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twodot posted:I don't agree that college degrees qualify people to do high quality jobs. Now maybe it turns out that capitalists value value-signifiers over money and they let job positions stay empty as they turn down people who would do that job for slightly less money because they think it's super important that their candidate have written essays on Beowulf, but that seems like an unstable equilibrium at best. That's cool, but why should we take your feelings about how things should work as evidence against college education for most people? You do understand that, right now, lack of a degree prevents a person from being considered for most jobs that pay more than $30K? If a person doesn't have a degree, they, more than likely, aren't making $15/hr. twodot posted:I happen to be a programmer that occasionally interviews programmers, and I routinely find people with CS degrees that can't write a line of code. Having a CS degree, generally, isn't a stamp of anything, and you're going to spend the next six months training your average worthwhile recent college grad anyways. There are certifications that are worth more than nothing, but "a four degree from an unspecified school, of an unspecified major, with unspecified grades" isn't one of them. What's the ratio of degree-holders to not that you've interviewed? I don't have a degree, would you interview me?
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Sep 29, 2016 00:35
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BirdOfPlay posted:That's cool, but why should we take your feelings about how things should work as evidence against college education for most people? You do understand that, right now, lack of a degree prevents a person from being considered for most jobs that pay more than $30K? If a person doesn't have a degree, they, more than likely, aren't making $15/hr. quote:What's the ratio of degree-holders to not that you've interviewed? I don't have a degree, would you interview me?
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Sep 29, 2016 00:47
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Certain degrees or certifications are 100% totally, absolutely, completely required for a ton of jobs. A whole long list of other jobs strongly prefer people with degrees. And people sometimes work in fields completely unrelated to what they studied in Undergrad. I remember talking to Philosophy minors who either wanted to be lawyers (God help them, but Philosophy is good for the LSAT) or taking logic intensive courses for CS majors. You are not necessarily married to your field as an undergrad.
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Sep 29, 2016 02:16
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Forceholy posted:And people sometimes work in fields completely unrelated to what they studied in Undergrad. I remember talking to Philosophy minors who either wanted to be lawyers (God help them, but Philosophy is good for the LSAT) or taking logic intensive courses for CS majors. You are not necessarily married to your field as an undergrad.
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Sep 29, 2016 02:23
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twodot posted:Probably four out of five had or were finishing CS degrees, all of them had or were finishing some four year degree. I'd happily interview people without one, but there's several layers of screens before I get involved. I work with very talented people who either never got a degree (drop outs and people who didn't even try) as well have degrees in unrelated areas (physics, philosophy, et cetera). The ultimate issue obviously is there is a shortage coders since we are still in the middle of a giant tech bubble. People can just pick up coding and make a good money but I think it is really short-sighted to think that will always be the case (especially since this already happened before). Let's say the tech bubble collapses, and suddenly there is a massive over-supply of coders...what is plan B for those people? If we are speaking anecdotally, I think education gives you more than a degree and connections, it simply helps you process information more efficiently. I know people that are actually quite bright but often fumble along in life because they can't see the larger puzzle. Education may not be a complete ticket to success, but it does matter. If you should take on a bunch of debt is another matter, but if anything the emphasis should be trying to find an affordable school not giving up because "school is for suckers." Also, I assume most people who emphasize trade/vocational schools don't seem to realize it is really tough to make living in most blue collar positions nowadays especially since manufacturing and unions nearly completely disappeared. There are still construction jobs, but they are extremely cyclical (like tech jobs oddly enough) and often aren't sustainable (it is pretty rough when you are in your 40-50s trying to pay bills with a bad back and no degree). Obviously people start their own companies and can make good money (or get into a union somehow) but it is the exception at this point. edit: As for JDs, it really depends on if you can get into a T14 school and/or have or can make connections. MAs really aren't worth it unless you can get them paid for. Funded PhDs are actually probably one of the better deals as far as graduate school goes, but you shouldn't do a PhD if you have to pay for it. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 02:36
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Forceholy posted:And people sometimes work in fields completely unrelated to what they studied in Undergrad. I remember talking to Philosophy minors who either wanted to be lawyers (God help them, but Philosophy is good for the LSAT) or taking logic intensive courses for CS majors. You are not necessarily married to your field as an undergrad. Yeah, but this is a pretty wasteful system though for education as job training. Ardennes posted:The ultimate issue obviously is there is a shortage coders since we are still in the middle of a giant tech bubble. People can just pick up coding and make a good money but I think it is really short-sighted to think that will always be the case (especially since this already happened before). Let's say the tech bubble collapses, and suddenly there is a massive over-supply of coders...what is plan B for those people? While we may be in a tech bubble, I'd be shocked if in the long run, computer programming would become a less important part of the economy. If anything, it would become even more important. There are also a lot of reasons why many people don't get into computer programming and why there won't be a massive oversupply of computer programmers. It isn't really a glamorous profession like being an artist, doctor, or lawyer, it is kind of boring and involves obsessing over minutia, your coworkers often aren't very well socially adjusted, and it involves being very systematic with your thinking and many people struggle with that.
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Sep 29, 2016 03:20
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Speaking as a recent PhD graduate, a lot of the anger directed at universities is poo poo pay for faculty relative to what they could get in industry or as virtually anything else. If you're applying for a faculty job you're probably close to 30+ years old considering you did 4-5+ years of PhD, maybe a master's and probably a couple years in post-doctoral internships. Faculty jobs are also increasingly rare since universities prefer to hire adjunct and other non-tenure faculty to teach rather than replacing their retiring professors. Yet starting salaries are $40-60k a year, which I'm not complaining all that much (it's a raise from grad school) but holy gently caress are professors paid poo poo salaries relative to their training. The larger problem is undergraduate costs, absolutely. But it's important to keep in mind that PhDs are also being massively overproduced, again to save on labor costs. I spent four years as a TA helping teach classes for peanuts in living stipend, plus doing research which contributes to my university and PhD mentor's reputation and prestige while costing next to nothing for them. PhD students are cheap teaching and research labor and graduation of PhDs massively outweighs supply. The entire university "business" model in America is hosed from head to toe, relying on cheap undergraduate student debt and cheap (exploitative) labor of graduate students instead of hiring actual professors. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 03:45
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silence_kit posted:While we may be in a tech bubble, I'd be shocked if in the long run, computer programming would become a less important part of the economy. If anything, it would become even more important.
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Sep 29, 2016 04:05
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Dead Reckoning posted:In many cases, American coders offer no competitive advantage over foreign labor. People are already figuring out how to outsource most entry level coding positions. I don't think that this is much of a threat. People have been saying and doing this for a while now, but still the demand for American computer programmers is really high.
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Sep 29, 2016 16:44
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silence_kit posted:I don't think that this is much of a threat. People have been saying and doing this for a while now, but still the demand for American computer programmers is really high. american programmers are prized for on-shore managerial roles. i work for a software vendor, so 80% of our clients are software companies who plug our app into theirs. i'm highly customer facing so i talk to most/all of our clients at some point. i talk to a lot of indian developers and subcontractors, who are generally among the cheapest but they widely range in skill level from good to competent to embarassing. i assume the excellent indian programmers aren't subcontracting, or emigrate. our austrialian clients, for some reason, prefer indonesian and vietnamese developers, who are typically pretty good. a lot of folks use russian shops but russians tend to be excellent and therefore relatively pricey. and i'm starting to see more people using mexican subcontractors. but nearly always there's an american/brit/australian coder either leading the team or being a technical advisor to the project manager this is true mostly for mid-range companies, small firms and giant firms do everything in house for different reasons Dead Reckoning posted:In many cases, American coders offer no competitive advantage over foreign labor. People are already figuring out how to outsource most entry level coding positions. from a pure 'writing code' standpoint maybe, but there's a lot of other aspects to the job - soft skills like documentation and writing reports, english as a primary language, being able to attend meetings without long expensive journeys (people still value face to face contact). a lot of first world coders end up taking on alternative roles such as managing or developer support, and there are still plenty of small fry software companies that can't afford decent outsourced coders boner confessor fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 17:40
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The bubble right now is more of a stupid startup bubble. I highly doubt the demand for good programmers is going to vanish until computers can program themselves. If nothing else Web dev will stick because let's be honest; at this point if you have no Web presence as a business you may as well not exist. This stupidity relating to startups is going to end but the demand for people to gather and analyze data also won't. Nor will robotics. As for cs grads being bad at code that's a problem with the people giving the degrees rather than the degree. It also kind of indicates the problems that have been brought up. Granted part of that is probably some schools teaching a ton of theory but not much practice.
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Sep 29, 2016 18:20
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ToxicSlurpee posted:As for cs grads being bad at code that's a problem with the people giving the degrees rather than the degree. It also kind of indicates the problems that have been brought up. Granted part of that is probably some schools teaching a ton of theory but not much practice.
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Sep 29, 2016 18:46
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twodot posted:I don't agree that college degrees qualify people to do high quality jobs. Now maybe it turns out that capitalists value value-signifiers over money and they let job positions stay empty as they turn down people who would do that job for slightly less money because they think it's super important that their candidate have written essays on Beowulf, but that seems like an unstable equilibrium at best. Having a college education is absolutely necessary for actual high-quality jobs requiring complex skills. Try hiring an engineer without an engineering degree, or a doctor who's never been to med school. High-quality jobs require skills that can't easily be self-taught, a broad span of knowledge without significant holes, and fundamental problem-solving, critical thinking, and group coordination skills that are learned in college. twodot posted:I happen to be a programmer that occasionally interviews programmers, and I routinely find people with CS degrees that can't write a line of code. I thought we were talking about high quality jobs, not glorified secretaries. Ardennes posted:The ultimate issue obviously is there is a shortage coders since we are still in the middle of a giant tech bubble. People can just pick up coding and make a good money but I think it is really short-sighted to think that will always be the case (especially since this already happened before). Let's say the tech bubble collapses, and suddenly there is a massive over-supply of coders...what is plan B for those people? Nah, there's no general shortage of coders. There is a local shortage of coders in and around San Francisco, but the national "shortage" narrative is mostly just an elaborate excuse to hire H1-Bs and avoid adapting to the changing shape of the coding labor market. If you're graduating from college right now with a CS degree and you don't have enough money saved up to move to the West Coast, you'd better have that plan B ready to go.
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Sep 29, 2016 21:35
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Main Paineframe posted:High-quality jobs require skills that can't easily be self-taught, a broad span of knowledge without significant holes, and fundamental problem-solving, critical thinking, and group coordination skills that are learned in college. edit: To tie it back to the point if someone says "We could probably cut 80% of college programs and be fine" saying "20% of college programs offer a very real valuable service" isn't really a response. Assuming you aren't trying to claim all colleges of all majors teach these skills, you're just bickering over where the number is. twodot fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 21:42
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twodot posted:If we're acknowledging that obtaining a CS degree doesn't qualify someone for a job, regardless of the reason, then it seems to me you have a retraction to issue. No. My point, in general, still stands. Take a look at "people who program" and look at the demographics; "people with zero college education" are a tiny minority. Less than 10%. The biggest chunk is "people with a computer science degree." It's certainly possible to become a programmer with no degree but it isn't easy. Generally speaking businesses very obviously prefer to hire educated programmers over uneducated ones. The highest preference is for people specifically educated in computer science. Sorry but you just plain have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. By the way, I'm a programmer with a CS degree. Having said degree was what got me interviews in the first place.
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Sep 29, 2016 23:55
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Main Paineframe posted:If you're graduating from college right now with a CS degree and you don't have enough money saved up to move to the West Coast, you'd better have that plan B ready to go. There are maybe 10 schools where a CS degree pretty much guarantees you a six figure salary on graduation. At any other school, a CS degree will help you a lot to get a job but you still need to do internships and/or independent projects to stand out as a candidate. Soy Division fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 01:49
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twodot posted:There are maybe a small number of programs where having a degree from that program is good evidence that person has some or all of those. It is certainly not true of college degrees in general, and specifically I doubt it's true of the typical degree that disadvantaged people get. I would argue that at a minimum "a broad span of knowledge without significant holes" is going to by definition fail virtually (possibly actually) all programs given I haven't heard of a four year college you can't graduate from by cramming for tests and forgetting everything afterwards, but I'm not certain that's critical to your point. Tell us more about "the typical degree that disadvantaged people get", and how college degrees are useless because poor people aggressively forget everything as soon as they get that piece of paper. 
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Sep 30, 2016 15:30
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Main Paineframe posted:Tell us more about "the typical degree that disadvantaged people get", and how college degrees are useless because poor people aggressively forget everything as soon as they get that piece of paper. ToxicSlurpee posted:No. My point, in general, still stands. Take a look at "people who program" and look at the demographics; "people with zero college education" are a tiny minority. Less than 10%. The biggest chunk is "people with a computer science degree." It's certainly possible to become a programmer with no degree but it isn't easy. Generally speaking businesses very obviously prefer to hire educated programmers over uneducated ones. The highest preference is for people specifically educated in computer science.
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Sep 30, 2016 15:47
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Yeah, people are switching back and forth between "more people need college degrees for the education they provide" and "more people need college degrees because most employers won't look at you without one" which are two very different things.ToxicSlurpee posted:Generally speaking businesses very obviously prefer to hire educated programmers over uneducated ones. The highest preference is for people specifically educated in computer science. boner confessor posted:from a pure 'writing code' standpoint maybe, but there's a lot of other aspects to the job - soft skills like documentation and writing reports, english as a primary language, being able to attend meetings without long expensive journeys (people still value face to face contact). a lot of first world coders end up taking on alternative roles such as managing or developer support, and there are still plenty of small fry software companies that can't afford decent outsourced coders
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Sep 30, 2016 17:20
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Dead Reckoning posted:You are describing management skills, not entry level skills. If there is a manager in America who speaks English, can attend meetings, does QC, and takes the fall if the product doesn't work, no one is going to care (outside the defense sector) if the team he is managing are some anonymous dudes in Southwest Asia, especially if he can offer a lower price point. Your examples could apply any other type of skilled labor, and companies have managed to successfully outsource those. If you don't offer a tangible competitive advantage over a computer or a person from overseas, your job is going to get "disrupted" by someone offering your bosses a way to save money. (Barring those professions like construction and medical care which require a physically present human.) In addition managing outsourced teams is an expensive, inconvenient pain in the rear end and most managers hate it. Outsourcing is useful for very specific enterprise IT tasks and not much else.
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Sep 30, 2016 19:36
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twodot posted:What percent of American college graduates do think possess all the qualities you listed?
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Oct 1, 2016 08:06
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Main Paineframe posted:Try hiring an engineer without an engineering degree, or a doctor who's never been to med school. High-quality jobs require skills that can't easily be self-taught, a broad span of knowledge without significant holes, and fundamental problem-solving, critical thinking, and group coordination skills that are learned in college. OK first off have you actually talked to College graduates? Would you honestly trust the typical grad to be skilled, know poo poo, think their way out of a wet paperbag, without being an annoying little poo poo? Second have you actually looked at what kind of jobs now require a degree? Entering numbers into a spreadsheet does not require higher education.
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Oct 1, 2016 20:04
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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so the strike is probaly going to happen wednesday since neither side is any closer to an arrangement. I am curious how long it will last. most people are saying it will be relativly short. but with the current political climate in general, who knows.
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Oct 16, 2016 16:39
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Dapper_Swindler posted:so the strike is probaly going to happen wednesday since neither side is any closer to an arrangement. I am curious how long it will last. most people are saying it will be relativly short. but with the current political climate in general, who knows. My expectation is that the state is going to absolutely refuse to budge while college presidents piss and moan about how the strike is just so disrespectful to students. Ignoring that the colleges have made it abundantly clear that they give zero actual shits about the students. I also assume that some politicians are going to have a field day with this one, screeching about that dastardly professor's union and those greedy professors just caring about money. One of our state senators recently actually claimed that college professors typically make at least $95K a year for only 17 hours of work per week. I figure the professors are going to get blamed for it.
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Oct 17, 2016 02:39
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ToxicSlurpee posted:My expectation is that the state is going to absolutely refuse to budge while college presidents piss and moan about how the strike is just so disrespectful to students. Ignoring that the colleges have made it abundantly clear that they give zero actual shits about the students. this. My dad is pissed at them and has alot of those same opinions, my mom is pissed that i could get hosed over and all the money spent for this semester will go down the shitter as will the credits. They wont win any allies if this happens and my fear is the state will pull a reagan and just sack them all.(yeah i dont think it will happen, but in these days who knows) And i am sure if it lasts long enough(it might) it will make the national news.
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Oct 17, 2016 03:06
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Dapper_Swindler posted:this. My dad is pissed at them and has alot of those same opinions, my mom is pissed that i could get hosed over and all the money spent for this semester will go down the shitter as will the credits. They wont win any allies if this happens and my fear is the state will pull a reagan and just sack them all.(yeah i dont think it will happen, but in these days who knows) And i am sure if it lasts long enough(it might) it will make the national news. The real problem is that if they get Reaganed it's going to absolutely demolish the state's ability to compete on the national scale economically at all. The state is already dealing with severe brain drain issues even with Pittsburgh having an exploding tech scene. If the state gets what they want they'll have nobody to run the graduate school programs to have grad students to force to teach nor will they be able to hire anybody else. They already have a poo poo load of trouble getting people to teach certain subjects because of the awful starting salaries professors get. If they Reagan everything to death and try to make do with sub-par professors the schools are just going to burn down and die. Of course Republicans love that in the short term but this state is already a complete poo poo hole. People are going to have to go to school out of state and good loving luck convincing them to come back.
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Oct 17, 2016 03:13
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The real problem is that if they get Reaganed it's going to absolutely demolish the state's ability to compete on the national scale economically at all. The state is already dealing with severe brain drain issues even with Pittsburgh having an exploding tech scene. If the state gets what they want they'll have nobody to run the graduate school programs to have grad students to force to teach nor will they be able to hire anybody else. They already have a poo poo load of trouble getting people to teach certain subjects because of the awful starting salaries professors get. If they Reagan everything to death and try to make do with sub-par professors the schools are just going to burn down and die. yeah. stupid question but who at the end of the day even decides that in PA. We have liberal governor but the house and the senate i believe are still GOP. then again i always assumed the state board of education handled all the stuff. if everything goes to poo poo, i doubt i am getting a parachute(nor are most students, cept maybe the super smart ones and maybe athletes.)
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Oct 17, 2016 03:26
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah. stupid question but who at the end of the day even decides that in PA. We have liberal governor but the house and the senate i believe are still GOP. then again i always assumed the state board of education handled all the stuff. if everything goes to poo poo, i doubt i am getting a parachute(nor are most students, cept maybe the super smart ones and maybe athletes.) To be honest I don't know but the GOP-run senate has shown they're perfectly willing to refuse to pass budgets just like their version in D.C. so who the hell knows what will happen. Who decides it may turn out to be irrelevant if the GOP-run senate starts hammering through laws to destroy the state's education system or just plain refuses to pass any laws at all relating to it to fix the problem. It's 31 R 19 D right now so good luck getting anything done at all.
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Oct 17, 2016 04:07
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ToxicSlurpee posted:To be honest I don't know but the GOP-run senate has shown they're perfectly willing to refuse to pass budgets just like their version in D.C. so who the hell knows what will happen. thats what i have been saying to people. alot of people have been saying the strike will be short if it happens at all. but my guess is its gonna be a long one especially if it attracts media attention. The GOP will use it to rail against education and professors and i doubt the admin will just bend the knee. it doesn't help that the senate is still "deadlocked" Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Oct 17, 2016 |
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Oct 17, 2016 05:04
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I don't have a medical degree. Take a wild guess what would happen if I tried to get a job being a doctor. I work for a charity called Doctors without Diplomas
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Oct 17, 2016 05:13
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so this is was my last class day before the deadline, none of my classes did poo poo to today and one of the teachers told us straight up that we dont have to show up and just take the online tests. so i guess i am off class for a while unless they make a deal.
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Oct 18, 2016 00:39
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got an email tonight from the college saying their was no deal reached tonight and i doubt then will reach one in 4 hours(5 am is the deadline).
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Oct 19, 2016 06:41
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http://6abc.com/education/faculty-at-14-pa-state-universities-go-on-strike/1561504/quote:FACULTY AT 14 PA. STATE UNIVERSITIES GO ON STRIKE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkBMAHUkibY
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Oct 19, 2016 15:02
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It's interesting that people keep saying "this will damage enrollment! It's already going down, how dare they strike?!?" while their list of grievances includes why that's been happening. So many people just plain can't afford college anymore even in the state's public schools. Admin costs and what have you are ballooning while they try to get professors to teach on the cheap.
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Oct 19, 2016 15:07
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The first news article I found on this didn't mention anything about the actual demands of the faculty but did mention that the state offered a raise and mentioned professorial salary ranges. lol.
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Oct 19, 2016 15:22
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Gov. Wolf released a pouty statement:Tom Wolf posted:“I am extremely disappointed in the failure of PASSHE and APSCUF to reach an agreement on a contract. The resulting strike is detrimental to the system and will have far-reaching effects for years to come.
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Oct 19, 2016 15:27
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GunnerJ posted:The first news article I found on this didn't mention anything about the actual demands of the faculty but did mention that the state offered a raise and mentioned professorial salary ranges. lol. What I'd like to know is who looks at the salary ranges and thinks "yup, less than $50K a year is perfectly reasonable for somebody with a PhD."
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Oct 19, 2016 16:45
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GunnerJ posted:The first news article I found on this didn't mention anything about the actual demands of the faculty but did mention that the state offered a raise and mentioned professorial salary ranges. lol. GunnerJ posted:The first news article I found on this didn't mention anything about the actual demands of the faculty but did mention that the state offered a raise and mentioned professorial salary ranges. lol. Yeah this is gonna go on for awhile. We had no subs or anything. I am just gonna skip school during the strike. The administration president made a video about how all students should go to class and everything is ok and nothing is wrong. It was very bagdad bob like.
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Oct 19, 2016 16:49
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Yeah this is gonna go on for awhile. We had no subs or anything. I am just gonna skip school during the strike. The administration president made a video about how all students should go to class and everything is ok and nothing is wrong. It was very bagdad bob like. If you have a professor that isn't striking you should probably go to that class just to be safe. At the very least make token appearances for a day or two in case you have That One Professor who decided to be a dick about attendance policies. Like if a professor never shows up don't worry about being there the whole time but y'know. You know the one. Every school has one.
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Oct 19, 2016 16:51
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ToxicSlurpee posted:What I'd like to know is who looks at the salary ranges and thinks "yup, less than $50K a year is perfectly reasonable for somebody with a PhD." They can make UP TO $110k? And they aren't even in finance or making iphone apps?? What the-!
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Oct 19, 2016 17:07
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