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Maybe the NFL should look into trying some gimmicky offenses
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Sep 17, 2016 20:26
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You could cap each player at an individual number of passes per game, say 15. Then instead of having one irreplacable specialist with one really good skill who boringly stands in the pocket and dictates 70% of your offensive success, you might instead design an offense around having several more well-rounded and athletic ballhandling players who you wouldn't be afraid to also have run, catch etc. Thus ushering in a new era of inventive, exciting pro football and less whining about how there aren't enough QBs
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Sep 17, 2016 20:38
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joe football posted:You could cap each player at an individual number of passes per game, say 15. Then instead of having one irreplacable specialist with one really good skill who boringly stands in the pocket and dictates 70% of your offensive success, you might instead design an offense around having several more well-rounded and athletic ballhandling players who you wouldn't be afraid to also have run, catch etc. Thus ushering in a new era of inventive, exciting pro football and less whining about how there aren't enough QBs Oh boy, every team finishing 8-8. A good, well-supported minor league system is how most problems in play quality is cured.
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Sep 17, 2016 21:26
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General Dog posted:Maybe the NFL should look into trying some gimmicky offenses Chip Kelly just spent the last several years doing that and whelp. Then again, the Pats stole all the good parts of Chip's system in 2011 or something.
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Sep 17, 2016 22:55
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once all the good old boys like Jeff Fisher die there might actually be coaches that believe in developing qbs and not just scratching their heads quizzically when another new England qb comes in and does well immediately
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Sep 17, 2016 22:56
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Febreeze posted:Good coaches and patient, supportive front offices. That's the real shortage. This is pretty much it. For instance, Sam Bradford. There's a real chance he would've never lived up to the hype anyway, just based on his draft position and that insane rookie contract he got. But he went through something like three different OCs in his first three years in the league, plus however many more he's had since. Nothing keeps a QB's career in neutral much constantly switching offensive coordinators on him and essentially hitting the reset button on that player. It's why Alex Smith didn't do much until Jim Harbaugh showed up, and why Jay Cutler never really turned the corner in Chicago despite being incredibly gifted physically. There's no guarantee that a QB is going to pan out anyway, but the surest way to make sure it doesn't happen is to constantly switch offensive schemes on him.
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Sep 17, 2016 23:46
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Durandal1707 posted:This is pretty much it. To expand on this a little bit, I once posited in TFF that the only thing such disparate quarterbacks (in terms of style, body type, level of athleticism, etc) as Brady, both Mannings, Brees, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Romo, Luck and Newton all have in common is that once they were proclaimed THE GUY for their respective franchises, they were supported unconditionally in a vertical integration kind of way. From the owners, to the coaches, to the players, to the fans, everyone was on the same page, and if they stumbled or faltered, no one in the organization allowed any kind of controversy to flower -- it was squashed immediately whether it was Romo's kick holding failure, Eli's endless struggles with turnovers, to Ben's stupid decisions (on and off the field), Peyton's long-running narrative about choking in the playoffs, Brees' stature limitations, questions about Cam's leadership abilities, etc, et al; they are their team's GUY. That's not to say it's foolproof, as it seems pretty easy to gently caress up like Jeff Fisher and Rex Ryan's endless parade of OCs ruining Bradford and Sanchez, Matt Ryan' and Matthew Stafford's front offices constant failures at other critical areas of team building, Shannahan sacrificing RG3's body for the sake of a playoff win now. You can make a case that like 5 Browns QBs have been ruined by impatience and/or instability. It just goes on forever. tl;dr it doesn't seem to matter what body type or playing style a potential franchise quarterback has. What really seems to matter is unwavering organizational support and stable coaching and team management. But the front office and coaches can't be just anyone either.
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Sep 18, 2016 00:07
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Magicpants posted:We'll find out something hosed up about the new crop of QBs in time. Tom Brady used to be a good person, it's impossible to sustain success and popularity without something real bad surfacing. Roethlisberger has the rape, Brees the torture, Wilson the corporate whoring, Rodgers the homosexuality Homosexuality is not bad, please amend your post.
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Sep 18, 2016 04:07
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Oh boy, every team finishing 8-8. Having a minor league system for a sport where guys only really have a limited number of hits their body can take and where the average career length is 2.5 years doesn't really make much sense.
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Sep 18, 2016 04:24
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Durandal1707 posted:For instance, Sam Bradford. There's a real chance he would've never lived up to the hype anyway, just based on his draft position and that insane rookie contract he got. But he went through something like three different OCs in his first three years in the league, plus however many more he's had since. The only offensive coordinator Bradford has had for 2 years in a row is Brian Schottenheimer. That just seems...cruel.
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Sep 18, 2016 04:54
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Parmesan Basil posted:Homosexuality is not bad, please amend your post. Apparently he is also an immense douchebag for reasons unrelated to gayness, so his gayness won't result in his exclusion. Which in the end is the important thing. 
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Sep 18, 2016 14:01
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Ross Angeles posted:Having a minor league system for a sport where guys only really have a limited number of hits their body can take and where the average career length is 2.5 years doesn't really make much sense. It does if it's done like baseball where they don't have to be ruined in college by dumb poo poo for 3 years first. Let them get signed out of HS and go directly into it if they want.
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Sep 18, 2016 15:19
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Magicpants posted:We'll find out something hosed up about the new crop of QBs in time. Tom Brady used to be a good person, it's impossible to sustain success and popularity without something real bad surfacing. Roethlisberger has the rape, Brees the torture, Wilson the corporate whoring, Rodgers the homosexuality Who did Brees torture? 
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Sep 18, 2016 16:35
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Schwack posted:The NFL would be improved across the board with a legitimate development league. QB and oline play seem to be in some trouble. Something similar, without as many teams, of course, to baseball's minor leagues might be interesting. The Alabama Fightin' Biscuits vs. the Orlando Oranges in the first championship game!
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Sep 18, 2016 16:38
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whiteyfats posted:Who did Brees torture? Liberal sensibilities
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Sep 18, 2016 16:48
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whiteyfats posted:Who did Brees torture? Brees is a big noted supporter of Gitmo
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Sep 18, 2016 16:55
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MY NIGGA D-LINK posted:To expand on this a little bit, I once posited in TFF that the only thing such disparate quarterbacks (in terms of style, body type, level of athleticism, etc) as Brady, both Mannings, Brees, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Romo, Luck and Newton all have in common is that once they were proclaimed THE GUY for their respective franchises, they were supported unconditionally in a vertical integration kind of way. From the owners, to the coaches, to the players, to the fans, everyone was on the same page, and if they stumbled or faltered, no one in the organization allowed any kind of controversy to flower -- it was squashed immediately whether it was Romo's kick holding failure, Eli's endless struggles with turnovers, to Ben's stupid decisions (on and off the field), Peyton's long-running narrative about choking in the playoffs, Brees' stature limitations, questions about Cam's leadership abilities, etc, et al; they are their team's GUY. I feel you old bean, but on the other hand how long should a franchise wait to see if the guy actually has the skills to do it? The Browns had Hoyer and drafted Manziel, I think in the draft after Hoyer was out for the season in like week 6. Manziel was a horrible pick, and staying put or taking a different player would have been the right call. But did they undercut Hoyer by doing that? Could Hoyer have become a franchise guy? His post-Browns career suggests no, but I know that's not definitive. Then Manziel himself. They benched him that one time, after he had played well but Hoyer was healthy again. That was the wrong move, but did it seriously kill his confidence entirely? Did he have the potential, and that ruined it? It's so hard to say! Manziel is a young, athletic QB whose decision-making is not good. Isn't that the kind of guy who is supposed to sit and learn from the sidelines for a while, and get used to the speed of the NFL in practices? I'm not excusing the Browns, their decisions have been horrible. It's just hard to tell if the horrible decisions were the guys they got or how they treat them, or both, or the fact that jimmy haslam is an unqualified, ignorant jackass
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Sep 18, 2016 17:25
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Grittybeard posted:Let me try to see what this might have looked like back in 1990. I was thinking the same. I think almost by definition and the nature of competition, in any given year "about a third" of NFL QB's would be considered "bad". I don't think there's a "quarterback crisis" at all but, if there is, one factor may be the trend towards playing really young players early on rather than sitting them for a few years like teams used to do. Right now, we have: Great: Aaron Rogers Cam Newton Tom Brady Drew Brees Ben Roethlisberger Russel Wilson Really Good/Above Average Tony Romo Matt Ryan Matt Stafford Andrew Luck Phillips Rivers Eli Manning Joe Flacco Adequate Andy Dalton Ryan Fitzpatrick Alex Smith Jay Cutler Kirk Cousins Carson Palmer Ryan Tannehill Sam Bradford Rising Too early to say Carson Wentz Teddy Bridgewater Blake Bortles Marcus Mariotta Derek Carr Jameious Winston Brock Osweller Dak Prescott Tyrod Taylor Trevor Seiman Paxton Lynch Jared Goff Jimmy Garapolo Complete poo poo/Hopeless Case Keenum Mark Sanchez (is he in the league?) Blaine Gabbert RG3 Shaun Hill I don't know what to make of Kaepernick. I always thought he could play. I don't see a crisis here. Luck, Bortles, Winston, Mariotta, Wentz and Carr look to have bright futures. If anything, I think the position is on the rise. For comparison, I went back and looked at starters from 10 years ago, 2006: There are names on there like John Kitna, Chad Pennington, Rex Grossman, JP Losman, Jake Delhomme, David Carr, Matt Leinart, Vince Young, David Huard, David Garrard, Bruce Gradkowski, Byron Leftwich, Brad Johnson and Aaron Brooks. I think the ration of great to good to average to poo poo is about the same as it's always been.
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Sep 18, 2016 19:20
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I think the appearance cliches like "supporting the quarterback" are way more important to fans and sportswriters than it is to the actual football coaches. it seems like any quarterback drafted is going to be the future face of the franchise and if he doesn't pan out then its either on the coaching staff if he was a fan favorite or the player if he wasn't well liked. like, why did VY fail? leinart? leaf? and then why did nobody else pick them up for something beyond a camp body? were there specific failures of the organization that were actually fixable instead of something unreasonable like "lets put this player in a bubble and physically restrict him from spending thousands of dollars at the cheesecake factory". sometimes these guys just suck and you can't make them not suck I think the NFL fandom has a bigger problem with prospects not panning out compared to other sports, partially because of a lack of a big farm system and the immense and immediate value of any draft pick compared to those of any other sport, and then you combine it with an opaque evaluation process and it's pretty easy to get the idiot fan and media cliches we have now. I don't know what exactly a quick fix for this is, but trent richardson's downfall definitely fixed fans clamoring for a runningback in the first round. A quick observation I had too, I think drafting a QB is probably directly comparable to drafting a goalie in the NHL: there's some surefire first round picks but a whole lot of busts and all the hype and fan analysis is amplified when you only have 2-3 of them on your roster and they play the whole game. But like I said there's an entire farm system so any NHL team probably has 10 goalies in their system... I wonder if the NHL's system of allowing players to be drafted in high school and play through college would work out in the NFL...
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Sep 18, 2016 19:54
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The solution is to put the pass happy nfl back in the doghouse and bring back the wishbone.
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Sep 18, 2016 19:55
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There's a couple NFL QB's I still can't get a handle on. RG3 and Kaepernick showed enough to me to convince me that they could really play and somehow they both wound up in the "complete dogshit" category. I can't recall a recent QB who experienced such a rapid fall from grace; a future star who is now universally regarded as sucking. These two guys in particular seemed destined for stardom. Who else came out and set the league on fire so fast and then fell just as quickly like that? Maybe Nick Foles? I guess the jury is out on Luck but I think he'll be fine, he's just on a bad team.
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Sep 18, 2016 20:14
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Shorter version as I'm phone posting, but RG3 and Kap both benefitted from the read option offense that had basically never been seen in the NFL before, among other things. In Griffin's case, they ran an offense that teams didn't know how to defend well, but was also very simple for the QB as far as reading defenses went, and he had decent talent around him like Morris and Garcon that helped. The combination of teams learning how to defend that offense, which they were shifting away from after his rookie year, and Griffin being "all in for week one" didn't help, but then you also have all the poo poo from his second year like the infamous picture where he had five players totally wide open and took a sack, or Chris Cooley breaking down a game where RG3 made every wrong read possible. For Kaepernick, someone did a good breakdown on him in another thread not too long ago. Basically, he took over a team with an awesome defense, an amazing offensive line, a great running back, and solid offensive weapons that had already nearly gotten to the Super Bowl. Adding Kaepernicks abilities and the read option only made them better. But then all those other pieces started to fall apart, particularly the offensive line, which exposed a lot of his weaknesses as a quarterback. And then Jim Tomsula happened. In both cases, they looked awesome early, but never really learned to read defenses or run offenses other the fairly simple ones that they had success in early. That's different from a guy like Nick Foles, who basically just had a single flukey year (Hell, it wasn't even a full season) of awesomeness on a talented team that really couldn't be replicated, which has happened many times before. See guys like Derek Anderson in 2007, Matt Cassel in 2008, or to use some older examples, Mark Rypien in 1991 or Scott Mitchell and Erik Kramer in 1995, among many others who basically had one great year in careers that were meh at best.
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Sep 19, 2016 14:56
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BiggerBoat posted:I was thinking the same. I think almost by definition and the nature of competition, in any given year "about a third" of NFL QB's would be considered "bad". I don't think there's a "quarterback crisis" at all but, if there is, one factor may be the trend towards playing really young players early on rather than sitting them for a few years like teams used to do. Carson Palmer adequate? wtf
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Sep 19, 2016 15:01
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NC-17 posted:Carson Palmer adequate? wtf OK. Bump him up. I'm looking at his entire career here. Rating him higher only solidifies my point though.
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Sep 20, 2016 14:43
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Oh boy, every team finishing 8-8. The NCAA might not be good, but it is very well supported. BiggerBoat posted:
The gently caress is this poo poo? Chilichimp fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 20:12
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Schwack posted:QB and oline play seem to be in some trouble.
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Sep 20, 2016 21:05
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I have it on good authority that quarterbacks aren't always the best, rather, it's a team effort.
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Sep 20, 2016 21:11
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Chilichimp posted:
Why? Does Matt Ryan suck? Or did I rate him too low for you? So far I've been called out on Ryan and Carson Palmer, neither of which invalidates my argument, btw, and their lifetime stats seem to generally bear out my rankings. If we want to argue the difference between a "B" and an "A", I suppose we could but I'm not sure how it effects the overall point I made, which is that there's not really a "quarterback competency crisis" in the NFL at all. Carson Palmer and Matt Ryan are both perfectly good, solid NFL QB's, neither of which I think are going to the Hall of Fame or anything
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Sep 21, 2016 20:58
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Magicpants posted:Rodgers the homosexuality I love my awesome gay quarterback!
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Sep 21, 2016 22:13
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BiggerBoat posted:Why? Does Matt Ryan suck? Or did I rate him too low for you? So far I've been called out on Ryan and Carson Palmer, neither of which invalidates my argument, btw, and their lifetime stats seem to generally bear out my rankings. Putting Rivers and Romo with Luck, Ryan, Stafford, and Flacco is kinda funny
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Sep 21, 2016 22:24
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russell wilson in that top tier lmao
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Sep 21, 2016 22:25
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Bacon Taco posted:I love my awesome gay quarterback! QB gay, so what
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Sep 21, 2016 22:27
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Ross Angeles posted:Putting Rivers and Romo with Luck, Ryan, Stafford, and Flacco is kinda funny I agree, putting ringless losers on the same level as Playoff Super Saiyan Joe "Elite" Flacco is an outright travesty.
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Sep 21, 2016 22:38
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Philip Rivers would be a slam dunk hall of famer if the organization he played for hadn't been incompetent at assembling a team around him since 2010-ish. Probably before that if you wanna be cagey about it.
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Sep 21, 2016 22:54
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Rivers has been a top 5 QB for over a decade, and I'd rather my team face any other QB except him
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Sep 21, 2016 22:56
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a decade? try eight years. not even close. practically several years. basically five years which is barely more than two. Phil rivers has been a top five quarterback in the national football league for three weeks
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Sep 21, 2016 23:25
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Best QB season wasted on a fuckface organization? code:
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Sep 22, 2016 01:41
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sean10mm posted:Best QB season wasted on a fuckface organization? 2010 Rivers is near identical to that. Truly Rivers and Romo are linked
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Sep 22, 2016 01:52
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sean10mm posted:Best QB season wasted on a fuckface organization? Because of this (from wiki): quote:Tony Romo accounted for 32 of the 39 total touchdowns the Cowboys scored in the 2011 NFL season (DeMarco Murray had two touchdowns while Felix Jones, Jon Kitna, Phillip Tanner, Stephen McGee and defensive back Terrence Newman each had one). Romo contributed to 82% of the team's total touchdowns for 2011, no other player in the 2011 regular season contributed a higher percentage of team touchdowns (Cam Newton: 72.9%, Matthew Stafford: 71.9%, Drew Brees: 71.2%, Tom Brady: 68.8%, Aaron Rodgers: 68.5% and Eli Manning: 63.8%). Honestly that kind of blows my mind.
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Sep 22, 2016 02:05
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sean10mm posted:Best QB season wasted on a fuckface organization? code:
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Sep 22, 2016 02:22
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