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It's kind of hard to make the case that white men are not garbage human beings when that composes near 100% of the alt right, even if you were to take that rhetoric at face value. If the worst thing that happens to you is that your day is slightly inconvenienced by people saying mean things count yourself lucky. Other people wish they could have things that easy.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:14
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What are we going to train them to do? We can't even employ all of our college graduates. The labor pool we are throwing them into is the one that has been diluted by the ultra-rich using decades of cheap immigrant labor. That's why they're mad at the immigrants. What and where are all of these jobs that are going to provide this living for millions of rust belt workers? What is this trainging we are going to provide to older workers that our own young, able-bodied workers can't seem to get?
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Oct 25, 2016 08:16
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steinrokkan posted:Alright, I think we are basically in agreement. I think so too, I was just confused mostly. We cool. new phone who dis posted:You JUST POSTED about how you don't give a poo poo about them in your previous post. You're embodying the very type of leftist I'm speaking about. And you know what? The democratic administration that's coming isn't actually going to be leftist in any meaningful way. It's going to be all pandering bullshit done 100% to continue to set people against each other. The left and the Democrats in general aren't immune or exempt from stoking hate against their enemies. The Clintons put more black people in prison that any other administration. No, I did not. I don't give a poo poo if they want to be racist or not. They don't have to be nice people to be worth helping. I do however think that the type of things they want should be opposed because it's bad. I also don't think Hillary is going to give us full communism now or whatever, she's a pretty banal center left candidate who will inevitably have a lovely right wing Congress who won't do poo poo. In the meantime you still made a silly unironic "Democrats are the real racists against white people" argument which is just kinda hilarious lmao.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:16
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Rush Limbo posted:It's kind of hard to make the case that white men are not garbage human beings when that composes near 100% of the alt right, even if you were to take that rhetoric at face value. This is just blatant racism and the same argument could be used for blacks and the prevalence of crime.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:17
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Rush Limbo posted:It's kind of hard to make the case that white men are not garbage human beings when that composes near 100% of the alt right, even if you were to take that rhetoric at face value. Do you really think everybody in the alt right is a wealthy capitalist whose only gripe is that somebody said something mean to him, and maybe that their Martini was stirred rather then shaken? After decades, if not centuries of talking about white trash and working poor this seems quite interesting.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:18
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Lightning Knight posted:I think so too, I was just confused mostly. We cool. It's not the Democrats, it's the "new left" of lovely academics and legit racists against white people coming up through the ranks right now. Just a few posts back you can see one who thinks it's ok to consider all white people garbage because of the alt-right. If you can't talk on a thinly populated forum in the wee hours of the evening without one showing up, how can you make the argument that they aren't out there?
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Oct 25, 2016 08:19
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new phone who dis posted:It's not the Democrats, it's the "new left" of lovely academics and legit racists against white people coming up through the ranks right now. Just a few posts back you can see one who thinks it's ok to consider all white people garbage because of the alt-right. If you can't talk on a thinly populated forum in the wee hours of the evening without one showing up, how can you make the argument that they aren't out there? Have you like, taken sociology 101? You don't really understand institutional racism.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:21
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new phone who dis posted:It's not the Democrats, it's the "new left" of lovely academics and legit racists against white people coming up through the ranks right now. Just a few posts back you can see one who thinks it's ok to consider all white people garbage because of the alt-right. If you can't talk on a thinly populated forum in the wee hours of the evening without one showing up, how can you make the argument that they aren't out there? Uh, this is the DnD, and everybody talks edgy by default, you might as well make a survey of DeviantArt to determine that everybody is a furry.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:22
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Lightning Knight posted:Have you like, taken sociology 101? You don't really understand institutional racism. I completely understand it and there's more than one form of racism. Every time someone says "racism", it doesn't mean "institutional racism". And if the tool to combat "institutional racism" is just plain old "racism", are you even the good guy any more?
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Oct 25, 2016 08:24
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steinrokkan posted:Do you really think everybody in the alt right is a wealthy capitalist whose only gripe is that somebody said something mean to him, and maybe that their Martini was stirred rather then shaken? After decades, if not centuries of talking about white trash and working poor this seems quite interesting. See the thing is that the alt right are a special kind of failure since they had literally everything handed on a plate to them yet they still managed to gently caress it up. I'm not sure how you take 'alt right are all wealthy capitalists' from my statement, and even though this isn't the case it still doesn't exonerate them because being in a lovely economic situation does not have any bearing on your character or your societal responsibility to not be a lovely person.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:32
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new phone who dis posted:The left is absolutely stoking hate against whites and the right in general to power their new authoritarian power-grab, and that's why Hillary is such an attractive candidate to so many of them. The aether of the internet these days is polluted just as much if not more with posts and musings about how garbage white people are in general or how men are some sort of subhuman gender that need to be controlled at every turn. The "new left" or "ctrl-left" as some people call them isn't really that far off from the Alt-right. It's not like we haven't seen Communist and Fascist authoritarians come to blows in the past. And although you worry about the Alt-Right coming to power and doing damage, it's actually much more likely that authoritarian leftists do it in the near future. Eh, I'm less worried about authoritarian leftists because the Democratic establishment really has the situation much better under control. Republicans lost control because the party as a whole completely lacks any leaders who know how to manage the fringe elements of the base. That's why Boehner's resignation last year was such a huge disaster, and why it's hard to imagine the House functioning if Republicans somehow maintain it in the face of a wave election. There isn't any figure respected by both establishment and fringe conservatives anymore. Paul Ryan briefly held that role, but the minute he tried to whip the Tea Party into actually doing anything they turned on him like rabid animals. I fully expect that in the wake of a Democratic victory Paul Ryan isn't even going to have a leadership position, assuming he even has his original seat anymore. (yes I'm an optimist) By contrast the Democrats do not, as far as I am aware, have any kind of caucus that could be classified as fringe left. Bernie's pushing a slate of progressives, but these are people with actual resumes of real-life community work, not random citizens who have just hated patriarchy since time memorial. The closest I can think of to fringe left figures with any kind of legitimacy are people like Lena Durham, Zoe Quinn, or Emma Sulkowicz. Their powers of PR might be enough to get them sympathetic news coverage and a congressional invite but they'd be obliterated in the vetting process required to run a local campaign. The problem with being an Internet activist is that you're equally obscure everywhere. People in your own home town don't know you. For real, one of the factors that's really warmed me up to Hillary is that she's shown herself to be really good at managing the overall tent. She'll throw these people a bone by mentioning the alt-right in a speech, but beyond that Hillary's just running on a bog-standard Democratic platform of good stuff that no one finds all that objectionable. I've been seeing her push during the primaries as "first woman President" as being less a cynical attempt to co-opt women voters and more as sly politicking making it functionally impossible for radical feminists (probably the single most powerful element of the fringe left) to question her thanks to identity politics. The Bernie supporters everyone was so worried about before? They're fully on the train now. This very forum is proof of that. Rush Limbo posted:See the thing is that the alt right are a special kind of failure since they had literally everything handed on a plate to them yet they still managed to gently caress it up. You do realize they don't hand the keys of the city over to white men just because they're white men, right? This is a big part of the blowback against identity politics in general. You can't walk up to a person who's being hosed by forces completely beyond their imagination and go "wow, what a loser. All the white men in the world were on your side and you hosed it up". We're not a union that looks out for each other. I mean poo poo, that's why the alt-right is trying to create White Nationalism in the first place. Maybe then they'd get some easier to see benefits from white privilege. Some Guy TT fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Oct 25, 2016 |
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Oct 25, 2016 08:34
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new phone who dis posted:I completely understand it and there's more than one form of racism. Every time someone says "racism", it doesn't mean "institutional racism". And if the tool to combat "institutional racism" is just plain old "racism", are you even the good guy any more? Eroding white male privilege isn't racism.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:37
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The right dissolving into irrelevance is precisely the type of situation required for the more authoritarian leftists to assert more power. Once the right is broken and run down to death (and they will rightly be after this election), the big dragons are largely slain or dormant. Even more eyes are going to turn to the dumb internal witch hunts and stupid identity politics currently seeping in more and more from the fringe. The Dems are great when opposing the right, but turn into an absolute loving disaster when they have the ball in their court. I wouldn't even be surprised if they had a splinter party break off if the Republicans stay in disarray long enough.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:40
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Lightning Knight posted:Eroding white male privilege isn't racism. Calling all white people garbage is racism, not eroding white privilege.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:40
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new phone who dis posted:The right dissolving into irrelevance is precisely the type of situation required for the more authoritarian leftists to assert more power. Once the right is broken and run down to death (and they will rightly be after this election), the big dragons are largely slain or dormant. Even more eyes are going to turn to the dumb internal witch hunts and stupid identity politics currently seeping in more and more from the fringe. The Dems are great when opposing the right, but turn into an absolute loving disaster when they have the ball in their court. I wouldn't even be surprised if they had a splinter party break off if the Republicans stay in disarray long enough. Maybe so, but at that point we're looking into hypothetical situations about as far removed as actual fascists taking power. For the moment I'd rather take this one step at a time then give myself an ulcer trying to be Nostradamus.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:42
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Rush Limbo posted:See the thing is that the alt right are a special kind of failure since they had literally everything handed on a plate to them yet they still managed to gently caress it up. Pictured: Special kind of failures who failed to capitalize on their privileged access to the white government. 
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Oct 25, 2016 08:41
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new phone who dis posted:The right dissolving into irrelevance is precisely the type of situation required for the more authoritarian leftists to assert more power. Once the right is broken and run down to death (and they will rightly be after this election), the big dragons are largely slain or dormant. Even more eyes are going to turn to the dumb internal witch hunts and stupid identity politics currently seeping in more and more from the fringe. The Dems are great when opposing the right, but turn into an absolute loving disaster when they have the ball in their court. I wouldn't even be surprised if they had a splinter party break off if the Republicans stay in disarray long enough. The Republican Party collapsing will not bring about American Stalin. It will cause the Democrats to eventually splinter across the progressive/business line or the Republicans to reform as a purely business oriented small c conservative party. There will not be some powerful authoritarian leftist movement springing from the ether to claim power.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:45
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I have zero sympathy for white right wingers, who have systemically supported and continue to support a bloc that has hosed over their rights because they want to gently caress over minorities harder. Even as bad as things are, literally none of them would trade places with a black guy in the same situation, because they would be so much worse. My only hope is that these people gain the wherewithal to realise that their policy of spite is doing terrible harm to themselves and that this revelation occurs before people start getting openly lynched once more.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:46
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Allowing complaints about the institution to be leveled against random individuals who fit a certain appearance criteria is where it went wacky. You're taking general concepts to do with white privilege like conviction rates or incarceration rates or employment rates, and then condensing them down on to a single individual's shoulders for the sake of personal arguments like some sort of original sin. It's all very religious.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:47
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Rush Limbo posted:I have zero sympathy for white right wingers, who have systemically supported and continue to support a bloc that has hosed over their rights because they want to gently caress over minorities harder. It's spite all around at this point. Nobody is selling hope and change this election.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:48
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new phone who dis posted:It's spite all around at this point. Nobody is selling hope and change this election. Hillary is literally running on 1) America is already great and we can make it better and 2) I want to continue and make possible the Obama legacy you voted for twice. You don't like her and that's why her message doesn't resonate with you. Make America Great Again only makes sense as a slogan if you insert (For White Straight Men) after it.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:51
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Rush Limbo posted:Even as bad as things are, literally none of them would trade places with a black guy in the same situation, because they would be so much worse. I don't know, they seem pretty deluded to me about the state of race relations. Like, they've convinced themselves so hard that getting shot while Black is such a non-existent problem that they'd gladly take the Affirmative Action, because in their minds that's the only difference between white people and black people. White nationalism, fortunately, gives them an out to avoid having to seriously ponder the implications of such a hypothetical choice. Lightning Knight posted:Hillary is literally running on 1) America is already great and we can make it better and 2) I want to continue and make possible the Obama legacy you voted for twice. You don't like her and that's why her message doesn't resonate with you. Hey, be fair. You can't insist America is already great while also saying that racism and sexism is a scourge upon our culture that has to be obliterated. Your logic cuts both ways.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:50
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Lightning Knight posted:Hillary is literally running on 1) America is already great and we can make it better and 2) I want to continue and make possible the Obama legacy you voted for twice. You don't like her and that's why her message doesn't resonate with you. I don't like her because 30 years of her politics doesn't match her bullshit mantra. She reduced bankruptcy protection for the middle and lower class. She's in bed with the banks that hosed the economy. She's a warmonger and a habitual liar. Of course she thinks America is great. She's been sucking it's blood dry for 30 years while everyone else suffered.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:54
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Saying America is already great (and just needs the deck chairs rearranged) is probably not a smart motto at a time of a supposed great existential crisis of the whole nation.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:54
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new phone who dis posted:I don't like her because 30 years of her politics doesn't match her bullshit mantra. She reduced bankruptcy protection for the middle and lower class. She's in bed with the banks that hosed the economy. She's a warmonger and a habitual liar. Of course she thinks America is great. She's been sucking it's blood dry for 30 years while everyone else suffered. Ok. So then don't vote. As upset as you are by the semi-ironic "kill whitey" rhetoric in D&D, nobody gives a gently caress what we few nerds on a dying comedy forum think. Hillary Clinton is going to be the next President of the United States and despite your aggressive pessimism I am fairly sure that baring some outside context event she's going to be an above average President. Such is the way of the world. quote:Saying America is already great (and just needs the deck chairs rearranged) is probably not a great motto at a time of a supposed great existential crisis of the whole nation. That's because there isn't. The supposed existential crisis is white people, specifically white men, realizing they're going to lose their iron grip on American electoral politics because ~gasp~ white people won't be the majority in a few cycles. Thus they're throwing a huge Trump shaped tantrum. The American Right doesn't live in reality and most of our problems aren't loving hard to fix if Congress would actually do its loving job. Soon enough there won't be enough Republicans to elect shitheels like Paul Ryan or the Tea Party or Trump to anything and things will start getting done. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Oct 25, 2016 |
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Oct 25, 2016 08:56
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The fact that Trump is even running and made it through the vetting of the primaries proves his point, but probably not in the way he means it. A loving piece of poo poo snake oil reality TV salesman who is also probably a rapist is running for president.
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Oct 25, 2016 08:56
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Lightning Knight posted:Ok. So then don't vote. As upset as you are by the semi-ironic "kill whitey" rhetoric in D&D, nobody gives a gently caress what we few nerds on a dying comedy forum think. Hillary Clinton is going to be the next President of the United States and despite your aggressive pessimism I am fairly sure that baring some outside context event she's going to be an above average President. Such is the way of the world. I guess it's only ironic when you guys do it and not the alt-right, eh?
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Oct 25, 2016 08:57
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new phone who dis posted:I guess it's only ironic when you guys do it and not the alt-right, eh? White people in general and more specifically white straight men statistically consistently vote for horrible candidates. Other groups do in some degree or another but the Republican Party as it is is largely floated by white people and specifically white straight men. Kill whitey is a dumb meme but the fact is, white people kinda suck, politically. When they stop voting consistently for the worst in American politics, maybe they can shed that distinction.
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Oct 25, 2016 09:00
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Lightning Knight posted:White people in general and more specifically white straight men statistically consistently vote for horrible candidates. Other groups do in some degree or another but the Republican Party as it is is largely floated by white people and specifically white straight men. Kill whitey is a dumb meme but the fact is, white people kinda suck, politically. When they stop voting consistently for the worst in American politics, maybe they can shed that distinction. I hate to break it to you but the worst Democratic candidate run in living history was just foisted upon us by the black vote. People voting directly against their own interest and a history of being hosed over by the Clintons. lovely voting habits are everywhere in a lovely system.
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Oct 25, 2016 09:03
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new phone who dis posted:I hate to break it to you but the worst Democratic candidate run in living history was just foisted upon us by the black vote. People voting directly against their own interest and a history of being hosed over by the Clintons. lovely voting habits are everywhere in a lovely system. Hmmmmm. I don't think any Democratic president has ever been "forced on us by black people" because, you know, they're only like a fifth of the electorate. And you sure are fixated on the Clintons and how "horrible they were for America," as if there wasn't people like the Bushes or Reagan involved, no sir.
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Oct 25, 2016 09:07
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Lightning Knight posted:Hmmmmm. I don't think any Democratic president has ever been "forced on us by black people" because, you know, they're only like a fifth of the electorate. And you sure are fixated on the Clintons and how "horrible they were for America," as if there wasn't people like the Bushes or Reagan involved, no sir. If we're going to throw guilt around based on race for political candidates, Hillary Clinton is 100% going to win because of the black vote in the south. Most of those evil white men you hate so much in your party actually voted for the other guy, but don't let that kill your hate boner.
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Oct 25, 2016 09:10
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If I was in that position I'd take the worst Democratic candidate over the cream of the Republican crop any day of the week. I mean, in preference I'd rather not be hosed up the rear end with a baton either way but if it's going to happen I'd rather they lube it up first.
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Oct 25, 2016 09:11
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Rush Limbo posted:If I was in that position I'd take the worst Democratic candidate over the cream of the Republican crop any day of the week. I mean, in preference I'd rather not be hosed up the rear end with a baton either way but if it's going to happen I'd rather they lube it up first. That wasn't the choice, though. It was Clinton or Sanders.
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Oct 25, 2016 09:12
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new phone who dis posted:If we're going to throw guilt around based on race for political candidates, Hillary Clinton is 100% going to win because of the black vote in the south. Most of those evil white men you hate so much in your party actually voted for the other guy, but don't let that kill your hate boner. Uh, she's going to win because drat near everyone is going to vote for her. You clearly don't follow polls. Your weird obsession with "the black vote" notwithstanding. And I voted for Bernie in the primary. I'm glad Hillary won because she's a better politician, however. You can be mad all you want about "the authoritarian left" and "anti-white racism." You're both an idiot and completely wrong about the trajectory of American politics, and thank Christ for that.
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Oct 25, 2016 09:15
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Lightning Knight posted:Uh, she's going to win because drat near everyone is going to vote for her. You clearly don't follow polls. Your weird obsession with "the black vote" notwithstanding. And I voted for Bernie in the primary. I'm glad Hillary won because she's a better politician, however. You really think the modern American left needs "better politicians?"
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Oct 25, 2016 09:16
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new phone who dis posted:You really think the modern American left needs "better politicians?" "The American Left" isn't a big enough coherent voting bloc to elect people by itself. So if we desire to get anyone elected who isn't an insipid fascist bent on running the country into the ground, we must compromise with the neoliberal business wing. So yes, I do.
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Oct 25, 2016 09:19
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new phone who dis posted:You really think the modern American left needs "better politicians?" Well,I do at least. Better is kind of a wide definition though. Better at understanding issues, getting stuff done, not being a terrible person , sure.
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Oct 25, 2016 09:21
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There's only one way to be a good politician in this system, and it doesn't involve understanding issues, getting things done, or being a good person. It means taking money from the best-paying interests and squashing anything that's going to rock the boat for those interests. Hillary is real good at that. If good politician is what you want, boy are you getting it.
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Oct 25, 2016 09:25
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I like Bernie and I agree with a lot of his positions, but he definitely has a weird blind spot when it comes to minorities and if he was the Democratic candidate we probably would have a Fascist America because those minorities have considerable voting power and not being able to secure their vote would be the death knell for the Democrat's chances. Maybe in the future a Democrat candidate would stand who would be Bernie but better and a compromise wouldn't be necessary.
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Oct 25, 2016 09:26
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Rush Limbo posted:I like Bernie and I agree with a lot of his positions, but he definitely has a weird blind spot when it comes to minorities and if he was the Democratic candidate we probably would have a Fascist America because those minorities have considerable voting power and not being able to secure their vote would be the death knell for the Democrat's chances. Nah Bernie would've won, minority voters would've turned out against Trump regardless, it just would've been much closer for longer and he probably wouldn't actually handle being President well. He'd be Carter 2.0. new phone who dis posted:There's only one way to be a good politician in this system, and it doesn't involve understanding issues, getting things done, or being a good person. It means taking money from the best-paying interests and squashing anything that's going to rock the boat for those interests. Hillary is real good at that. If good politician is what you want, boy are you getting it. I mean, you can be breathtakingly pessimistic and assume that nothing can get better or change despite mounting evidence that we're on the cusp of immense change, if you insist.
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Oct 25, 2016 09:29
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