|
PerrineClostermann posted:You seem to have accidentally posted someone other than Sayaka Yes, Sayaka has the best costume by far. I like her cape. I was watching some of the original series again recently, and it's really remarkable how good it is. There's nothing particularly outstanding or unique about the story/characters themselves, but it's executed almost flawlessly. Even though Rebellion is still really good and I'm curious to see where the story-line goes, I think that I generally prefer the more optimistic ending of the original series (and first two movies) because it wraps everything up nicely and makes sense within the context of the story. I've seen people argue about Madoka's wish not being ideal, but it's actually the most reasonable one I can think of when you consider the facts that 1. it was necessary that her wish prevented witches, because otherwise she'd transform and wreck the world and 2. Madoka believes magical girls are fundamentally good* (so she won't make a wish that just eliminates the concept of magical girls). The reason why she has the power to make such a wish also makes sense within the context of the story. I mention this mainly because I've seen a lot of people online saying "WHY DIDN'T MADOKA JUST WISH FOR _____?!?!" and they're usually not understanding something important (the most common thing I see is people forgetting the fact that any wish that doesn't prevent wishes will result in Kriemhild Gretchen). *And also possibly necessary for human civilization, if Kyubey is to be believed, though I never understand exactly how magical girls lead to science/technology/culture/etc. Maybe the Incubators specifically chose girls they knew would make wishes that ultimately lead to societal/technological advancement?
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 18:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 17:28 |
|
|
I think the idea is that the wishes helped them do things they didn't know how to do at first. It's easier to create or recreate something once you have control of it. If a girl wished she could make fire, suddenly, you would have easy access to fire. Stuff like that. also I never get tired of this dumb 4koma 
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 21:20
|
|
|
"I wish there were some easier way to mass produce texts" And thus magical girls created the printing press.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 23:54
|
|
|
There's only one true best girl: In regards to how Magical Girls played a role in human history, we don't really have much conclusive evidence, and the Incubators didn't really tell us anything:  Kyuubey: "We have been involved with your civilization since before you recorded history. Countless girls throughout history have formed contracts with Incubators, had their wishes granted, and ultimately succumbed to despair. That which begins with a prayer of hope ends with a curse of despair. Such is the cycle that countless magical girls have repeated to this day. Some changed history forever, and elevated your society to new stages of development... It can't be denied that their sacrifices shaped human history. The current standard of living you enjoy was made possible by all those tears shed in the past." Madoka: 'If none of you had come to our planet..." Kyuubey: "You'd probably be still living in caves." While this sounds like Magical Girls were necessary for civilization to exist the way it does, the Incubators are playing around with their words merely to assert that this assumption is true, while not directly stating that it actually is. Yes, "Magical Girls" were involved at various stages of human history, but here's a key point to consider: what effect, if any, did the role of Magic play in these developments? Those women who were involved with shaping history: did they change history because of magic, or for some other reason? The fact that the Incubators are very careful to play up the role of influential women who were Magical Girls, while edging around Magic's role in history itself, is very suspicious to me. Notice how the effects of wishes are never once mentioned or described on a broader societal level, any effect they had is purely assumption. The changes to history were created by actions of Magical Girls, or girls who had already made wishes. Furthermore, we know the Incubators never lie, and will use the truth when convenient to them. Consider their motivation in this scene: they want Madoka to make a wish and generate energy, and are trying to trap her into a no-win situation. What better method than getting her to believe that the Incubators and Magical Girls are necessary for human civilization? But if this is the case, and they know it to be true, thus the "history lesson", why couch it in the terms they do? Why not "You'd still be living in caves", but instead "you'd probably be still living in caves". Why end with an assumption when a statement of fact will work just as well? The Incubators never lie, so... Would such a statement of fact be a lie? It seems to be that way, why would they say it otherwise? Which leaves us with two possibilities. Either 1, the Incubators don't actually know if Magic is necessary for human civilization, in which case they're an unreliable narrator and their "history lesson" isn't objective truth, or 2, they do know the role Magic has played, and it wasn't actually necessary for human civilization! In addition to this, we can catch the Incubators in their own manipulation. Earlier in episode 11, we have a scene with the Incubators and Homura, in which this is said:  Kyuubey: "You see, a magical girl's latent potential is based on the weight of the karmic destiny she bears. I could have understood if she had been the queen or saviour of a country, but I couldn't comprehend why Kaname Madoka, who led only an ordinary life, should have so many threads of fate woven so tightly around her." (emphasis mine) Karmic destiny seems to exist outside of the Magical Girl system, and the magical power of the girl making a wish is dependent on her role in history. But wait: if this is true, then wouldn't those women have already or are in a position to shape history? What role does Magic play here, if any? Their "karmic destiny" exists outside of that system, so, it would follow that their effect on history would happen regardless. If this is the case, then the "history lesson" begins to make more sense in a way. The Incubators are referencing influential women with high karmic destinies as changing the world (they did) but leaves out the role Magic actually played (most likely, it's not nearly as important as the Incubators are implying). Finally, we can go one step further with a thought experiment. Let's assume for a second that Magical Girls are as important to civilization as the Incubators imply, with Magic being a central force. Why, then, does the world Madoka uses seem so similar to our own, to the point of being basically identical? Magical Girls are girls who have been granted incredible power; they can fight better than 300 humans at once (if Tart Magica is to be believed, which had 3 Magical Girls completely destroying a regiment of 1000 French troops, and did so effortlessly on their part), have general magic powers to do all kinds of things, (Homura's fight against Walpurgisnacht comes to mind), and given the latent control they have over their bodies, are effectively immortal if supplied with Grief Seeds. Yet, given all that, Magical Girls had only a limited role in history, in that Madoka still seems to be running on our male dominated patriarchal system. Why did these effective gods among women not conquer humanity and lead to a matriarchal society with Magical Girls being conferred elite status, especially since Magical Girls seem to have existed since pre-history? Why is there no nigh-immortal Magical Girl supreme leaders who control other Magical Girls to supply them with Grief Seeds? Why do Magical Girls hide in modern times, and not rule the world in its entirety? Given this, we're left with the idea, that, no, Magical Girls are not necessary for civilization, and aren't even that important in the grand scheme of things. It seems likely the Incubators know this to some degree as well, which then creates the situation with their "history lesson". Ytlaya posted:*And also possibly necessary for human civilization, if Kyubey is to be believed, though I never understand exactly how magical girls lead to science/technology/culture/etc. Maybe the Incubators specifically chose girls they knew would make wishes that ultimately lead to societal/technological advancement? You're assuming that the Incubators are benevolent or care about human civilization or the species in general. They don't:  Kyuubey: "In this form, I imagine it will only take her around ten days to destroy the entire planet. Oh, well. What happens next is mankind's problem, not ours. We've pretty much met our energy quota at this point." They only care about their energy, nothing else matters. Humans can be wiped out in the process and they're perfectly ok with that. They aren't the mindful farmers they portray themselves to be to Madoka, they're hunters who bait a trap with something tempting and will destroy whatever gets in their way or is no longer useful to them. This is why Madoka's attempt at reaching an accord with them in the new universe ultimately failed. They were never going to cooperate given a choice, and Homura's solution was pretty much the only way to get them to stop and save humanity from being destroyed. In regards to the ending, I still rather strenuously disagree, and even moreso than I have in the past. At this point, I consider the original ending of Madoka to be incredibly weak narratively, and it only makes sense in the larger context of Rebellion and the next project. A big problem I've found is that Madoka's solution within the narrative rather neatly ignores the vast majority of the series itself. Her wish and her thinking is focused only on the idea of "witches = bad", and shows that her thinking hasn't progressed since the early part of the show. Witches are bad and need to be removed. Ok, fine, and that's reasonable in context, especially given that they'll destroy the world and that needs to be addressed, but what about the rest of the series? The series spent a very long time focusing on Sayaka's rise and fall. Sayaka represents what Madoka imagines Magical Girls to be, a warrior of justice and hope. But when faced with the reality of the system and her circumstances, Sayaka fails, falls into despair, and ultimately dies. This is what Magical Girls are, a method of destruction for troubled girls who are conned into a contract they don't understand with horrible, awful consequences. The creation of a witch is just the end-point of an entire existence of misery, and critically, Madoka does not address this at all. Much of the problems of Magical Girls exist in the new world, the contracts most likely aren't fully spelled out (what reason do the Incubators have for being honest about it, exactly?), they're still liches, and crucially, still die in a similar fashion. Not even the problem of despair and pollution of the Soul Gem is addressed, as while Sayaka dies in battle in the new world, Homura very plainly does not. In short, and as Rebellion and the Concept Movie shows, Madoka failed, and she failed precisely because of her love for the concept of Magical Girls without considering how they actually function. Madoka is so wrapped up in her own ideal of what a Magical Girl should be, she can't see them for what they actually are. Thus the solution, which Rebellion began with Homura's betrayal and destruction of Madoka's wish, what the Concept Movie continues, with its "Definition of Happiness", this new project will end with, hopefully: the rejection of Magic and Magical Girls for the idea of remaining human. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Dec 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2016 03:14
|
|
|
Lord Justice posted:You're assuming that the Incubators are benevolent or care about human civilization or the species in general. They don't: I agree with most of what you said in your post, but you could argue that it's in the Incubator's interest for the human population to increase (which requires improvements in technology, etc) since more people = more magical girls = more energy. edit: And this supposedly doesn't matter post-Madoka becoming a witch since that releases such an absurd amount of energy that there's no need for any magical girls on Earth beyond that point Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Dec 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2016 04:34
|
|
|
Lord Justice posted:Karmic destiny seems to exist outside of the Magical Girl system, and the magical power of the girl making a wish is dependent on her role in history. But wait: if this is true, then wouldn't those women have already or are in a position to shape history? What role does Magic play here, if any? Their "karmic destiny" exists outside of that system, so, it would follow that their effect on history would happen regardless. If this is the case, then the "history lesson" begins to make more sense in a way. The Incubators are referencing influential women with high karmic destinies as changing the world (they did) but leaves out the role Magic actually played (most likely, it's not nearly as important as the Incubators are implying). I think it's less about what they have and more about what they have to lose. The energy harvested comes from the net change from hope to despair, so losing one's entire kingdom, for instance, is one of the greater sources the Incubators could look for. Madoka dreaming about rolled-back events probably means she's got all of Homura's efforts until that point to reflect on as a witch, even if she's not aware of it beforehand. How that feeds back into the available power of her wish I haven't pinned down yet.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2016 19:17
|
|
|
It's like gravity potential energy. The deeper you can plunge, the more energy you've got stored in you 
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2016 19:22
|
|
|
Ranzear posted:I think it's less about what they have and more about what they have to lose. The energy harvested comes from the net change from hope to despair, so losing one's entire kingdom, for instance, is one of the greater sources the Incubators could look for. While an interesting idea, I'm not sure this bears out in practice. While you're probably right that losing something like a kingdom would generate more despair, karmic destiny itself seems to be unrelated to that. Keep in mind, karmic destiny doesn't just affect the power of the witch, it affects the power of the Magical Girl as well. The higher your karmic destiny, the more magical power you have. Madoka's karmic destiny is so insanely high because Homura has been effectively resetting the universe almost one hundred times in order to save her specifically, so the "threads of fate" are all focused on her. Karmic destiny seems to be tied to how you relate to the world/universe, and Homura has made Madoka into the sole focus of her repeated world. Thus it makes sense that she would have power to effectively rewrite the universe with her wish, as well as destroy the planet in her witch form. Ytlaya posted:I agree with most of what you said in your post, but you could argue that it's in the Incubator's interest for the human population to increase (which requires improvements in technology, etc) since more people = more magical girls = more energy. Ah, yeah, you're right about that. Of course, I'm not sure how much of human civilization existing was actually planned by the Incubators, and how much of it was a happy accident in their favour.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2016 19:51
|
|
|
Kyouko is actually the best girl. I'm an authority on the subject.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2016 21:50
|
|
|
Namtab posted:Kyouko is actually the best girl. I'm an authority on the subject. likely true
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2016 21:58
|
|
|
Namtab posted:Kyouko is actually the best girl. I'm an authority on the subject. a cartoon duck posted:likely true Literally the worst girl. Other than bebe
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2016 01:20
|
|
|
They're all good. X
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2016 01:49
|
|
|
Four days later I realize 'Kyubey' is literally short for 'Incubator'. Red oni is always best oni.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2016 07:19
|
|
|
Ranzear posted:Four days later I realize 'Kyubey' is literally short for 'Incubator'. It's explicitly said in the series you know. "Kyubey...no, inkyubeytor"
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2016 08:11
|
|
|
The kyu is for 'cute' - The Urobutcher, fooling no-one.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2016 13:03
|
|
|
PerrineClostermann posted:It's explicitly said in the series you know. "Kyubey...no, inkyubeytor" Also when Madoka goes "Now grant my wish, Incubator!" in the last episode. I like the way that line is delivered for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2016 18:43
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Also when Madoka goes "Now grant my wish, Incubator!" in the last episode. I like the way that line is delivered for some reason. I like everything in this series because I'm a Chuuni. Homura and Sayaka are my favorites.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2016 20:07
|
|
|
 X
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 00:13
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 01:15
|
|
|
Watched the Concept short, and then framed through it a bit to admire the art, and it kinda womboed with something Sayaka had going on in Rebellion and I really, really, hope it goes this direction: Witch forms are now Stands.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2016 05:51
|
|
|
Ranzear posted:Watched the Concept short, and then framed through it a bit to admire the art, and it kinda womboed with something Sayaka had going on in Rebellion and I really, really, hope it goes this direction: I put all the drawn images in an Imgur album if you want to look at them further, and had translations in this post of the Japanese that appears in some of them. I haven't watched Jojo and I have no intention to, but aren't they called "Stands" because they stand behind the person?: 
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2016 11:25
|
|
|
Ranzear posted:Watched the Concept short, and then framed through it a bit to admire the art, and it kinda womboed with something Sayaka had going on in Rebellion and I really, really, hope it goes this direction: I'm pretty sure Sayaka (and Homura now, too, I guess) are special cases since they both experienced their witch form and then were (or already were) shunted outside the law of cycles. Be able to project your witch form probably isn't something other random Magical Girls can do.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2016 16:14
|
|
|
Yes_Cantaloupe posted:They're all good. It's good that you didn't include Nagisa in your definition of "all"
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2016 16:22
|
|
|
AlternateNu posted:I'm pretty sure Sayaka (and Homura now, too, I guess) are special cases since they both experienced their witch form and then were (or already were) shunted outside the law of cycles. Be able to project your witch form probably isn't something other random Magical Girls can do. You'd think so. I imagine it's like being able to accept yourself that does it, like a persona. In any case, though, there were a lot of girls who turned into witches in the original timeline and I don't see why Sayaka would be especially different from them
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2016 17:52
|
|
|
PerrineClostermann posted:I don't see why Sayaka would be especially different from them uh, Nagisa and her are from the law of cycles, physically speaking. Mami and Kyouko are the same girls they've been since the wraith world was created.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2016 18:05
|
|
|
Space Flower posted:uh, Nagisa and her are from the law of cycles, physically speaking. Mami and Kyouko are the same girls they've been since the wraith world was created. I'm talking about the girls who already died. Madoka didn't save anyone from death, just witchhood. So like... What's her name from episode one, the vomit rose witch. Obviously Mami and Kyouko haven't succumbed to despair yet, but every witch they fought was a girl similar to Sayaka.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2016 18:11
|
|
|
Lord Justice posted:I put all the drawn images in an Imgur album if you want to look at them further, and had translations in this post of the Japanese that appears in some of them. I haven't watched Jojo and I have no intention to, but aren't they called "Stands" because they stand behind the person?: Watch jojoba and find out
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
The function of Magical Girl combined with Witch is a property of the Law of Cycles. The Witch forms aren't really separate from the person, the Sayaka and Nagisa we're seeing in Rebellion aren't just Sayaka and Nagisa, they're also Oktavia and Charlotte: "The mermaid witch. Once dreamt of love. This witch was cut loose once again from a part of the Law of Cycles. Unlike the witch of sweets, the human and witch's body can act independently. She can appear anywhere as long as there is water." "The mermaid witch. Once dreamt of love. The Law of the Cycle split off some of its souls and sent them to the earth. One of them took the form of sweets. Another took on the form of a mermaid. And the Law of Cycles itself descended upon the surface, more reverently than the morning dew. Her form was like that of a magical girl who once was." (From the Oktavia witch cards for Rebellion) Essentially, the Law of Cycles adjusts the fate of the Magical Girl such that they accept and merge with their Witch form, rather than being overwhelmed and destroyed by it. The two parts work in tandem as a complete being, although with different levels of independence. With that in mind, Homura is not part of this system, as she A, never went to the Law of Cycles and merged with Homulilly, and B, never actually turned into a Witch in the first place. The Homulilly in Rebellion is just another creation on Homura's part in her dream, not the actual Homulilly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2016 20:42
|
|
|
Lord Justice posted:B, never actually turned into a Witch in the first place. The Homulilly in Rebellion is just another creation on Homura's part in her dream, not the actual Homulilly. Uhhh, what? Where is that mentioned/hinted at?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2016 23:26
|
|
|
My fanfic
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 00:03
|
|
|
AlternateNu posted:Uhhh, what? Where is that mentioned/hinted at? It's not so much hinted at as a conclusion reached on available evidence. The Nutcracker Witch, unlike every other Witch we've seen, does several inexplicable things if we assume it's actually a Witch. -First, Homura's Soul Gem never breaks, and no Grief Seed appears. The Incubators' Isolation Field wouldn't stop that from happening, all it does is stop the Law of Cycles from interfering. In theory, if Homura had actually turned into a Witch, her Soul Gem would have become a Grief Seed. -Second, Homura is still conscious in this form, and is able to be drawn out of it. This is in direct contradiction to Sayaka's case in the series, and if Homulilly was real, Homura would have been gone and unable to be saved. -Third, the nature of the Labyrinth is unlike those of other Witches. it's much larger than other Labyrinths, creating an entire city within it, and those caught in it don't act like those actually caught by Witches. There's no Witch's Kiss, and in fact, everyone seems to have been captured by the Clara Dolls. As well, there is no attempt to kill those in the Labyrinth, merely keep them there. -Fourth, while we're told over and over that Homura is becoming a Witch, we're principally told this information from the Incubators. However, these Incubators' are not those of the series, whatever information they have on Witches is whatever Homura told them, and whatever they have managed to figure out on their own. They are no source of authority on the subject at this point. -Fifth, Homura's Soul Gem is not actually polluted by despair, but love, and always was. This leads to the creation of a Demon, and if we examine how Demons work with the ending of Rebellion as an example, then what happened earlier becomes clear. The Labyrinth within her Soul Gem wasn't the result of a Witch, but a Demon. It follows the rules as we know them, for the most part, such as the increased size of the Labyrinth, as well as what happens to people pulled into it. Edit: Sixth, the actual Homulilly isn't the Nutcracker Witch, but the Witch of Mortal World (Which should have shown up if she was actually transformed into a Witch): 
Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Dec 7, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 00:11
|
|
|
Lord Justice posted:but aren't they called "Stands" because they stand behind the person?: Sometimes they stand in front of the person. Sometimes they don't stand anywhere. Also, there are magical girl stands and even Kyubey stands that grant you wishes in Jojo so you should see it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 00:44
|
|
|
There's nothing saying the shape/name of a girls witch form is immutable. It could change based on the circumstances of their transformation. Since Homura's transformation occurred completely within her soul gem due to the isolation field, you can't say that it not breaking and/or producing a grief seed is evidence of it not being a true witch transformation. You also can't say that it is counter to Sayaka's example since the persons original consciousness might not be lost until the witch form escapes the confines of the soul gem. Lastly, I wrote off the size of labrynth as being a function of how powerful a magic girl she was. Madoka wasn't the only one who got a power multiplier from Homura's time looping. Basically, I don't think there is enough explained to follow your theory unless there is a bunch of supplemental poo poo I'm missing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 00:48
|
|
|
Madoka would have been better if she was a fat lazy nerd like Sailor Moon
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 01:03
|
|
|
a cartoon duck posted:Madoka would have been better if she was a fat lazy nerd like Sailor Moon Ah, Namtab posted:My fanfic
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 01:05
|
|
|
a cartoon duck posted:Madoka would have been better if she was a fat lazy nerd like Sailor Moon Ah, tumblr.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 01:11
|
|
|
PerrineClostermann posted:Ah, tumblr. it's incredibly canon, actually
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 01:13
|
|
|
AlternateNu posted:There's nothing saying the shape/name of a girls witch form is immutable. It could change based on the circumstances of their transformation. The issue here is having to make exceptions and new rules out of whole cloth based on unreliable information. The Nutcracker Witch is the only Witch who operates the way she does. What exactly about the Isolation Field is causing this sudden break in the rules? More to the point, why is the Isolation Field stopping her Soul Gem from breaking? That's not actually explained and is suspicious considering Homura is "raising a curse". Nothing about the Isolation Field should be stopping her Soul Gem from becoming a Grief Seed, since the point of it is to stop the Law of Cycles from interfering. Since this is the case, it should become a Grief Seed, considering what we know of Witches. The way I see it, to accept Homulilly as a Witch means to accept a lot of contradictory information that doesn't make sense given what we know of Witches. If this Homulilly is merely a creation of Homura's mind, and this Labyrinth a creation of her "proto-Demon" self, then it becomes consistent with the rules as we know them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 01:15
|
|
|
a cartoon duck posted:it's incredibly canon, actually Referring to some of the more horrendous tumblr redraws to make x series more "inclusive."  That girl may be lazy, but she ain't fat, and she has no idea how to use technology.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 01:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 17:28 |
|
|
she's a chubster in Naoko Takeuchi's imagination, which is the highest form of canon, over things like real existing manga and anime and various merchandise
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 01:19
|
|