to be fruitful. Remember, Maria cares about stuff like this; if somebody asked her probing questions about Beatrice her hero's appearance or tried to engage her using the framing of magic, I can't imagine she wouldn't give an answer that wasn't as descriptive as she could. resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Oct 10, 2016 |
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Oct 10, 2016 01:49
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At last, they've drawn the connection between the epitaphs and the deaths. But as for that new letter appearing... unless somebody is hiding somewhere and tiptoed out while everyone was focused on the painting (difficult to pull off, but still possible, as I wouldn't put it past Kino to have hidden places that nobody but he knew about allegedly), the only other thing I've got is if somebody in there always had another letter and put it out while everyone was focused on the painting. Or, you know, magic, but Battler is discounting that for now, so I will too. But who could that have been? I guess the most suspicious one to me now are Genji and Dr. Nanjo, due to the closeness to Kinzo that they had and therefore seem the most willing to indulge all this "black magic" hoo-hah. I cant see how anyone else would have means or motivation...
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Oct 10, 2016 14:50
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Yeah, that you send them out of the room means they could do anything without you knowing, which is not really what you want to do, given that they could find and manipulate evidence without your knowledge. Besides, being histrionic about this discovery is a good way to hide that you did it, which is why I now kinda suspect Natsuhi, but until we know who was standing where exactly, it's a little premature to say exactly who put down the note. Again it comes down to just what Maria saw when she was handed the note, and who did it, and under what circumstances, but that questions never gonna be loving answered now is it? Not until people learn how to ask, and stop pointing guns at 9 year olds (so responsible!).
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Oct 11, 2016 15:02
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That's my main problem with "Natsuhi as culprit" as well, even though this last update does make me a little suspicious of her. While there have been stories when we've gotten glimpses of the killers mind during the mystery, they... haven't really tended to be very good, because you have to have real craft to pull that off. Otherwise, one comes off as a cheating try-hard hack; Ryukishi07 might not be the greatest, but he's better than that at least.
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Oct 12, 2016 00:43
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ProfessorProf posted:GAME OVER https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOdISTgK3cg That's... kinda bleak... and really not much of a mystery if the witch- or whoever- just wins in the end.
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Oct 12, 2016 15:35
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KataraniSword posted:It's rare that a piece of media dares you, openly dares you, to conquer it. But isn't that what a mystery novel is, after all: a dare by the villain to the protagonist- and therefore the reader- to solve an unsolvable riddle? I am reminded of Sherlock Holmes and all of his stories, and quite a few of them were debunking something which had no other explanation but to be "mystical", to involve something beyond human thought or ability. And while everyone else is running around fearing Doomsday, the Devil, and other creatures man was not meant to wot of, Sherlock was clapping his hands and going "Guys... Guys. People have been around a long time, and have been observing the world and its phenomena for a while. We might not know everything about it, but we do know some things, and a couple of them are: matter and energy runs on rules which can't be broken, everything that exists leaves a trace, and you can only find out what the truth is when you've discarded all the lies." Well, he said it a lot pithier than that, but the point remains that what people call "magic", actual magicians call knowing one extra fact more than the audience. And while the presence of a 19th person (or 20th! Or 21st!) can't be discounted yet, we haven't nearly considered all the possibilities for all of the mysteries Beatrice mentioned at the end there...
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Oct 13, 2016 17:35
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^^ Slow on the draw! Yeah, or another person was in there all along and then left by another way. Or did they leave; do we know the layout of that room? Is there a window to leave by, or a big wardrobe in which to hide until the coast is clear? See, these are all questions we should ask when confronted with an "impossibility": you narrow down the things you don't know using the things you do know and work from there, proposing various hypotheses and testing the out on the scene and evidence provided and discarding the wrong ones until you arrive at the truth. It's not unfeasible in this story that there is a "power" behind things, but you still have to use deductive reasoning and the scientific method to derive the how and why. What you don't do is just throw up your hands and say, "I'unno, witches or some poo poo, job done lets go to the bar." Well, you could, I guess, but Hercule Poirot you aint. 
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Oct 13, 2016 19:26
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Hm. I am suddenly taken with the desire to read Higurashi; I mean, it's sitting right there in Steam, nearly finished, and this might be a good time to show support. Thing is, I've seen the anime (both adjectiveless and Kai, even Chiru, which was a mistake) and know all of the major plot points, would it still be worth a read, according to those who've read it?
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Oct 14, 2016 14:43
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ProfessorProf posted:I've never gotten all the way through it, but general consensus is that the Higurashi VN is far better than the anime. Just be sure to use a version that doesn't have R07's original sprites. oath2order posted:The Higurashi anime is much better to its source material than Umineko's anime is, particularly Kai. The original official English translation for Higurashi was truly awful, but I believe they fixed it later. And is this a paycheck I see before me...? Oh, what the heck, I'll take the plunge; good work should be supported. Seriously, though, I have heard the anime adaptation for Higurashi, particularly Kai, is as good an adaptation that could be reasonably expected of that work... but I have also heard that, due to the very nature of that story, some context and necessary exposition was missed. So I look forward to looking over all the stuff I missed the first time around!
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Oct 14, 2016 23:20
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Huh. I missed the description of Kinzo saying he apparently disappears for long periods habitually, and no one seems to know where he goes... Not sure what that means yet, because I don't have any further information, but does that mean he actually disappears from his study, without anyone seeing how?
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Oct 15, 2016 13:45
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I don't know how it could be called Shannon's fault, per se, since we don't know the specifics of this promise she made... but it is interesting that she went to the shrine and did something like a spell to be free of servitude. But I don't suppose I blame her after a sweet date like that!  I wonder if we're going to see something like Higurashi here, where the same essential event will be experienced by different charactes, thus providing more information (that wasn't an invitation to tell me, I'm just spit-balling). I also like the new presentation very much; allows me to see more of the sprites.
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Oct 16, 2016 20:35
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ProfessorProf posted:
This doesn't seem to make sense as written. Is someone else supposed to speak that first line, like Krauss or Natsuhi? Re: this scene- Eva's suggestion that Jessica takes time with her appearance to appear ladylike to please her mother made me realize something: Jessica wears her hair like her mom. Given what we know from last episode when their tender moment together showed that they do love each other but misunderstand one another because of expectations, I think Eva might have something there- which stands to reason: though a venomous bitch, she cares about her son too. Indeed, it's because she cares about her son so much that she's so horrible to Shannon here- she wants to do right by her son at all costs, and part of that is finding a girl for him who's lands are broad and who's towers run high... and though Shannon be pretty, where her lands? And then she gets shat on again by not taking Natsuhi's abuse like good little furniture should. They really are pushing the Cinderella parallels this episode so far, aren't they? If she starts talking to animals too, I'm gonna spit.
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Oct 17, 2016 14:42
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"My, my... Doesn't it seem as though, in addition to study, Jessica should also learn how to speak a little more lady-like? That is shameful for a daughter who bears the Ushiromiya family crest."
"My, isn't that fascinating, right? Times change. The time when we had to dress modestly to entertain men ended a long time ago."
"That's right, that's right! I knew you'd understand, aunt Eva! Eheheheh!"
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MonsterEnvy posted:For other new people I am curious. Now that the first episode is over what would you say is your impression of the characters. Do you mean in terms of who could be the murderer, or just in general? Hmm... Kinzo: A right old cock, and one of the only ones with the knowledge and inclination to commit the massacre. Terrible relationship with all his true born children, but oddly good with the servants, either because he thinks they won't bite the hand that feeds them, or don't have any reason to harm him, or actually likes them... and then there was that odd scene where he was nice to Natsuhi out of the blue, but whether that was out or affection or to manipulate her somehow, I don't know. Actually, I don't know much about him, save that Nanjo's his friend and chess buddy, he's into the occult, and he screams about Beatrice a lot- that's all I know even after looking in his head. Could he have done these murders? Yeah- he's the only one who knows enough occult stuff to draw those sigils, he seems physical enough to drag bodies around, and we never saw him die... and have no real guarantee that the body in the boiler was his, beyond the extra toes. (That stuff is hereditary, sometimes; could he have broke into the shed and reused a body there?) Besides, he probably knows the house and grounds best besides the servants, having built the place mostly himself- even if there are no secret ways (which I doubt), he knows all the shortcuts. Krauss: Sarcastic, bitter shithead... And that's kinda all I got on him, as the game has been kinda cagey about where he's coming from or what he's doing. Apparently he has some skill as an investor, but his investments don't really bear fruit, and like Kinzo, I just don't know about him. What does he even want from all of this, from becoming heir- to be rich? To provide for Jessica? or just because he hates his dad and siblings so much that he just wants to take everything himself out of spite? He also apparently knows something about the gold, as he has that bar which he only showed Natsuhi, but does all this make him a murderer? He was one of the first ones to go, but more importantly, he just doesn't seem to care enough about people to want to kill them, so... I don't think so at this point. Natsuhi: Probably the adult Ushiromiya I have the most sympathy for. Yeah, she's a terror to the servants and probably not an easy person to like, but drat it she tries her hardest to be a good wife, mother, and family member, and gets mostly grief for it- Eva sneers at her, Jessica rebuffs her, and her husband barely notices she's even there half the time. (This is why the scene with Kinzo sticks out to me: it's probably the only acknowledgement she's ever recieved for her efforts... which makes me suspicious that it might be some kind of trick.) And she also seems to care about the kids well-being too- she's probably the best with Maria outside of George, and though there's friction between her and Jessica, her inner monologue makes it clear that she wants an easier life for her daughter within the family, so that she can have a shot at being head- it's capitulation to the toxic patriarchy of the family and probably not a good idea, but there it is. I also mostly admire that she was the one to take charge and assume the safety of the kiddos, even if it did come to naught later. She's another one I can't see being the murderer, as she has an alibi for most of the time she was there- and the only one I could see her genuinely wanting to kill is Eva, but that's pretty impossible as things stand now. Jessica: I like her, she's cool. I can see that she's torn between wanting to do her own thing regardless of her family, and wanting to meet her mom halfway at being more ladylike, and it's kind of sad that the only one that really sees that is Eva (who mostly supports it for the selfish reason that it clears the way for George to be hair, and seeing her daughter have a good rapport with that bitch must be one more headache for Natsuhi). Her sudden relationship with Kanon sort of came out of nowhere, especially given how much Kanon hates all these motherfuckers, but I'm hoping later episodes shed light on that. Probably not a killer. Nanjo: Umm...  Seriously, I got nothing; seems a kindly old country doc, and even though he and Kinzo were pals, I don't see how he'd just help out with any of this weird poo poo even if he was offered gold for it. Doesn't change the cat that he doesn't have an alibi for some of these murders, though...Eva: You know, it's a shame Eva's such a bitch, because she'd probably be my favorite adult otherwise- she fought against her place in the hierarchy and won, and she in general seems to have a good relationship with the kids, as well as with her husband. They feel like genuine partners, as has been noted, and they probably provided the best home-life of all the kids for George. Alas, the same ambition that allowed her to smash the patriarchy is what makes her so abrasive, being horrible to Natsuhi at no provocation, blackmailing and degrading relatives, and dealing with any threat to make George the eventual heir with nuclear force. We saw her, in this episode, deal with Shannon as harshly or more so as Natsuhi because she threatens Eva's imagined future for George, and I have no doubt that if Jessica or Battler had designs on the family chair, she would be just as harsh with them. Considering all that, yeah, she could be the killer, at least for some of the initial six- she could easily have killed some and damaged the head, leaving them for Kanon to find in the morning. But beyond that... I don't know, as she probably wouldn't have killed herself and her husband in her room. Hideyoshi: Again, mostly a normal guy; I think I'd like him, even if I'd found his massively fake down-home accent annoying after a while. He seems like a really good father figure to the kids, even if he is ambitious and business oriented; even his motive for getting money (that he lost his company standing through not understanding the stock market) makes it seem like he's driven by guilty towards failing his family and employees, rather than greed. However, he's shown that he's not averse to the occasional shady scheme to get ahead, so... if Eva asked him to help with a murder, particularly one that would secure the future of their son, he might say yes, so he could have done the original six. I don't see him assisting in a double suicide, though. George: He's a good boy who means well, and his scenes with Shannon are very sweet. And that's all I got at the moment; he's the most together and mature of the kids, but that means that he's also the least interesting to talk about. This secret tryst with Shannon is the most interesting thing about him so far. And no, he's not the murderer.Rudolph: Another tricky one. A sarcastic rear end in a top hat, to be sure, but he doesn't seem to be too attached to anything about the family or the conference, and seems to largely come to give his older siblings grief. About the only thing we know about him for sure is that he's a proud skeptic, and that this is one of the few things Battler admires about him. We don't know what he did to cause the rift between him and his son (although I can guess. Speculation: he cheated on Battler's mother, didn't he? Possibly when she was sick or dying?), and his relationship to Kyrie seems similarly weird- like, kinda close, but lacking in communication;. And then there's the fact that he thought he was going to die-why, when he's so far out in the pecking order? I don't really see how he could be the murderer for the same reasons; he needed money, but none of the bodies pointed the way to the gold, so I don't see him as murderer. Kyrie Weird one also; we never seemed to get a real handle on her either, since all of last story was from Battler's perspective and they're still walking on eggshells around each other. We were told that she and Rudolph were partners in crime a la Eva and Hideyoshi, but we never got a sense of that, at least in public- perhaps because Rudolph didn't want the upper family making the same snide remarks about how "whipped" he is that they make about Hideyoshi, probably- but Kyrie did seem to know her husband in a way nobody else seemed to. And that's pretty much all I got, as she has neither means nor impetus to commit the murders... Although I do kinda wish she had shut up about the "flipping the chessboard" thing, as it hasn't really helped. Battler: Our boy; what a good boy! No I like him very much, he seems cool, and I admire that he's here to bring things down to reality... even if he really isn't bright enough to do it.  At least not yet; hopefully, clashing with the witch will get him to throw that drat chessboard away. I frankly don't really know why he's bothering with this nest of vipers, even if he has nowhere else to go... somebody must have persuaded him to come back, but I suppose we'll get into that later.Rosa: Poor unhappy Rosa. Lowest on the hierarchy, nobody to help her, father of her child split and the child is challenged as well, and it all has worn down upon her. She tries, and you can tell she tries, but in just a few scenes you can get the whole unhappy cycle: she and Maria try their best, but maria gets fixated and has a fit, then the abuse, than the regret, then the appeasement, rinse, repeat. It's understandable, but it doesn't make it any harder to watch. She probably isn't the killer. Maria: She's interesting. She might just be weird, but she has a lot of indicators of somebody on the spectrum... not that she needs those to be creepy; kids are kinda creepy as a rule, especially before they've worked out the "death" thing. It's a real shame everybody's too weirded out by her interests to use them to reach her, but the only one who doesn't recoil at the thought of magic is Kinzo, and he likely doesn't see little girls as people. As creepy as she gets this episode, I don't think she's the killer or even an accomplice: she's too certain of the riddle's outcome to even consider it might fail so she just watches and waits, enjoying the spectacle of "true magic". Besides, I don't think she'd hurt any of her family members, not even her mother; after all her wish was for happiness for them both. Hoping she'll get hit less in this episode. Genji: Another enormous question mark. He just seems to have that mask of cool professionalism on all the drat time, not only when serving, but also when dealing with other servants- he's the Butler's Butler, and that makes me immediately suspicious. If anyone would have helped Kinzo do his thing, it's him: he has knowledge of the house, access to all the keys, and most importantly, all the servants would lie about his movements if he asked them to. So I got my eye on him. Kanon: Probably the most interesting servant to me before the latest episode, as there is a lot of friction between him and the masters; you can tell he dearly wants to tell all these selfish fuckheads to stick it up their rear end, but the whole "servants are furniture" thing was drilled into his head to well for him to do that. And yet there's the kindness that Kinzou, of all people, shows him, which Kanon reciprocates; after all, he's nice to those who are nice to him. And then there's his apparent thing with Jessica, which I hope we get more on because it seemed to come out of left field; I would have thought he had something going on with Shannon, but I guess that's a familial something. He wasn't involved in Shannon's murder, but could he have been involved in the others? He certainly seemed to be a believer in the legend, so yeah, he could have. Kuwabara: Miss Mackerel She's another great character, both in attitude and action, in shielding the servants from Natsuhi's displeasure and being chummy with the kids. I don't want to believe she's the murderer, but she's a believer, and the fact remains, she lacks an alibi for most things, so vector_to,s theory is still pretty legit...Gohda: A lazy brown-nosing piss-ant who got what he deserved. Too bad, so sad, bye bye. Shannon: The girl of the hour. She seemed pretty interesting before, in being the closest thing the kids have to a friend among the servants, but she became interesting once her thing with George was revealed, and she's real interesting now that she's entered an unspecified bargain with Beatrice and cast a strange spell... or just broke a mirror, whichever. In some ways has more of a spine than even Kanon, since she does try to defend her work, even though this gets her in trouble... hopefully this episode gives us more. And hopefully doesn't turn her into a disney princess. The Witches: Nope. Not even gonna try yet. Did I forget anybody?
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Oct 18, 2016 01:53
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oath2order posted:You know the thing that really sticks out to me on the re-read is just how much shannon's story feels like a typical Disney princess movie. The cinderella parallels are hardcore. Well, I dunno... She seems pretty on point for how fairies used to be portrayed in song and story before the World Wars: as dangerous, eldritch beings who played around with humanity because they could, rather than a helpful spirit born of a dead mother's love. But goddamn, Beatrice is laying it on thick there; might as well have burst into song as she teleported away...
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Oct 18, 2016 14:55
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Well...poo poo.  That update just... completely upended my understanding of what is going on here.I mean, that is not what I expected at all when I look at how Beatrice has been portrayed through the rest of this story. She's been treated as this malevolent, sinister presence throughout, and absolutely lived up to that image when she first appeared, so to see her be so... chummy, nice and down right cute with Shannon this episode, to see her be so kind to someone (as, in fairness she always said she would be to those who help her)- it's like seeing friggin' Cthulu wish you a good day and give you a nice lunch. From Shannon's perspective, I'm glad: it's this kindness from an unexpected source that gives her strength to go after what she wants and do some patriarchy-smashing herself... I suspected her of having a stronger backbone than Kanon, and I was vindicated when Kanon just goes back to the learned helplessness well and harps on that "furniture" poo poo because he's been broken by it and Shannon hasn't. She even gives up her love-charm in order to show him a part of the joy she now shares... and there's where the title comes in, reinforced by Shannon's new vigor and the dark and sad undercurrent with the scene with Kinzo. Without love, it cannot be seen... and what has driven Kinzo to madness is not love, but obsession. Now, this still could all be an act- Kanon certainly seems to think so, and since we learned that Beatrice is more or less trapped here, that does give her a motive for causing the massacre- but I just can't see why she would go to all the trouble of supporting Shannon's suit and attempt to liberate her from the awful slave logic that holds the servants in thrall just to ice her later when the massacre begins. Don't get me wrong- setting up a romantic girl for a marriage and then killing her before that marriage is even consummated is just the sort of monkey's-paw awfulness I would expect from a wish granted by a twisted being, but I don't see what Beatrice would gain from her death when what she does alive amuses her so well. It leads me to a feeling and that feeling is this: it wasn't Beatrice that killed Shannon that night. She saw something she shouldn't have, and that is why she died; the whole thing about Beatrice being prevented by the charm is hoo-hah to distract us from that.
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Oct 19, 2016 14:21
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oath2order posted:Just to understand your arguement, do you think Beatrice killed no one in the last episode, or is it that she killed bunch but there was also another culprit? Well, I'm not entirely sold that Beatrice has done anything, really- she took credit for "teaching Shannon love" and bringing her and George together, but there were clearly feelings between them before, and George (like all the kids) really doesn't seem as enthused about enforcing the line between servants and masters, so that might have happened with or without her influence. Same with the deaths: it could well be that she didn't kill anyone... but there are some really suspicious deaths (like Eva/Hideyoshi, Kanon, Natsuhi) that we haven't figured out yet, so if, I say if, there is in fact some weird, trapped spirit that only a few people can see who ran around giving Battler wet willies whist Maria giggles, I don't suppose we can rule her out as a suspect. But Shannon? I don't think that was here. The circumstances of he death, however, taking with everyone else we know... what if it was Eva? If she knew about her dates with George, that would be suitable motive to protect her son... and if she was found by Shannon outside Natsuhi trying to break in, well...
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Oct 19, 2016 16:37
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Fabulousvillain posted:Seems more like a contractor trying to get you to sign a deal before you have time to read the fine print or hire a lawyer: "Hey what's this part about no one on the island escaping alive, I mean I thought I just had to break a mirror and you'll be revived. Are you making this up as you go? Let me call my exorcist." But the thing that gives me pause about that is, by the dialogue, Shannon and Beatrice are having the tea party, Shannon has already broken the mirror. Ergo, Beatrice already has what she wants out of her; that's why she can do things like have tea parties now. Therefore, either Beatrice is genuinely being nice here... or there's something else she wants. Or this is a complete whim and she's making this up as she goes, which could very much be the case. KataraniSword posted:She might even be "kind" enough to murder them together like what happened before with Eva and Hideyoshi. It's so very romantic, and all. But she doesn't do that, remember? She murders her in the hallway and never lifts a hand to George, which is why this whole thing is weird to me.
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Oct 20, 2016 11:28
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bman in 2288 posted:Unless Kanon covers for her like crazy (which he might not), Jessica's gonna get in a lot of trouble at home. Again. Mmm-hmm. I'd like to think he'd cover for her but that "I am furniture" crap run deep... if somebody cornered him, he'd spill the beans. By the way, I hope there's more evidence than this that Kanon and Jessica were "in luuurve" with each other, because one date that one party was pressured into to save the others embarrassment does not a relationship make. I'm sorry all these kids are lonely and it's great that they're seeking comfort in each other, but these power dynamics just make everything unhealthy as balls. They all need a wider group to choose partners from, as far away from these adults as possible.
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Oct 20, 2016 19:30
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Christ Jesus!  Ok, forget whatever the gently caress I was saying about Beatrice being benign in any capacity, because anyone who makes a face like that is not your friend.Two updates on, and my understanding of where all of this is going is upended again. It seems the undercurrents of horror these relationships have are deliberately apparent, since apparently Beatrice needs them as impetus to fulfill her legend... or are just for funsies! So that bit about making nice with Shannon and encouraging her relationships was never meant to make Shannon stronger, it was to foment a toxic relationship meant to fall apart for her amusement? loving bitch; I'm glad Kanon told her to gently caress off and crushed her silly pendant which may or may not even work! (We still have that ambiguity as to whether Beatrice is doing anything except make faces here, as the relationships built up could be a result of natural consequences, rather than any magic) And Kanon... dang, it might be sad, but it's probably for the best that he recognized the weird dynamic that would always exist if he took Jessica up on her offer, and turned her down; it may have hurt her, but he proved himself not furniture at all, even if he doesn't believe that. And I guess Battler was jumping the gun on JessXKanon pairing, too: what he saw as proof that Jessica "loved" Kanon is just sorrow that Kanon died while still denying his own individuality (which isn't really true either), and while Kanon was getting to see other sides of Jessica and possibly warming to her, he most definitely was not about to jump into her arms because she said so. In short: love stinks, and the stage is set for a bloody massacre come October, due to all this pain and sorrow. At least Shannon and George are still-  "Maybe that's true. And furniture has to listen to what people say."GEORGE!! What the gently caress!? At least Jessica to her credit tried to reject the furniture stuff!
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Oct 21, 2016 15:51
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Aw, geez.  I was feeling really good today, too- thank goodness for this LP to remind us of lovely things like child abuse in public.Seriously, Rosa and Maria's relationship just ticks all the loving boxes, doesn't it: young, unsure mother, father's gone away, so she errs a little on the side of being indulgent in the early years and only realizes the effects too late when the kid starts freaking out in public, suppresses all her stress until a breaking point (in this case the woman handing the sweet out, and yeah, she shouldn't have, and yeah it's a bad idea to take candy from strangers), and then snap. Hits, screaming, "why can't you be normal?", and then remorse as soon as it cools down, appeasement, and then the whole thing starts again later. The one bright spot (if you can even call it that) is that Maria seems to get that this isn't normal behavior for her mom- even though she rationalizes it in a unique way, "possessed by a bad witch"- and doesn't think her mom actually hates her, or wishes she'd never been born. ProfessorProf posted:
And what's this, now? There's actually a conspiracy to prevent Kinzo from meeting the other kids- one that Genji and Nanjo are in on, or say they are? Why that mysterious biot, and what are they doing? Could Genji be slipping something into the absinthe without Kinzo knowing; could Nanjo be faking the old man's prognosis? Do tell! And this "special guest", that doesn't sound like a family member... were they expecting Beatrice through Kinzo's ritual, or could this be the fabled 19th person on Battlers magical flipping chessboard? So many questions... And one of them is: is there a sort of Higurashi loop going on here, because this scene is different from the first time- it matches the same wide beats, so it could be that Battler is just remembering or perceiving things differently, but there was no pumpkin candy, or talk of Halloween before... nor talk of Beatrice. So the next episode will probably tell us if this is the same event thriough different eyes, or... or whatever.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:39
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"...I'll finish all the preparations, so you can devote yourself to the family conference. I'll handle all of them."
"...Sorry. Will there be any problems... with Father?"
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Daisuke Ono and Sayaka Ohara Scream At Each Other Forever, indeed. So this is a different version of events- a version that might not even be real, but a simulation of events created through illusion to show Battler what happened where. Meaning that these new scenes were shown to Battler to add context and motivation for the characters as to what happened that night? Well, OK, but I don't see why Battler is supposed to believe everything that's said here; she could be lying about events to obscure the truth... in which case, I suppose victory would depend on exposing that lie. drat, I hope Battler knows what he's doing and has something other than determination and denial to fight something like Beatrice...ProfessorProf posted:
Unless Hideyoshi is a secret teleporter, I don't think that photo's right.
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Oct 23, 2016 13:29
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"Hoh-hoh-ho... Without a doubt."
"...You know. When the day of the family conference comes, for some reason, I feel uneasy about this witch."
"Hoh... Why do you say that again...?"
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tiistai posted:Rosa really is awful. Avoiding hitting Maria's face is pretty drat telling of how much she's "losing" to any kind of a witch during her temper tantrums, not to mention she keeps continuously using that as an excuse and a cheap way to ask forgiveness. One of the things that I have noticed about this story- about all of Ryukishi07's stories, really- is his understanding of the nature of abuse- how it comes about, how it affects others, and the dangers of associating it with parental right of child-rearing. It's to a degree I'm actually surprised they made it into a fairly mainstream game- both scenes in which Rosa is abusing Maria are treated not as a regrettable duty of child-rearing, but uncomfortable and horrifying to witness: cruel, damaging acts that affect both the abuser and the one abused, which become even more so when one realizes that this is so common that they've both gotten to the point of making the abuse normal, Maria by disassociating the traumatic event through rationalization according to her worldview ("It wasn't really Mama, it was a bad witch"), and Rosa going along with that disassociation to absolve herself of guilt and shame. The author makes it clear that this is not a one-time event, but a terrible cycle borne of a violent act that occurred under certain circumstances which continued because those circumstances were not identified and dealt with. It is very easy to see Rosa as a monster after these scenes-Kanon certainly does- and to imagine that taking her out of the picture (as somebody does) would fix the problem, but Ryukishi07 doesn't indulge that view point. The same circumstances that led to Maria's abuse at Rosa's hands have been hinted at or outright stated to have occurred on this very island, and Rosa does display a lot of the characteristics of an abused person herself*: anxiety, diffidence around her elder siblings, mood swings and a swiftness to anger, lack of controlling stress or even talk about it much... about the only box she doesn't tick is substance abuse, and we just might not have seen that. The abuse she displays to her child was handed down to her by her own parent- by Kinzo, who sounds like he got her on all fronts, physically with his bamboo sword and emotionally with his thoughts on women and lack of love for anyone. And you can see the results all around us: all of the siblings put down the others; Eva abuses Natsuhi, who in turn takes it out on the servants; even George's uneven romance with Shannon has elements of it, even if he does not hurt her- about the only relationships that are portrayed as healthy and normal are the kids relationship to each other. The true villain, the true monster, here, is this environment which enables and encourages such acts, and the only cure for them is to take them out of this environment and identify and treat their scars, through therapy, counseling, and talking out their problems. This is what I sincerely hope the conversation with Kyrie was about as well, about getting to see that her daughter loves her and is trying her best (as well as a subtle guilting about her behavior) rather than an approval of her child rearing tactics, which it might read as on first glance. (Would really help if I knew more about where she was coming from, drat, Kyrie, give me something!  ) And on another note entirely... it seems Beatrice can appear in front of the family members; is it an emotional state that calls her, a strong want, or simply belief?*And as long as we're talking about that: repeated child abuse also leads to improper brain and language development as well. Sound familiar? Uuu~  e, because yes, the Uroshimiyas are buggered up enough without dragging THAT into it...
resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Oct 24, 2016 |
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Oct 24, 2016 16:50
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ProfessorProf posted:That would certainly be quite the plot twist. Truth be told, I was thinking mostly of this line: "Maybe that's true. And furniture has to listen to what people say. Now, I will have a ring made that's appropriate to give to you. I think I'll probably bring it to the family conference coming up soon. I'll give it to you then, so please, I want you to let me hear your answer."Here she is, regurgitating that "I am furniture" nosense, and he, rather than assuring her that she is not only a person but the one he wants to spend his life with, plays along and changes the subject. Is that really something you would say to somebody you admired and wanted to help, as George claims to? I mean he himsef seems like a nice fellow and his scenes with Shannon are cute, but that doesn't mean they're both still affected by their environment. This relationship used to be the one bright spot in all of this shithole island for me... but now the only bright spot is that Kanon eschewed a similar relationship, because there are no good relationships here. (All that post about abuse, and I didn't even notice that the whole candy incident occured because of an offhand remark by Eva she most likely didn't even think about. Man hands on misery to man, it deepens like a coastal shelf.) bman in 2288 posted:I highly doubt that the Ushiromiyas would go get any form of counselling, even if they did realize that the environment they live in is toxic as hell. You speak as if that stigma weren't present even here, in the good old US of A, where therapy is only acceptable if one is of a certain race and earning bracket. But yes, I know about Japan's attitude towards psychological aid, and I absolutely believe Ryukishi07 knows too, given the very palpable sense of condemnation I get with both the scenes here (particularly the scene in the train station), as well as how abuse is handled in Higurashi. He is very much condemning, in the strongest terms possible, the lack of inderstanding and empathy that exists in his society regarding this particular issue- it's part of the reason I'm so surprised he got away with it. (Although I note that the animated adaptations of his work don't nearly have the same bite his writing does here; it was touched on in the Higurashi animes but not to the degree it kinda should have, and did this element come up at all in the Umineko anime?) If there is one common theme that the When They Cry series have, it's this: humans, particularly children, are communicative creatures; they echo and pass on what they are given. If what they are given is love and kindness, that will resonate, but if what they are given is pain...
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Oct 24, 2016 18:19
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oath2order posted:Man, this thread is really blase about the fact that Beato put on a suit and is just strolling around the island. What does it take to impress you people? Define "impressed." If it means interested to know how Beatrice does it, I certainly am impressed and would like to know more. But if it means I'm ready to fall at her feat, declare her as a goddess non-pareil and start making wishes and praises to her... sorry, but no.  Let me unpack that a little, because I think there's been a little confusion as to what Battler means when he says that he "denies" Beatrice; some people seem to think that means he somehow doesn't believe he's actually talking to the person talking to him, and I don't really think that's the case. He doesn't have to "believe" in that, because he knows right well somebody's talking to him, for one thing... but for another, I don't thing Battler is disputing the fact that there are systems of energy or ways to do things that he doesn't know or understand. He is a skeptic, but that doesn't make him a denier of all he can't see or know about. After all, do we know or understand everything about the real world? gently caress no; there's tons of poo poo we don't get yet, like quantum physics, or the bottom of the abyss, or even our own psychology... and lots of other things that we're pretty sure we know about and can measure, but can't explain why they are what they are, such as gravity. New advances in science and knowledge are made every day, but the stuff we don't know or can't explain doesn't decrease much, in fact it seems to increase on some fronts, but here's the thing: that doesn't mean the knowledge we've already acquired doesn't mean anything, and it doesn't mean what is unknown will remain unknown. In the past, when we huddled to our clans and villages and around our campfires, the world was a dark and scary place with dragons for all we knew around the next hill, and those who did travel told fantastic tales of distant lands with fantastical creatures and men and women who could wield fire and cure the sick and call thunder and lightning from the sky. Such people with mysterious powers, they thought, could not be of this world, so they labeled them sorcerers and witches... but they didn't come from another world, their understanding of this one was much greater. They knew about medicine and gunpowder and had a greater understanding of their environment, and through building off of what they discovered, we can now do things that even those learned men would not believe. And Beatrice, whoever or whatever she really is, is the same as these. Oh, I'm sure she'd like to pretend she can just snap her fingers and make things happen because she wills it- the way she speaks, it seems like a lot of her ability to affect the world depends on belief in her as such a goddess- but we, if not Battler and the other characters, know differently from the scene we saw with Lady Bernkastel. In talking to each other, they alluded to the fact that they weren't human and did have abilities beyond human, but they also said that they were creatures defined by law- the law of their own affinity and the law of interacting with the universe. (As if they were anthropomorphic personifications of concept like certain death and uncertain salvation or eternity itself that... press against the world and each other, and the resultant conflict is defined in this game as magic.) And Beatrice admitted this episode that she could be just as trapped on this island as Kinzo is in her room- that this is a gamble for her as well. So long story short: is she something inhuman? Probably. Can she do weird things we don't get? We've seen that she can. But does that mean that she cannot be explained, quantified, and in the end beaten? No.... or what the heck are any of us even doing here? tl;dr: When Battler says magic and witches don't exist, he isn't denying the person he's talking to exists, he's denying the person he's talking to can do what she did by breaking the natural laws of the cosmos through her wish.
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Oct 25, 2016 19:01
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In the same vein as what the thread has been discussing with regards to Maria, you might try With the Light: Raising an Autistic Child, by Keiko Tobe, which is highly regarded as an accurate depiction of both the condition and the challenges of raising such a kid. It's pretty long, but I know some of it's been translated, at least up to volume 8. Another one might be A Silent Voice, which deals with the experience of being deaf, and also bullying.
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Oct 26, 2016 04:26
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Nooo, Kanon! You were doing so well! When someone tells you to kiss their shoes, you spit in their face! Or something... But Battler was reading my mind with her interpretation of maria's candy getting "restored": it was a store-bought generic candy that Maria had more than one of, so yeah, a bit of slight of hand is possible. The butterfly thing? Eh, that's trickier, but it's not like that can't be done either, without some fancy projections in the environment. (In magic, a lot of attention is brought to the person of the magician , "nothing up my sleeves" and such, and their immediate prop, but not enough paid to the whole environment of the performance, such as the stage, audience plants, etc. If Beatrice really wants to impress me, she should show me something I couldn't see the like of at a Kriss Angel show.) She keeps insisting that her intervention is necessary to bring about the epitaph, but as has been brought up, people this broken and desperate don't really need some prophecy to start killing each other...
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Oct 26, 2016 22:14
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Huh. So apparently, Beatrice has been meeting with Maria on this island for a while, if what Maria says is true this episode, and that's why she has such a solid occult knowledge, apparently. It was all shared to her by her "friend" Beatrice, and the poor girl was probably starving for a parental figure that doesn't yell at her to be quiet or flip out and beat her that she lapped it all up like a starving puppy. The thing is, whenever Maria shifts into "witch" mode, she does sound her age- even older- and speaks at that level, is interested in the world an communicating with others, even if she does sound creepy doing it, so we can't really say that these secret meetings haven't helped her... but we also can't say they're good, can we, since she'd do anything that her teacher tells her to do. This was the figure that came to Maria when she was alone and hurting, and brought her comfort, got her interested in the world, made her feel normal...why would you go against such a person? But where did she come from, if she didn't come on the boat? Well the island is big and only a little part of it is used, and everyone is told to avoid going into the forest for their safety, which makes me immediately suspicious. This islands pretty big, there are numerous ways to set up a pretty big hidey-hole and means of transportation without anyone in the mansion or grounds noticing, assuming they aren't in on it... as well as having another port on another side of the island. All so that somebody can stroll up and "appear out of nowhere", especially when one is otherwise occupied in a high stress task like apologizing to your daughter for losing control again. This is really what it all comes down to, doesn't it... there are so many secrets and holes in both this place and people that we can't be sure if anything's real, even if Beatrice is telling the story fairly, which I doubt.
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Oct 27, 2016 14:06
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ProfessorProf posted:
Aw man, I've been waiting for Beatrice's smug rear end in a top hat grin to slip up all LP so far, and goddamn if it wasn't Shannon that made it happen! Wow, we've been on a rollercoaster with her all this episode, haven't we: first she capitulates to the witch and breaks the mirror, while Kanon defies the witch and refuses to be trapped in a poisonous relationship, but as soon as Beato shows up on this island, it's Opposite Day- Kanon still bangs the furniture drum and kisses B's feet to save Shannon, but Shannon uses her newfound assertiveness to tell her where she can stick her promises and threats. You go, girl! (Still don't really think her thing with George is the healthiest thing, though, but if it helps her tell a dangerous megalomaniac to gently caress off, I guess I can deal. Of course, now I wonder if she'll eat it this time too...  )I guess it was nice seeing that very human moment between Kinzo and Nanjo, showing that they really are buds... taken with her moment with Natsuhi last ep, I guess even the old rear end in a top hat gets at leasr one humanizing moment per chapter. And things are heating up a little quicker at dinner this time, and at least Maria doesn't get the third degree, but I am wondering where it's going to go from here. (Looking forward to it, but we are approaching the end of the month... how is your wrist doing, Prof?)
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Oct 29, 2016 17:27
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"I will have nothing to do with you. I will carry out the fate that has been given to me. So I won't entertain you."
"Nothing to do with youuu...?"
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ProfessorProf posted:
Creepy Maria does have a point here which exposes the entire flaw in the "flip the chessboard" logic- Battler's assuming it will reveal the opponent through their moves, but what if the opponent isn't playing chess, but checkers? Or Go or Shogi or what have you? The chess analogy only works if you consider things through the rules of chess, and Battler is clearly no chess player with the amount of times he's been caught in circular arguments. "Making different moves" is certainly something to expect, but Maria calls it magic when it's really cheating. When it's making up your own drat moves and saying you've won because no one realizes... which is pretty much what Beatrice has done all this game, hasn't she? Or maybe she did something amazing in front of the siblings to make them, submit to her will... but people have been doing "amazing things" for fun and profit since time immemorial! I mean, look at her new picture now:  Black suitcoat, tie, fancy cane that's probably got a flash trick... all she needs is a top hat to pull rabbits out of and a deck of cards to make the image complete. I doubt Rudolf would have declared somebody an island spirit because they turned a napkin into a dove, though, so what gives?
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Oct 30, 2016 20:21
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"...But you know what? Sorry Battler, but your chess partner isn't human. She's a witch. She can move her pieces in ways that humans can't. Right now, your knowledge is wrong. Battler, you like auntie Kyrie's chessboard thinking, right?"
"...Yeah. I like that style of thinking where you stand in your opponent's position."
"And that's useless. Even though your opponent is a witch, you won't accept that. So you can't understand the moves a witch can make, and your chessboard thinking won't work. Your knowledge of your opponent is wrong. The very first premise of chessboard thinking is broken down."
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Oh. ...Oh. I had wondered if there was a reason he wanted to get to this point on this day, and... hell, I got my answer, didn't I? Beatrice, or the person posing as her, is a loving psychopath. Good thing Maria didn't find this first, because you know she would have gone straight to that table and started playing and eating... you do not eat things in blood and guts, Maria, that's how you get diseases! So, six people chosen again, in a much more detailed manner than last time. And once again, the one I'm most suspicious of is Genji- he didn't really do anything to control the situation, but every other servant with them showed strong emotion to seeing their masters die, but he's just as calm as ever. It might be because he's just that good at being the Butler's Butler, but these bodies weren't just killed, but mutilated in a horrible manner*; you'd think that would get as reaction from anybody, something! So I'm still suspicious of you, old man, I've got my eye on you! And speaking of old men, that's a really interesting scene with Kinzo in the beginning, not only with his dismissal of humanity but... does he remember what happened last time? Is he able to remember past iterations of this ritual, as no one else can, somehow? Oh my god... how long has this family been at this?  *and no, I'm not loving saying that they were ensorcelled to death; I'll give the fella points for authenticity as throwing up things that couldn't have hot into the body, like frogs or stones or pins, are traditional indicators of witchcraft, but before anyone says magic you'd better show me the medical exam first
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Oct 31, 2016 15:04
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Like Clockwork posted:Kinzo already has a redeeming quality! Well, there are a couple of others- his friendship with Nanjo seems to be very real, as well as his relationships with the servants; for all that he's a terrible father, he does seem to be a pretty good boss. We can see the hallmarks of his parenting all over, though; Rosa is the most obvious example, but there's the way that the kids aren't allowed to be around when they talk about the inheritance with Grandpa... is it really because it's grownup business, or is it the adults frantically trying to keep their children from the same abuse they received growing up? Are they even allowed to be in the same room alone with Grandpa? We don't know yet since he's been kept away from the family so far (for an as yet unknown reason), but it makes me dread when it actually gets shown what life in his household was like. I kinda wonder if Gohda is going to get some characterization, because Jesus, what a brown-nosing piss-ant... His absolute horror at seeing his sugar daddy stuffed to the brim with actual sugar already does a lot to humanize him.
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Nov 1, 2016 14:13
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Jesus loving CHRIST!!  Suddenly the bandwagon of all of this being done by some horrific entity beyond human reason looks more tempting than ever, because nothing that has ever been human pulls faces like that. But I'm not going to jump on it quite yet, because of a thing I've noticed... Beatrice's appearance is reactive to Battler, and thus to the reader, makes me think there's something more going on here. At first, we didn't see Beatrice as anything other than a memory or a legend based around some picture, and the murders as horrific, but well within the realm of possibility to be committed by a human suspect. But once the murders piled up and the first episode ended, enter Beatrice in all her splendor as a fabulous witch with a dress and a wand, right out of Maria's stories, and acted right nicely until Battler challenged her, which brought out a more sinister side. And then when this episode began, we saw from the servants perspective how they- or rather how Shannon- saw her: a melancholy spirit trapped on the island, who looks after those who respect her and help people see love. But the minute the viewpoint shifts to Kanon, we see a sinister, cackling demoness, a dark fairy who meddles with other peoples lives for her amusement. And now, after Battler has witnessed the abomination that the Six Sacrifices were turned into this go-round, that's what Beatrice looks like to him now: an abomination, for who could do something so monstrous but an actual monster? To put it simply: Beatrice has been portrayed as whatever the character seeing her portrays her as in their mind, and that makes it difficult for me to call her a person in her own right. She's quite a character, certainly... but does that mean she's real? Take her away... Well there it is, the crux of the matter. It's not that she doesn't think this horrible thing is actually great, and it's not that she shinks she's a monster or wants to grow up to be a monster herself, or particularly wants to hurt anybody: she's just laser focused on the Golden Land, the promise of the witch that there's a place where dreams come true and no one gets hurt. It's her castle on a cloud. There's a thing I've been thinking about Maria and her relationship to the Witch, that persona in which she creepily cackles but also drops her placeholder sound and speaks her age, maybe a little beyond. She assumes it typically after the existence of magic, Beatrice, witches, or the Golden Land is questioned or denied, but there was another place this chapter where she threw it up: after her mother beats her and literally tramples on her dreams, and she's at her lowest and least powerful point. Powerlessness... that causes her to throw the Witch up, not because she's trying to be mean or creepy, but because she wants to protect herself and feel more powerful in the face of what threatens her. There's a phrase that comes up in psychological analysis that I do not know is appropriate here, IANAP, but here it is: The Witch is Maria's protector identity, something she created and even gifted higher cognitive ability to in order to protect the one real hope that things will get better she has. It's the same sort of obsession that Kinzo displays, and for a lot of the same reason: Magic has to be real, Beatrice must exist, and the faith that she puts in solving the Epitaph will be rewarded in the end. Because if it isn't, then all of this is for nothing, and she herself is nothing but a poor, scared, lonely girl in the rain; with no friends; one parental figure out of the picture, and another who beats, yells at, and finds it impossible to love her; relatives who might as well live on the moon for all they help or care about her... and a sad little crushed jack-o-lantern candy you can't even eat. gently caress me, between that and a Witch, which would you rather be?
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Nov 2, 2016 15:52
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Wh... WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!? Oh, come the gently caress on, this reads like badly crafted fan-fiction. "And then I tottaly summoned a demon fromhell, with a goat head! And then Kanon had the laser sword battle with it Pew Pew, and then I guess he won, but then I summoned ANOTHER demon (because I'm, like, totally awesome) and then..." Do you expect me to buy any of this crap- I mean, anime girls what turn into stakes the ricochet a bajillion times around the room, what the gently caress? You want an explanation for this, here's your explanation: Beatrice loving binge-read loving Fate/Stay Night one day, and is now regaling Battler over their chessboard in Purgatory with the bits got upvoted on FF.net, that's what! loving laser swords? gently caress off... vvv: NO!! resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Nov 5, 2016 |
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Nov 5, 2016 13:39
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vector_to posted:Well, most of it. One line in particular stood out to me this time. The witch's furniture said she was going to kill Kanon "again". I guess this means that the furniture is the personification of the stake that killed him in the first game? If that's the case, it raises a curious point, that some characters on the gameboard can remember other ones. I wonder if this is going to be addressed in a purgatory scene later. Something else of interest, although not a line, is that Beatrice had a wardrobe change again. When she confronts Kanon in the hallway, she's business casual, and in Jessica's room, she's hyper-formal. Makes me wonder if Beatrice might actually be two people working together this time round. Yeah, I noticed that too. Another thing I noticed, and which makes me suspect hinkiness: Kanon produced a magic sword from his arm this go round, while last time around, he used an ax. Why would he do that, if he can just sprout magic swords and whatnot at his whim? He seems to care a lot about Shannon, so if the swords are other things that "cannot be seen" without love, I don't see why he wouldn't bust that out if it were an option. Something else I noticed in all of the brouhaha: the way Beatrice talked about furniture is almost the way one would talk about a familiar. Kinzo made the servants wear his crest... could he be so dedicated to the art that he actually tried to name them his familiars, and possibly try to do things like see things out of them and such?
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Nov 5, 2016 14:53
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oath2order posted:Soooooooo resurgammmm has the witch met your expectations? You said you wanted to see something that couldn't be explained as a simple magic trick yesssss? How long do you intend to deny the plain evidence in frontt of your face. I have to admit, this would be impressive if I were there. I wonder if a summoning is what the witch performed to get all the adults to admit her power. I suppose I'd be admitting the reality of magic were real too. ...If I were there, and there were other people to verify what I saw. And after that, I would need an explanation for what happened, and an experiment that could be replicated, by other people, in another situation, more than once. Are you saying, with this post, that if I went to a blacksmith and made myself a Stake of Purgatory that corresponds to wrath, and I made the appropriate gestures in the appropriate manner, that stake would turn into an anime girl calling herself Satan of Wrath? That if I were to brand myself with a One-Winged Eagle and hold my arm just so, I'd get a lightsaber out of my arm myself? These are the questions that proof demands, because the wonderful thing about science is, you don't have to have love to see it, so to speak. If, for example, I combined ammonia with hydrogen, in either liquid or gaseous form, I would have ammonium chloride; I would always have ammonium chloride, no matter the location, or how I feel at the time, or what day of the week it is or if mercury is on the ascendant. Nor do I have to have to be wearing a gemstone, or be the seventh son of a seventh son- all I need is NH3 + HCl = NH4Cl, and I have Nushadir salt. Wonderful thing about science really. Besides, this entire framing device calls things into question; we're not seeing things as Battler remembered them happening, we're seeing essentially a what if scenario, presented by somebody who wasn't present for the Rokkenjima Massacre, hypothesizing what would happen if she was there. She really has no reason to tell Battler the truth, and is a dangerous, prideful megalomaniac besides: why wouldn't she go on and on about her terrible might and beauty, even if it does go completely against the tone and rules set by the narrative in Ep1?
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Nov 6, 2016 03:24
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So, a new weft in the games rules, and an extremely welcome one at that; I too have a lot of issues with how these scenarios are represented and the back and forth that can happen when there's no real platform of truth to stand on. Battler may not trust the red rule, but sadistic rear end in a top hat that Beatrice is, I don't think she'll break this rule. There's her genuine love of games to consider, but beyond that, there's nothing more a devil likes than using scripture for his purposes. And while we're on the subject, Beatrice might be an awful troll, but it's kinda hard not to see her point when she cackles at Butler about his incompetence. It's not only that he's thick, it's that he's uncreative; he does frequently go back to the same wells again and again ("Hidden doors! Faked keys! Chessboards!") and although he's right when he says there's no proof that they aren't there, he also doesn't have any proof they are. So his clinging to the belief that they are is little different from Maria or Kinzo clinging to their belief of magic or witches, ironically, and it sets him in an argumentative rut in which progress cant be made because certain things have to be true "because THEY JUST ARE, OK!?" In this very thread we had a perfectly reasonable explanation as to how the chapel could be opened after handing Maria the envelope: the original envelope Beatrice gave to Maria didn't have the key in there, allowing her to open the chapel as she likes, and then just switched the keys when she was sleeping before Rosa collected it. That would allow whoever committed the murder plenty of time in which to create a Murder Scene going in and out of the Chapel at their leisure, whilst creating the illusion that Maria had the key all along. But Battler hasn't even considered that yet because because he's too hung up on the door (and has an unfortunate tendency to dismiss Maria in his mind due to her creepiness and the unfortunate tendency of some people to discount what young children say because they're kids and are not supposed to know poo poo). It is a little bit frustrating, so I'm glad that this effort is made by the witch, even if it is just another attempt at breaking Battler.
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Nov 6, 2016 13:41
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vector_to posted:The red is going to be the crux of all the mysteries from here on out, isn't it? It's nice to have something absolute to rely on, but it kind of kills the fun of looking for clues in the narrative if we're just going to be spoon-fed the truths we need. The other problem with the bit wit Jessica is: Battler didn't comment on it whatsoever, and with his dogged skepticism, I think he'd have something to say about goat-men with laser swords out of loving nowhere. So does that mean Beatrice didn't tell him about it, and is sticking with Battler's perspective anyway? Because if she really wanted to prove magic, why doesn't she bust out the lightsabers first thing? But woo, go us, for being smarter than a highschooler!  I'd like to take credit for that, but I think it was Qrr who mentioned that first, making him/her the MVP of this round.
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Nov 7, 2016 15:44
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"I'll teach you what it really means to disrespect the dead..." All of the positions of the other servants are known or could be accurately guessed, and we know the master key fact is real because Beato used the red... so thinking that it was Kanon that killed Jessica is a pretty logical hypothesis with the information we have. That still leaves the Chapel murders unsolved, as nobody (but Rosa, really, since we saw in her head) has an alibi for that. So if we really are leaving out the goat-man... who else could it have been? e: motherfucker, these names... This is the second time I've done that, haven't I? Me am reed gud 
resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Nov 8, 2016 |
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Nov 8, 2016 14:47
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| # ¿ May 3, 2024 09:56 |
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Well, it's good to see Battler being more proactive this go-round at least, both on island and in Purgatory. But how does he prove what happened? Let's review the red statements: There are no hidden doors. The key is the only way in or out. The only way to lock the door is with either Jessica's key or a master key. the window is locked from the inside. Kanon was killed in this room. When locked, it does not permit any form of entry or exit. No trick could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key. Taken all together... it has the same sort of problem as the chapel did, didn't it: not only is Beato staunchly referring to her magic junk in the red, but she's not saying either the door or the window weren't used. So if Kanon was killed in this room, what's to stop the killer from dumping his body out the window, locking the door with a master key, and then taking care of the body? As Doc Hawkins just pointed out, she avoided saying how many keys there were, or defining "servant"... or, come to think of it, whether all the servants were in possession of their own keys within the timeframe.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:02
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