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Like Clockwork posted:Kinzo already has a redeeming quality! Quoted for truth. He could be the worst person in the world but we'd still love to hate his deranged ramblings to OOUUUHHH BEAAATORIIIIICHEEEEE.
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Nov 1, 2016 13:29
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resurgam40 posted:for all that he's a terrible father, he does seem to be a pretty good boss. Except for that whole "furniture" thing that Kanon is caught up on, maybe. I think with that in mind it'd be better to phrase it as "He's bad with kids but good with pets". He seems to treat Genji well, mainly, but Gohda is excluded from being "important" and both Shannon and Kanon some have pretty deeply ingrained self-worth issues, so it seems mostly that you're treated well if you know your place. Not exactly Boss Of The Year in that light. EDIT: Then again, I don't know if Kinzo himself has ever used that term, so it's entirely possible I'm blaming him for Krauss and Eva being turbo assholes. KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 15:21
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resurgam40 posted:Jesus loving CHRIST!! We don't even know if this go-around is real, considering that the Battler and Beatrice conversation there is a completely out-of-scene aside. It's more like two people playing Clue, except one of them holds all the cards and the other thinks he's playing chess. That said, I am definitely in agreement about the idea that a demon - in the 'inner demons' sense, not the 'Satan' sense - is far more likely than a witch. EDIT: It's worth noting that scenes like this seem to be the biggest argument I've seen in favor of Ryushiki's original art; unlike Higurashi's goofy out of place mittenpeople, there's actually a bit more emotion in facial expressions in Umineko Original. Compare:  to:  KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Nov 2, 2016 |
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Nov 2, 2016 18:42
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Suddenly the bandwagon of all of this being done by some horrific entity beyond human reason looks more tempting than ever, because nothing that has ever been human pulls faces like that. But I'm not going to jump on it quite yet, because of a thing I've noticed... Beatrice's appearance is reactive to Battler, and thus to the reader, makes me think there's something more going on here. At first, we didn't see Beatrice as anything other than a memory or a legend based around some picture, and the murders as horrific, but well within the realm of possibility to be committed by a human suspect. But once the murders piled up and the first episode ended, enter Beatrice in all her splendor as a fabulous witch with a dress and a wand, right out of Maria's stories, and acted right nicely until Battler challenged her, which brought out a more sinister side. And then when this episode began, we saw from the servants perspective how they- or rather how Shannon- saw her: a melancholy spirit trapped on the island, who looks after those who respect her and help people see love. But the minute the viewpoint shifts to Kanon, we see a sinister, cackling demoness, a dark fairy who meddles with other peoples lives for her amusement. And now, after Battler has witnessed the abomination that the Six Sacrifices were turned into this go-round, that's what Beatrice looks like to him now: an abomination, for who could do something so monstrous but an actual monster?
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vector_to posted:On the topic of Rosa, why is she surprised by any of this? She was there with the rest of the siblings when Beatrice proved herself to be a witch (presumably by revealing the 3 bars of gold). I actually looked it up, because I could have swore she wasn't, and yet... ProfessorProf posted:
So yeah. There you go, she's even more suspicious than before since aside from Beatrice (who has, naturally, gone AWOL), she's the only one that was around the Chapel the night before who didn't end up a ventilated corpse. vector_to posted:This throws up yet another question, however. If she knows where the gold is herself, why is she so eager for the rest of the family to solve the epitaph? Does it lead to something other than the gold? Assumedly, solving the epitaph is essential to keep Beatrice from killing everybody, assuming that she's going to be the one blamed for the deaths. KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Nov 3, 2016 |
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Nov 3, 2016 23:28
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"...I, I also accept it. No doubt."
"Yes. I accept it. Without even a scrap of a complaint. I can't believe it's real... I honestly have feelings of respect."
"Me too... Incredible. I genuinely respect that. So I have to accept it."
"I also accept that... I still can't believe it. But, what can I do? You've proven devils! It's your victory...!"
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vector_to posted:On the one hand, nothing magical going on here. Beatrice probably has the VIP room key, so there's no contradiction with her locking the door, then hiding in an adjacent room until Gohda leaves. I wonder what she would have done had he hung about, though. It's not magic, it's AnimeTM. 
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Nov 4, 2016 14:25
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Well.  Try to explain how things got violently anime at the drop of a hat without using magic, Ushiromiya Battler.
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Nov 5, 2016 12:51
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resurgam40 posted:so if the swords are other things that "cannot be seen" without love, Without love, it cannot have lightsabers. Mister Olympus posted:Without love, it cannot be seen. Gotta say, the body type is different than anyone we've seen in the setting so far; it's definitely something that Exists or Does Not Exist alongside witches, since there's no real way for it to be someone else in a disguise. Also of course the stakes anthropomorphize into schoolgirls. 
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Nov 5, 2016 16:20
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JohnOfOrdo3 posted:Interesting., but at least now we've got concrete information we can use to reason. Before we could claim unreliable narrator or that we were being lied to in some way. I actually saw the clip of this from the anime a little before this LP went up, so I'm going to stay out of this discussion since I know the answer. But I look forward to banging my head against the future ones until I give up too. Yeah, red text exists solely to give a source credibility, from my view of things. We've been presented another tool - someone speaking in red is a reliable, if imperfect, narrator. After all, everything we've seen in red thus far can be taken as the truth, but also has its own loopholes that have to be closed by more red text in order to keep going. For example:  Not only does this present the option of them being dead before they entered, it also doesn't say when they entered, or what door was entered, just "the door". Beatrice even has to red-text that it was the front door after, to clarify. And that actually gives a flow to the game, a back and forth that actually shows progress once Battler gets his head out of his rear end - he presents a loophole, Beatrice has to redtext in such a way to close it, which could open further loopholes. Thesaya posted:This game is the last I would expect to make a Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy reference. And Kinzo would be the last character I'd think would be the one making it. Well, I mean, we've already established that Kinzo is a bit of a westaboo who keeps his collection of GRIMOIRES, NOT BOOKS, GEEZ under lock and key. He also seems to be the type who would fully buy into the idea that flight is a matter of throwing yourself at the ground and missing.
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Nov 6, 2016 20:46
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resurgam40 posted:Because if she really wanted to prove magic, why doesn't she bust out the lightsabers first thing? Because everybody who saw (except Beato, who has her own reasons for making poo poo up) it is, effectively, dead. It's a flourish, an overdramatization that can neither be proven nor disproven - like one of the cheap parlor tricks mentioned earlier in the thread. It's not meant to be true, it's meant to distract from the original closed room murders since honestly, literally anyone could have killed Jessica and Kanon, theirs wasn't a closed room by any means. But with lightsabers and beefy goatmen and stake-person schoolgirls, you lose track of the fact that it was just two kids getting shanked without any sort of mystery to it.
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Nov 7, 2016 15:49
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oath2order posted:I don't believe we have a Red Truth confirming Beatrice is not 3 chimpanzees stacked on top of each other wearing a ball room gown. Now now, the second chimpanzee is the brassiere.
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Nov 8, 2016 01:49
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It is really suspicious that Kanon doesn't seem to be there. I know the magic-believing narrative (I think at this point it's easier to say "this is what happens ~with magic~  " and "this is how it would go in a world without magic  ", both seem to be 'true' from different angles) posits that he exploded into butterflies, but it just leaves a gaping loophole where there's a "murder" with no body, which seems pretty blindingly obvious as a loose end to unravel, either as an actual culprit or an incredibly intentional red herring by the real culprit.After all, if someone killed Kanon, they could just as easily make use of Kanon's master key as long as there's no confirmation it's on the body. KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Nov 8, 2016 |
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Nov 8, 2016 17:05
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There's also the argument of wordplay if that's such a factor. If Kanon killed Jessica, as per the running theory, then it could potentially involve a death of identity - "Kanon", the human servant who was starting to come out of his shell and fall for her, died when she did. But "Kanon", the furniture (in the witch's familiar sense we were introduced to with LIGHTSABER GOATMEN) who has no aims of his own but to serve his keeper, was still alive and acting at another's bidding. Granted, he doesn't look like he's alive for long.
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Nov 10, 2016 20:36
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resurgam40 posted:Absolutely, since we know that she already becomes a demon from her scenes... and not to protect. As demonstrated by her "Oh look, let's just point a rifle at my loving nephew for a second" thing. Though I don't really blame her by suspecting Genji (because I suspect him myself, for many reasons, and apparently he also knows how to use knives in combat? hm), and she does seem to be thinking about things in a logical manner, instead of mostly freaking out about things, so that's a step up. That said, while I don't much suspect Rosa (viewpoint character, and all), the idea of "why wouldn't I just loving shoot everyone here if I did it" is... not a particularly good way to prove one's innocence, no matter how much they seem to be acquiescing to the crazy lady with a gun right now. KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 23:22
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Zack Ater posted:Which Prof replied to with the red text (which I then quoted and replied to.) I'm saying that if there is such a lock, it could used to lock the door from inside the room before leaving, in which case it doesn't contradict the red text. I think I understand what you're saying, given we have doors here that work like that - where if you lock the door (from the 'inside') while it's open, it will remained locked after it's closed. It comes down, then, to if that counts as "a trick" and if the door unlocks when it closes/can be locked when it's open.
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Nov 11, 2016 06:45
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So um, what was that about nitpicking?  Honestly, if we take the "Witch Beatrice is a mental state that affects other people" theory to heart, Kanon apparently got hit with it hard.At least this one is easy enough to solve for the reader, I mean, lightsaber or no lightsaber, three survivors just saw a dude flip out and murder an old lady and a doctor, obviously due to some sort of near-death delirium of his own.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:02
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MonsterEnvy posted:Gohda is a servant as well. But yeah he does not seem be be as in the know as the others. He's a servant, but as far as I know, only Genji, Shannon, and Kanon have ever been referred to as "furniture". That's... kind of important now that it's been shown to be more than just a derisive, dehumanizing title.
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Nov 12, 2016 17:12
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Yeah, I think the implication is "if something is impossible, a Any contradictions in red text are meant to drive the other player into "this is a failure state without actual magic"; magic's entire purpose is to break the rules of the game at all opportunities.
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Nov 13, 2016 22:07
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Yeah. It's things like this that show just how intimately Ryukishi learned about the nature of this sort of beast from his work as a social worker. Still, as much as it's logical that she acts this way, loving hell this is a bad time to go on a power trip, Rosa.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:29
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resurgam40 posted:VV Yeah, the bit with Kyrie is a puzzler, isn't it? As well as her appearance to Jessica and Kanon together, although that has some mitigating factors like the fact that it might not even happened... So how did Kyrie see her? Either she has issues we simply don't know about yet (seriously, she's still one big question mark to me character-wise), or my theory is bad and I should feel bad. Well, there's the factor that she's been a victim on the first night both times so far. If she actually survives, we can see how that theory pans out.
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Nov 16, 2016 22:00
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I'm assuming that the grammar of the translation falling apart was an intentional choice to mirror Beatrice essentially losing her poo poo there, as opposed to actual botched proofing/editing? That said: You go, Shannon, you did one thing Battler hasn't managed yet to do, and that is to make Beatrice flip right the gently caress out. Something touched a nerve and I think we all have a pretty decent suspicion of what - and why a non-magic Beatrice would want to completely slaughter everyone and everything attached to Kinzo Ushiromiya. oath2order posted:Also, if you don't normally listen to the music you REALLY REALLY should click on WorldEndDominator, which is in the running for the best music track of the Question Arc. Both WorldEndDominator and moon are a sign of the musical quality of the game going up drastically, yeah.
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Nov 18, 2016 22:38
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tiistai posted:Not to detract you from making a point, but if you didn't watch the video she just magically changed clothes in the middle of it. Can't a girl pick an outfit to match the occasion? Well, it doesn't change the point - she wouldn't've changed without there being some reason, be it symbolic or what.
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Nov 20, 2016 00:23
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Well, that's something I've also been considering... It seems that at least some of the time, piece-Battler is also saying what meta-Battler is ranting at Beato. The other pawns at least sometimes respond to meta-Battler's rants and the setting transitions make it look like he's kinda dissociating? It's eroding my faith in his reliability. Bholder posted:But what if Rosa is right, and he isn't the Battler they know! It's entirely possible that the metaverse/purgatorio version of Battler is in fact not the Battler that existed in this "game" prior to it being narrated. So here's a question that you'd never think to ask in a game where Magic And Witches Don't Exist: if you take the place of an alternate reality version of yourself, are you still you, or are you the alternate you? Is it possible that meta-Battler is there, witnessing, whereas actual-Battler is off elsewhere, doing Shenanigans where his meta-self can't see?
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Nov 22, 2016 00:27
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SardonicTyrant posted:This is a very interesting scene, because until this post, I've accepted everything Battler has experienced as the only thing we can truly trust. But Battler's kind of drunk here, so should we, the viewers, accept that Beatrice's explanations explained everything? The key here is that "everything Battler has experienced" is not "everything the reader has experienced". We still don't know the explanations to everything that happened here, just that Battler - assumedly, game-Battler, but possibly meta-Battler, too - accepts them as "logical". He may have made that choice under the influence of something, or out of duress and desperation to just end the suffering that is this clusterfuck of a game, we're not told that. Just that Battler conceded defeat. Battler is given answers. We are not. Interestingly, it openly says that Rosa denied the witch. I wonder if she's going to get everyone grimdark'd like Battler did in the first go around.
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Nov 23, 2016 02:14
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resurgam40 posted:What is this all really about? I think, for the moment, this is all about Rosa going  and staring down an army of goat butlers with a shotgun, a giant gold ingot, and a ballpoint pen.Which is to say, we've got more information than we did at the end of the first chapter, but not as much as we need. That said, Beato's reaction to Battler's freakout at the very end there (as well as the profiles, in their own way) implies that she wants him to keep fighting, at least one part of her. KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 18:59
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MonsterEnvy posted:Maybe we will play with Meta Rosa now. I think that already happened. Relatedly, I hear the new Doom remake is selling like gangbusters.
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Nov 24, 2016 04:08
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oath2order posted:On the other hand, Episode 3 is my second favorite episode in the series overall. Why? In a word: Jeek posted:I'm pretty sure we will have many more The only thing I can think of when I read these posts is that the thread title should've been "Where we're going, we won't need Love to see"
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Nov 26, 2016 03:35
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Holy hell I forgot how well Suzuki does psycho-face. Troll Eva and anti-furniture Rosa look like their faces are practically melting alongside their sanity, honestly. I have to agree that Natsumi's art fits the Umineko tone a little better, though - Higurashi's tone was a little closer to psychological horror so those kinds of expressions meshed a lot better with it.
KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 00:05
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oath2order posted:This is correct. Despite the demonic names, The 7 Sisters of Purgatory are furniture created by the witch, while Ronove is explicitly one of the demons of the Key of Solomon that formed a contract with Beato. I think the distinction is that the Sisters/Stakes are explicitly meant to be the embodiment of the sin, and thus take on the names of the demons most associated with that sin? So that Asmodeus is more the "Lust" part than the "demon" part, and assumedly all the others would be the same.
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Dec 2, 2016 04:41
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John Lee posted:You forgot BEATORICHIIIIIIII Pretty sure that falls under "OH DESIRE". KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 07:02
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Dr Pepper posted:Kumasawa and Ghoda. I think resurgam's point is that unlike the other servants, Kumasawa and Gouda haven't been called to Kinzo's quarters to watch  . Or at least, they haven't shown up in this scene.
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Dec 11, 2016 22:12
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CottonWolf posted:And Battler. Battler pretty clearly saw that last bit of magic. I'm still not sure how literally we're meant to take the higher level of the chess game though. Well, I mean. Meta Battler is in Purgatorio with Beatrice, a realm that by its definition is magical in nature. It probably does not actually exist if magic does not exist, and by that recknoning, the Battler that witnesses this magic is also a part of it.
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Dec 13, 2016 00:32
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:My hypothesis is now that Kumasawa is the mistress. Well, she looks to be about Kinzo's age, so it's a lot less skeevy than what was implied earlier on?
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Dec 13, 2016 18:30
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resurgam40 posted:A being who can smother an island in breasts  I don't think I want to read that Umineko dojin.
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Dec 14, 2016 16:44
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Jeabus Mahogany posted:Yeah that battle was just a wonderful visual metaphor for walking up to someone and just stabbing them or whatever. Alternately, if you believe in magic/ , that was some Fist of the North Star poo poo. You are already dead, indeed.
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Dec 15, 2016 23:24
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Rune Full Moon posted:The only good thing about Kinzo is that you can accuse him of basically anything and it'd fit his character. Well, I mean, he couldn't've locked his own door, he was the only one in that chain of closed rooms without a Master Key. Unless he did it with magic.
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Dec 16, 2016 20:59
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Qrr posted:Since it does require an outside person... Nanjos alibi wasn't great, was it? He's the only one, as far as I can recall, who didn't have other people around to testify for said alibi. The adults were all fighting about inheritance, the kids were all shored up in the guest house
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Dec 17, 2016 02:41
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oath2order posted:The truth is, there is no such thing as witches. Vampires, on the other hand... That certainly explains how he dresses.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:08
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EagerSleeper posted:Wrap it up, folks. The location of the gold has been found. If Kinzo wrapped it up we wouldn't have these four shitheads (and their spouses, in three cases) being awful at each other.
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Dec 20, 2016 23:16
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halfhazardKnight posted:There's no need to hope that that scene happened. Magic is real, thus all of this absolutely happened. Turns out most of the Ushiromiya family are badasses, who knew? Well, so far we've seen that Krauss is bad and also an rear end, I guess that counts. Sindai posted:I love how it drops Kyrie's big reveal and then immediately goes into pro wrestling math. You got a 25% chance, at best, at beat Kyrie! Then you add Rudolf Ushiromiya to the mix, you chance of winning, drastic go down!
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Dec 28, 2016 23:08
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Danaru posted:From what I remember it's actually pretty dang good. Major spoilers though, for example I can't even mention the character I'm best with because they haven't actually appeared in the story yet. Yeah, the 2D fighter is as solid as you'd expect from "dojin fighting game based off of visual novel characters" (see also: Melty Blood and Nitroplus Blasterz for examples of this working, or Fate/Tiger Colosseum for an example where it kind of falls apart). The problem is, it takes from the entire series, of which we're less than three out of eight chapters done with at this point, so to say there's heavy spoilers in it is like saying there's a few fish in the Pacific Ocean.
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Dec 30, 2016 02:44
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