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Lutha Mahtin
Oct 10, 2010

Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!

such teacher. very miracle. wow.

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stereobreadsticks
Feb 28, 2008
I've been lurking in the old thread for a while now and thought I'd say hi now that it's all fresh and new. I'm not at all religious, my Dad was theoretically Evangelical but never went to church and didn't care much one way or the other and my Mom is a very lapsed Catholic so I didn't have religion inculcated on me as a child, but since college I've been interested in religion in terms of aesthetics, narratives, and rituals. A couple years ago I read an anthropological study of Haitian Vodun, followed immediately by an abridged edition of the Golden Legend and I've been really interested in syncretism and folk Catholicism/Orthodoxy, as well as more official theological arguments ever since. The legends, mythology, and symbolism really appeal to me and I like the way that to various degrees both the traditions of the average people and the official Church authorities have created a really rich, interesting, and above all varied set of beliefs despite the monotheistic framework they're working in.

At any rate, I'm unlikely to actually join a church or adopt a theistic (especially not a monotheistic) outlook on the world but I'll be following the thread and I'll definitely jump in if anyone wants to talk about the lives of the Saints or related topics. Forgive my ignorance in those cases, as I said, I never had an actual religious education, I'm just an interested outsider.

Tias
May 25, 2008

Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

stereobreadsticks posted:

I've been lurking in the old thread for a while now and thought I'd say hi now that it's all fresh and new. I'm not at all religious, my Dad was theoretically Evangelical but never went to church and didn't care much one way or the other and my Mom is a very lapsed Catholic so I didn't have religion inculcated on me as a child, but since college I've been interested in religion in terms of aesthetics, narratives, and rituals. A couple years ago I read an anthropological study of Haitian Vodun, followed immediately by an abridged edition of the Golden Legend and I've been really interested in syncretism and folk Catholicism/Orthodoxy, as well as more official theological arguments ever since. The legends, mythology, and symbolism really appeal to me and I like the way that to various degrees both the traditions of the average people and the official Church authorities have created a really rich, interesting, and above all varied set of beliefs despite the monotheistic framework they're working in.

At any rate, I'm unlikely to actually join a church or adopt a theistic (especially not a monotheistic) outlook on the world but I'll be following the thread and I'll definitely jump in if anyone wants to talk about the lives of the Saints or related topics. Forgive my ignorance in those cases, as I said, I never had an actual religious education, I'm just an interested outsider.

Sup syncretic buddy! I'm into folk christianity and paganism at the same time. A lot of peoples through the time either disregarded the second commandment, or didn't think including their own faiths in it was breaking the stricture.

In my case (Denmark), people didn't stop worshipping their old gods for several hundreds years after their christianization, and I doubt I have to, if both faiths call to me.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!
Some of the more nationalist minded/metalheaded or whatever folks sometimes rumble about forced Christianization of Lithuania, even though it brought literacy and stuff to Lithuanian (first book in Lithuanian is a Catechism), helping Lithuanian-ness not slip into irrelevancy too soon.

The Poles knew what they were doing when they got baptized in the 900s. Inb4 Baltic Crusades, fuckers!

Bel_Canto
Apr 23, 2007

"Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo."

JcDent posted:

Some of the more nationalist minded/metalheaded or whatever folks sometimes rumble about forced Christianization of Lithuania, even though it brought literacy and stuff to Lithuanian (first book in Lithuanian is a Catechism), helping Lithuanian-ness not slip into irrelevancy too soon.

The Poles knew what they were doing when they got baptized in the 900s. Inb4 Baltic Crusades, fuckers!

although that did help cement the Poles' status as "too slavic for the west, too roman for the east" and the unfortunate military stomping ground of europe for several centuries

Tias
May 25, 2008

Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

JcDent posted:

Some of the more nationalist minded/metalheaded or whatever folks sometimes rumble about forced Christianization of Lithuania, even though it brought literacy and stuff to Lithuanian (first book in Lithuanian is a Catechism), helping Lithuanian-ness not slip into irrelevancy too soon.

The Poles knew what they were doing when they got baptized in the 900s. Inb4 Baltic Crusades, fuckers!

Yeah, fascist 'pagans' have a tendency to begrudge anything modern, sometimes conflating cause and effect - like fascists everywhere. I'd almost accept them co-opting paganism if it meant they would go back to dying of legionella and bubonic plague in pre-medieval huts.

Tias fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Sep 22, 2016

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Bel_Canto posted:

although that did help cement the Poles' status as "too slavic for the west, too roman for the east" and the unfortunate military stomping ground of europe for several centuries

Poland seems to be in the same unfortunate position as the Balkans and Israel: they're geographically sitting right in between historical military superpowers and so have become the place foreign armies go through to get to the people they actually care about fighting.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib
At the Great Monkey Year Teachings the head of my Buddhist lineage talked about the meaning of taking Refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. He made a point that taking Refuge doesn't mean worship as such, and more importantly that it doesn't have to be an exclusive relationship. He stated unequivocally that if you want to practice and worship and make offerings to your local or family deities you should do that, so long as you recognize that they are also samsaric beings and cannot give you ultimate happiness or liberation. Generally it's recognized as being similar to taking a knee to an earthly lord or king - you do what you gotta do as long as you realize that they can only benefit you in this world.

I don't see why the same can't be the case with Christianity. The OT largely discusses God as being the biggest and baddest god in the region, but it doesn't make claims at monotheism until much later. It's very clear that other cults and sects and religions also have powerful gods and their priests and sorcerers get results, it's just that the God of the Bible fucks their poo poo up by being more powerful.

So I don't see why one can't be a follower of Jesus and accept Jesus as their savior and redeemer and then simultaneously go "but yo, Freyr, I could really use a good harvest." I mean, some monotheists still acknowledge the existence of powerful spirits, nothing says powerful spirits need to be Christian.

That said, there are likely prohibitions here simply because God is supposed to take care of all that, which is why you need saints as intercessors - he's super busy taking care of everyone else, good to get an advocate.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Paramemetic posted:

At the Great Monkey Year Teachings the head of my Buddhist lineage talked about the meaning of taking Refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. He made a point that taking Refuge doesn't mean worship as such, and more importantly that it doesn't have to be an exclusive relationship. He stated unequivocally that if you want to practice and worship and make offerings to your local or family deities you should do that, so long as you recognize that they are also samsaric beings and cannot give you ultimate happiness or liberation. Generally it's recognized as being similar to taking a knee to an earthly lord or king - you do what you gotta do as long as you realize that they can only benefit you in this world.

I don't see why the same can't be the case with Christianity. The OT largely discusses God as being the biggest and baddest god in the region, but it doesn't make claims at monotheism until much later. It's very clear that other cults and sects and religions also have powerful gods and their priests and sorcerers get results, it's just that the God of the Bible fucks their poo poo up by being more powerful.

So I don't see why one can't be a follower of Jesus and accept Jesus as their savior and redeemer and then simultaneously go "but yo, Freyr, I could really use a good harvest." I mean, some monotheists still acknowledge the existence of powerful spirits, nothing says powerful spirits need to be Christian.

That said, there are likely prohibitions here simply because God is supposed to take care of all that, which is why you need saints as intercessors - he's super busy taking care of everyone else, good to get an advocate.

In the Evangelical view, questions of monotheism come down to a view of monolatrism - that there may very well be other gods, but God is a singular (well, triune if you want to get into the Holy Trinity) being above all others. The Evangelical view says that while other gods may exist, praying to them is a betrayal of your commitment to God. Incidentally, this same view is part of why Evangelical theology tends to frown on the concept of saints as intercessors - how could God be so busy he would need an advocate? God is above such petty limitations.

Tias
May 25, 2008

Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Cythereal posted:

In the Evangelical view, questions of monotheism come down to a view of monolatrism - that there may very well be other gods, but God is a singular (well, triune if you want to get into the Holy Trinity) being above all others. The Evangelical view says that while other gods may exist, praying to them is a betrayal of your commitment to God. Incidentally, this same view is part of why Evangelical theology tends to frown on the concept of saints as intercessors - how could God be so busy he would need an advocate? God is above such petty limitations.

This is, essentially, why organized christianity isn't for me. Not content to accept my father in the sky as the only godlike intelligence, I also cannot place him above( or below) mother earth. Both things must be, and be equal, for the universe to be in harmony.

Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo
You know honestly having tried to be jodo shinshu and catholic I gotta say, sometimes religions just don't want to work well together. Still multiple religious belonging is a cool and good thing whether it's a cultural or individual phenomenon

Tias
May 25, 2008

Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Mo Tzu posted:

You know honestly having tried to be jodo shinshu and catholic I gotta say, sometimes religions just don't want to work well together. Still multiple religious belonging is a cool and good thing whether it's a cultural or individual phenomenon

I wholeheartedly agree. Being syncretic means finding out your personal truth, doctrinal impossibilities be damned. This was never a problem for us pagans, but I can imagine it must be an absolute shitshow if you start from dogmatic liturgigal christianity.

Arsenic Lupin
Apr 12, 2012

This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.


JcDent posted:

Some of the more nationalist minded/metalheaded or whatever folks sometimes rumble about forced Christianization of Lithuania, even though it brought literacy and stuff to Lithuanian (first book in Lithuanian is a Catechism),
This is true for a *lot* of languages -- not just because missionaries wanted it, although that's often the case, but because if you're gonna do books you start with the Most Important Book first. One of (I forget if it's the) oldest surviving pieces in Old English is Caedmon's Hymn, written in the 8th century.

If you want to do less-known Christian music, the eerie, dissonant music of Renaissance prince, composer, and murderer Carlo Gesualdo is astonishing. Check out the Hilliard Ensemble recording of Tenebrae, the service for Good Friday. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0HksZpmuiY

Worthleast
Nov 25, 2012

Possibly the only speedboat jumps I've planned

Tias posted:

I wholeheartedly agree. Being syncretic means finding out your personal truth, doctrinal impossibilities be damned. This was never a problem for us pagans, but I can imagine it must be an absolute shitshow if you start from dogmatic liturgigal christianity.

And this summarizes my problems with Ecumenism.

Give us this day our daily music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOwRW8ee4S8

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Tias posted:

I wholeheartedly agree. Being syncretic means finding out your personal truth, doctrinal impossibilities be damned. This was never a problem for us pagans, but I can imagine it must be an absolute shitshow if you start from dogmatic liturgigal christianity.

Personally, when I seriously explored other belief systems, the spiritual belief that appealed most to me was deism, believing that God or something like Him does exist but doesn't care for individual human lives. Why would such a being care about me, or any of us? To creation's grand watchmaker, we must be no more significant than grains of sand on a beach.

Ultimately, I decided I couldn't accept that view and stay emotionally healthy. I grew up in a Southern Baptist home and family, but I only really started to understand and engage with religion as more than rote ritual and knowing the things I was supposed to say when I went through some hard times in my life. Coming to engage with and truly believe in an all-powerful god of mercy, grace, and love is what drew me back from those dark places.

I personally find it comforting that my personal truth about what I believe may not measure up to who God really is and what He wants. I think I'd be disappointed if God was something human beings could readily understand, and I find it comforting that there are questions I don't know the answers to - and even questions I don't want to know the answers to.

I can't condemn anyone for seeking the truth in a way that brings them peace. I have no doubt that if I'd been raised in a home that followed a religion other than Christianity or no religion at all that I'd probably be very partial to that belief system as well. Jesus himself said to work out your own salvation in fear and trembling, and don't worry so much about what other people believe - and especially don't presume to know whether someone is damned or saved (hi, Calvinists!).

Arsenic Lupin
Apr 12, 2012

This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.


Cythereal posted:

I personally find it comforting that my personal truth about what I believe may not measure up to who God really is and what He wants. I think I'd be disappointed if God was something human beings could readily understand, and I find it comforting that there are questions I don't know the answers to - and even questions I don't want to know the answers to.
This sums up my feelings exactly, together with the comfort. If I could know God completely, that would limit Them (used as gender-neutral pronoun, not as theological statement), and They are greater and more complicated than I can comprehend. Kinda like :cthulhu:. (ducks, runs)

Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo

Worthleast posted:

And this summarizes my problems with Ecumenism.

Give us this day our daily music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOwRW8ee4S8

That people examine for themselves what is or isn't true instead of assenting wholeheartedly to a set of doctrines?

Cause I got some unfortunate news for you; that's most people

Wait you said ecumenism not syncretism, how does that apply to ecumenism?

Tias
May 25, 2008

Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Cythereal posted:

Ultimately, I decided I couldn't accept that view and stay emotionally healthy.

This is the alpha and omega for me. Why believe in anything, if it does not do you any good? If the desire to be intellectually right surpasses the need to engage with a loving, helpful God, then ones priorities are screwed up.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib

Tias posted:

I wholeheartedly agree. Being syncretic means finding out your personal truth, doctrinal impossibilities be damned. This was never a problem for us pagans, but I can imagine it must be an absolute shitshow if you start from dogmatic liturgigal christianity.

When it goes the other way, at least for me, it goes "okay, so God exists and is dope, but when God works with humans a lot of times he uses such as the Metatron or the angels. . . if there are other intelligences that do specific things, then they are surely subservient to God as well. If they are also subservient to God then there can be no sin in asking their help with the thing which they specifically rule over." And then you end up basically with Hermeticism and Rennaissance ceremonial magic that plays a dangerous game of testing how far they can go without the Church having them killed for heresy. Right up until you get Rosicrucianism with the end of the Church's ability to straight up kill heretics.

That's basically the trajectory I went as a child. I had some weird experiences that prompted me to write to my favorite priest growing up, who, at the time, was in Rome as a Judicial Vicar. The question and his answer in some edited form still exists on the website of the diocese at which he is now a Monseigneur.

quote:

Question:
I want to know about the beliefs of telepathy in the world today.

Answer:
While I cannot comment on other world religions and their doctrine regarding telepathy and other forms of extrasensory perception, nor the doctrine of other Christian denominations, I will be happy to say a few words based on Roman Catholic doctrine, based primarily on theological anthropology (that is, our understanding of human nature and humanity in light of humanity's creation by God).

The Church teaches that God created human beings with a specific human nature, having capacities and capabilities common to or at least possible for all human beings. These are natural gifts: reason, self-reflection, etc. Human beings also have, by the promise of God the Father and through the incarnation of Jesus Christ, the ability to receive supernatural gifts; that is, gifts beyond or entirely above human nature. Among these supernatural gifts are grace, eternal life, etc.

There are also, preternatural gifts; that is, gifts which are outside of general human nature but available to some human beings and running parallel to human nature. For example, extrasensory perception (gaining knowledge - but not Divine revelation - by a means other than by use of the five senses), telekinesis (the ability to move objects by mental power rather than physical power), various forms of empathetic influence, telepathy (the ability to sense the emotions or thoughts of those around one, based not on sensory observation but direct mental perception), in addition to gifts which amplify normal human gifts such as supra-agility, supra-sensitivity, etc. These gifts are given to individual human beings but not as a direct result of their human nature. Their purpose is not clearly known, though it is apparent that these gifts do in fact exist among human beings.

When it comes to these gifts, the possessor should use them in accord with the same rules of morality that all person most use. They cannot and should not be used to harm another or to harm one's self. Rather, they should be used to improve one's self or to help others or to praise God Almighty. The gifts ought to be used in accord with the Ten Commandments. And, they should never be used to violate the privacy of another person or to negatively effect them.

Very Rev. Kevin Michael Quirk, JCD
Judicial Vicar

He confided to me personally about an experience he had in Rome where he was asked to investigate a potential possession. A mother was very concerned about her daughter moving things around the room by demonic influence. Upon investigation, he concluded that this was some case of psychokinesis, a preternatural ability, rather than one of demonic influence.

Anyhow, all that is to just show that it is an easy lateral shift out of mainstream Catholicism and into the Western Esoteric Tradition if one has the right first steps - and in fact it's possible to stay in harmony with the Church if one does so carefully, using only Christian sources. If you look for example in the Kybalion or the various Hermetic texts you see a lot of discussion of planetary magic and so on, how the various intelligences rule the various planets and plants and so on, how they prefer certain substances, talismans, and signs, and so on - and how all of that is in accordance with God's divine creation and plan.

That said, I would see that being much more difficult for someone coming from an Evangelical tradition. I think it comes down to the loss of the body of Reason from the Evangelical corpus. Once you go sola scriptura you lose a vast philosophical tradition that leaves you unable to consider or approach anything outside of your narrow framework. An Evangelical cannot approach it because they look at the Witch of Endor and go "see God hates magic" and they cannot even consider the story of St. Cyprian the Magician or so on.

But yeah, once you move that direction and end up in the Western Esoteric Tradition sometimes you end up becoming a Buddhist instead, so you know, maybe it's dangerous to the faith after all. :v:

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib

Cythereal posted:

I can't condemn anyone for seeking the truth in a way that brings them peace. I have no doubt that if I'd been raised in a home that followed a religion other than Christianity or no religion at all that I'd probably be very partial to that belief system as well. Jesus himself said to work out your own salvation in fear and trembling, and don't worry so much about what other people believe - and especially don't presume to know whether someone is damned or saved (hi, Calvinists!).

That's the thing for me too. If your religion leads to your feeling at peace, happy, contented, and acting as a moral person, then that is the best possible religion for you and you should do it as much or as little as you need. If your religion leads to your feeling disturbed, upset, saddened, suffering, or acting as an immoral person, then maybe consider something else. There are loads of options!

Then people get afraid, because they have been taught that they might be punished for lack of faith or disloyalty to their god or religion, and to them I always refer them to the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius:

quote:

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

To me, if God is a jealous God such that he can't brook an unhappy person looking for happiness, or finding it somewhere else, then God is exceedingly disappointing, flawed for lack of compassion and unworthy of my worship. It comes down to that whole "is Gandhi in heaven?" thing, and well, if he's not, then he shouldn't want to be.

Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo

Tias posted:

I wholeheartedly agree. Being syncretic means finding out your personal truth, doctrinal impossibilities be damned. This was never a problem for us pagans, but I can imagine it must be an absolute shitshow if you start from dogmatic liturgigal christianity.

It's rough to take two religions that each say "only through (x) can you achieve (y)" where x can be "ecclesia" and y is "salum" or "Amida" "buddhahood" and attempt to practice both

My attempt to reconcile these was based on the fact that salvation and buddhahood are different solutions to different problems. Salvation is necessary for escaping sin or however you would summarize it in a sentence fragment, while buddhahood solves the issue of samsara. Either humanity is gripped with the sin of Adam and needs to be redeemed through Christ, or humanity is part of the structure of rebirth governed by karma and in order to escape that cycle it's necessary to attain enlightenment (which can only occur through an experience of Shinjin, which is the simultaneous realization that one should fall into hell, and recognizing that through Amida you are reborn in the pure land). Since these are mutually exclusive it is possible to believe both, because both religions solve mutually exclusive problems

Then I rea I was just scared to finish ripping off the bandage of leading Catholicism and just converted wholeheartedly without trying to be both

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Bel_Canto posted:

although that did help cement the Poles' status as "too slavic for the west, too roman for the east" and the unfortunate military stomping ground of europe for several centuries
in the period i study, they did the stomping

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib

Mo Tzu posted:

(which can only occur through an experience of Shinjin, which is the simultaneous realization that one should fall into hell, and recognizing that through Amida you are reborn in the pure land).

Man pure land really is the most Catholic of Buddhisms. I thought it was Tibetan Buddhism because we're all about bells and music and fabulous robes* but this kind of "welp I'm definitely poo poo but maybe if I feel guilty enough someone will be merciful" perspective is Catholic as gently caress.





*

Arsenic Lupin
Apr 12, 2012

This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.


Paramemetic posted:

Man pure land really is the most Catholic of Buddhisms. I thought it was Tibetan Buddhism because we're all about bells and music and fabulous robes* but this kind of "welp I'm definitely poo poo but maybe if I feel guilty enough someone will be merciful" perspective is Catholic as gently caress.





*


Excellent hats, and therefore always relevant to this thread.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib

Arsenic Lupin posted:

Excellent hats, and therefore always relevant to this thread.

What about ICONS/?







(I will stop now, I realized tho that I haven't posted any of this stuff in the appropriate thread yet so I'll update that later today)

Worthleast
Nov 25, 2012

Possibly the only speedboat jumps I've planned

Mo Tzu posted:

Since these are mutually exclusive it is possible to believe both, because both religions solve mutually exclusive problems

This sheds some light on what I mean. False ecumenism says they are not mutually exclusive, but the same, and ignore any possible contradiction. True ecumenism (like this thread) says truth is true and then argues and defends it in charity.

System Metternich
Feb 28, 2010

But what did he mean by that?

Arsenic Lupin posted:

Excellent hats, and therefore always relevant to this thread.

And just like that I found a great collection of excellent religious hats on Pinterest (I get the feeling that whoever's running this collection isn't a great fan of religion, but eh)


Imam Sheikh Sa’ad Musse Roble at a White House summit last year


You all know who that is :v:


Navajo mask dancer, 1904


A Shinto priest


An Evenks (an ethnic group living mostly in Siberia and northern China) shaman's headgear, late 19th century


Josyf Cardinal Slipyj (1893-1984), Archbishop of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church wearing the cardinal's galero


The Dalai Lama wearing a ceremonial hat


"The Rignga Uesham Hat is worn by the head monk when performing Jingsey, a special type of puja ritual ceremony in order to purify the place, drive out the evil spirits and to bring peace and happiness to the living family." (from the always excellent Philippi Collection


Sadly women seem to be underrepresented in all major religions concerning both priestly offices and blinged-out headgear

Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo

Paramemetic posted:

Man pure land really is the most Catholic of Buddhisms. I thought it was Tibetan Buddhism because we're all about bells and music and fabulous robes* but this kind of "welp I'm definitely poo poo but maybe if I feel guilty enough someone will be merciful" perspective is Catholic as gently caress.





*


Actually shinshu is Protestant because we don't acknowledge works. Jodo shu, which says the path of sages is valid and ergo has works and faith, is Catholic

Senju Kannon
Apr 9, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo

Worthleast posted:

This sheds some light on what I mean. False ecumenism says they are not mutually exclusive, but the same, and ignore any possible contradiction. True ecumenism (like this thread) says truth is true and then argues and defends it in charity.

Some people just don't like to live in existential tension

Like me

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Paramemetic posted:

That's the thing for me too. If your religion leads to your feeling at peace, happy, contented, and acting as a moral person, then that is the best possible religion for you and you should do it as much or as little as you need. If your religion leads to your feeling disturbed, upset, saddened, suffering, or acting as an immoral person, then maybe consider something else. There are loads of options!

If my beliefs can make me happy or make me moral, but not both, which matters more?

Shaddak
Nov 13, 2011

WilliamAnderson posted:

I recently went to a party of a family of Christian Scientists. We had a long discussion about theology and church structure, as a former Catholic it was fascinating, but also incredibly strange. The notion of the idea that the miracles of Jesus were actually a "science" is certainly out there. What do you think about their reluctance to trust doctors?

I think it's a bad idea. I mean, sure, the human mind can influence the body in ways we don't always realize. No amount of perfect understanding, though, makes a tumor go away. That's really only a big thing with the more devout ones. My mom wouldn't take me to the doctor for anything minor but, if I had a fever of 103 and I was vomiting, yeah we'd gof to the doctor.

I think the whole idea behind the sect was to take some of the beliefs of primitive Christianity and, reframe them in scientific terms. What I obviously didn't realize as a kid was the beliefs are actually kind of Matrixy. The idea that physical world is an illusion and, when you know the truth, you can accomplish anything.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Shaddak posted:

I think the whole idea behind the sect was to take some of the beliefs of primitive Christianity and, reframe them in scientific terms. What I obviously didn't realize as a kid was the beliefs are actually kind of Matrixy. The idea that physical world is an illusion and, when you know the truth, you can accomplish anything.

The Matrix (especially the first movie) is almost explicitly Gnostic -- the material world is a prison and its very existence is the result of a horrifying cosmic error that separated the divine spark in man from its source. (And Christ / Neo's purpose is to come into the material world and retrieve it, not through faith so much as by knowledge -- hence the emphasis on knowing the truth.)

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Sep 21, 2016

Smoking Crow
Feb 14, 2012

*laughs at u*

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The Matrix (especially the first movie) is almost explicitly Gnostic -- the material world is a prison and its very existence is the result of a horrifying cosmic error that separated the divine spark in man from its source.

it created a bunch of neo-gnostics

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

If my beliefs can make me happy or make me moral, but not both, which matters more?

Trick question, the path to true and enduring happiness comes through being moral, whereas being immoral can only give transient pleasure that is ultimately unfulfilling and only creates more misery.

Shaddak
Nov 13, 2011

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The Matrix (especially the first movie) is almost explicitly Gnostic -- the material world is a prison and its very existence is the result of a horrifying cosmic error that separated the divine spark in man from its source. (And Christ / Neo's purpose is to come into the material world and retrieve it, not through faith so much as by knowledge -- hence the emphasis on knowing the truth.)

As I've read more about Gnostic Christianity, I've realized that Christian Science borrowed alot of it's ideas. The major difference being that instead of an evil god creating the physical world as a prison, it's an illusion created by an error in our understanding of our true relationship with God. Christian Science is big on the concept of error.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Paramemetic posted:

Trick question, the path to true and enduring happiness comes through being moral, whereas being immoral can only give transient pleasure that is ultimately unfulfilling and only creates more misery.

It's only a trick question if you already subscribe to that belief, and we're talking about choice of belief, here. :v:

It seems patently obvious to me that being a moral person, at least in this world, is a path of thorns. The world isn't made for us, so ensuring the well-being of human beings means coming into conflict with the world -- a conflict that does not favor us in the long term. If you underestimate the world in order to maintain your own happiness, you'll waste your efforts fighting things that can't be fought, or assume victories you haven't actually achieved.

Shaddak posted:

As I've read more about Gnostic Christianity, I've realized that Christian Science borrowed alot of it's ideas. The major difference being that instead of an evil god creating the physical world as a prison, it's an illusion created by an error in our understanding of our true relationship with God. Christian Science is big on the concept of error.

Most Gnostic traditions are pretty big on error to begin with. The Demiurge doesn't create maliciously -- it's an arrogant, prideful creature that sincerely believes itself to be God.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Sep 21, 2016

Worthleast
Nov 25, 2012

Possibly the only speedboat jumps I've planned

Edit: You know what, what was posted here takes more away from this thread than adds to it. Somebody give me a penance.

Worthleast fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Sep 21, 2016

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME
divorce and left wing economic policy, how terrible

Smoking Crow
Feb 14, 2012

*laughs at u*

HEY GAL posted:

divorce and left wing economic policy, how terrible

I see funny cash and immediately think Company scrip

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Broken Mind
Jan 27, 2009

Thanks a lot, this was pretty much exactly what I was looking for.

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