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Full Disclosure: I'm white Skin bleaching is a cosmetic procedure where one lightens their skin tone. There's a variety of ways of doing this, one of the worst being a chemical cocktail that literally peels away your skin. More benign methods include creams though sometimes these have toxic chemicals in them such as mercury. One perspective on skin bleaching is that it is akin to tanning or other cosmetic modifications such as piercings. Another is that skin bleaching is a response to colonialism and deeply-entrenched cultural values that trend to favoring lighter skin. Obviously, geography plays a big role for any conversation around skin bleaching. While skin bleaching is seen as benign in some places, such as Japan, in others skin bleaching products are outright banned, such as South Africa. If you want more information just about the cosmetics of skin bleaching, wikipedia is where I went and it seemed fine to me, but I'm far from familiar with this subject. Okay, that's the high-school essay intro for the thread. Skin bleaching is a big deal where I'm living right now, which is Jamaica. Some people view it as harmless, others view those who do it as race-traitors or outright racist, and then there's a lot of in-between. I made this thread to help get more perspective on this issue and to better prepare myself for when the kids I work with engage me on this subject; I want to be able to provide them a meaningful response, so far, all I can really muster is "I don't think you need to do that to be beautiful/handsome/successful". Some of the older kids are aware of how racist the world is though and don't take that response too seriously. But my situation is unique! Other cultures have different experiences with this subject and I welcome those conversations. I was unaware, for instance, that Japan did skin bleaching as well but that the emphasis is primarily on the face and not the body. In Jamaica, it's more extreme with some Jamaicans using dangerous mixes of chemicals to burn their skin off. If your response to this is "Do not police what people do with their bodies," I understand. If your response is, "that's not your place to talk about it," I understand. Please share those thoughts.
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Sep 25, 2016 21:02
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I suppose skin bleaching is kind of the most visible and irrefutable expression of internalised racism, one that even white people unaffected by racism and blinded by privilege kind of have to take note of and confront. It's just there and you need some incredibly perverse leaps of unlogic to not acknowledge it. I guess the worst part about it is that it's not some erroneous belief; lighter skin really does open doors, even in majority black cultures, and the same is true of other stereotypically caucasian features like straight hair, thinner lips, rounder eyes or narrow, aquiline noses which can lead to better off ethnic minorities seeking out even plastic surgery. Even though the root of the caucasoid prestige and privilege comes from colonialism and various systems of white supremacy, it's taken on such a life of its own in some cultures that even when most other systems of white hegemony are removed or replaced the phenomenon persists - though the proliferation of western white-dominated media and advertising no doubt still plays a role in propagating it. It's a feedback loop too. Because of this attitude those with whiter features get further and do better in the social sphere and become more visible as models of success. I don't even know where you'd begin with trying to unpick the whole thing, particularly as a white fella that's experiencing it from the outside. Disclaimer: I am also a white fella observing the phenomenon from the outside and some or all of the above could be a crock of poo poo and require correction by someone with a better understanding of the issue.
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Sep 25, 2016 22:49
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Here's an article if you guys want something more substantial to respond to: http://www.dontparty.co.za/africa/whiter-shade-of-pale/ quote:South Africa, Gambia, Ghana, Kenya, and more recently the Ivory Coast have banned “skin whitening” creams and lotions over fears that the cosmetic products can cause longterm health problems. There is definitely a conflict between what authorities are trying to asset and what the general population is doing in South Africa.
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Sep 25, 2016 23:43
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TomViolence posted:I suppose skin bleaching is kind of the most visible and irrefutable expression of internalised racism, one that even white people unaffected by racism and blinded by privilege kind of have to take note of and confront. It's just there and you need some incredibly perverse leaps of unlogic to not acknowledge it. I guess the worst part about it is that it's not some erroneous belief; lighter skin really does open doors, even in majority black cultures, and the same is true of other stereotypically caucasian features like straight hair, thinner lips, rounder eyes or narrow, aquiline noses which can lead to better off ethnic minorities seeking out even plastic surgery. Even though the root of the caucasoid prestige and privilege comes from colonialism and various systems of white supremacy, it's taken on such a life of its own in some cultures that even when most other systems of white hegemony are removed or replaced the phenomenon persists - though the proliferation of western white-dominated media and advertising no doubt still plays a role in propagating it. It's a feedback loop too. Because of this attitude those with whiter features get further and do better in the social sphere and become more visible as models of success. I don't even know where you'd begin with trying to unpick the whole thing, particularly as a white fella that's experiencing it from the outside. This has all been around from long before racism as we know it was even a concept. Or before colonialism.
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Sep 26, 2016 00:40
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N. Senada posted:Here's an article if you guys want something more substantial to respond to: I mean, there's some very good reasons why South Africa of all places might have issues with it?
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Sep 26, 2016 00:59
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tsa posted:This has all been around from long before racism as we know it was even a concept. Or before colonialism. I was going to say, isn't lighter skin color something prized in societies like India or China, and was so prized even before European Imperialism?
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Sep 26, 2016 01:02
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:I was going to say, isn't lighter skin color something prized in societies like India or China, and was so prized even before European Imperialism? Yeah, I guess I forgot about that. I think it's something to do with agrarian societies and nobility. You work in the fields all day your skin is darker, whereas if you're sitting on your rear end in the shade all day like an aristocrat you're paler and thus more prestigious. Still, though, in a modern post-industrial society it should be the inverse: workers are inside now, the well-to-do can go on vacation or visit tanning salons. And it doesn't explain away the various other obsessions like facial characteristics, eye shape or hair texture.
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Sep 26, 2016 01:14
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N. Senada posted:If your response to this is "Do not police what people do with their bodies," I understand. If your response is, "that's not your place to talk about it," I understand. Please share those thoughts. Being an extremely light-skinned person with a black parent, I'm often disgusted when I hear black kids berate one another for being dark. Having said that, if I try to act like I know better than them that's going to sound ridiculous coming from me. I keep it to "be respectful and don't play into stereotypes others have imposed on you." Beyond issues of disrespect, there's not too much to say. If you try to say that society values their darker color, well, that isn't true. They will face increased discrimination if they don't do it. The problem is not the kids wanting the product, the problem is everything that led up to them wanting it.
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Sep 26, 2016 01:46
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In India I think it might actually trace back all the way to the Indo-Aryans moving in.
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Sep 26, 2016 01:48
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Ben Franklin posted:
Swarthy Englishwomen maybe wore blush for this reason?
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Sep 26, 2016 01:57
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I realize this opinion is going to lead to me being accused of various prejudices but I really don't have a problem with skin lightening and hair straightening - except, of course, from a purely medical perspective in the sense that some of these products might be outright toxic or strongly carcinogenic, in which case they should be banned just like any sufficiently harmful cosmetic would be. But then, I don't subscribe to the beliefs of some of the left that colonialism and cultural hegemony are necessarily and always a bad thing. Historically harmful and unjust? Definitely. An indispensable part of the creation of a modern, secular, materialist global culture? Also definitely. To the OP, I would honestly suggest that those who feel pressured to engage in skin bleaching instead focus on consciously modeling their modes of dress and speech after the first world culture(s) that they identify with or want acceptance from. If they still feel insecure about their appearance, maybe suggest using hair straighteners instead of skin creams, since it's less harmful and also less drastic in terms of what we might call internalized-racist-flagellation. That being said, I am willing to be the devil's advocate and say that, in the specific case of Jamaica, wanting to make a visible break with the perceived stereotypical appearance of their native culture can absolutely be an understandable, even healthy and laudable, desire. Anti-racism is a fine cause, but in cases like this, it sometimes crosses the line into essentialist, supremacist arguments about the unique value of a particular range of skin tones. It is important to remember that skin tones have no inherent value one way or the other.
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Sep 26, 2016 03:41
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i thought this thread was going to be about why people bleach their buttholes
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Sep 26, 2016 03:45
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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As a white i am offended by this practice. We are a proud and noble people with a history. We are not a costume.
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Sep 26, 2016 03:52
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As a white man in Asia, women regularly come up to ask how I got my skin and hair color. I'm ghostly pale and have brownish/reddish hair. These features, so have I been told repeatedly, match the platonic ideal of feminine beauty in most of East Asia. I'm never sure how to answer, and it makes me uncomfortable to see the emotional distress caused by these beauty standards. But it's not my place to lecture others on their cultures ideals or their personal beauty regimen. So I just smile and say thank you. Also, the practice of skin bleaching in Asia effectively mirrors of tanning culture in the west. White people getting uncomfortable about the former is just as stupid as claiming the latter is cultural appropriation.
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Sep 26, 2016 04:34
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Also a 'white guy in Asia.' I live in Taiwan, where ethnic Taiwanese and Hakka have darker skin tones than those whose grandparents are Beijingers that fled from China when the Communists kicked the KMT out. From what I gather, the Chinese and Japanese both have this idea that light, fair skin is a sign of wealth, opulence, and status. Taiwan was governed by Japan for almost half a century, then by the KMT which was Chinese. So the cultural idea of fair, white skin is ingrained here. I mean, hell, even the Taiwanese puppets are loving white as hell. Hair straightening, colored contacts, and other make up to simulate western styles and looks are done more to appear "exotic", as people are often attracted to what is different. It's interesting how this plays out male-female wise here among those who care that much about their looks. Women will go for "Western/European" looks, while men will go for "K-pop boy band". Both involve skin bleaching. It was jarring walking into my local Family Mart and seeing skin whitening facial masks for men. But, I also live in Southern Taiwan, so the skin whitening thing isn't as prevalent. We'll see how things are when I move to Taipei, which has a larger population of folks whose grandparents came over in the 1940s/50s.
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Sep 26, 2016 04:51
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DeusExMachinima posted:i thought this thread was going to be about why people bleach their buttholes skin bleaching and poo; a journey from brown starfish to white eye Liberal_L33t posted:It is important to remember that skin tones have no inherent value one way or the other. I hear this. I feel slightly bad telling the young girls that they're skin is beautiful because I'm reinforcing a gender norm that they're supposed to be working towards beauty as a woman. They get enough poo poo when they don't act like the right kind of woman, I'm worried that my statements are pushing them to recognize their only value is their body. woke wedding drone posted:Beyond issues of disrespect, there's not too much to say. If you try to say that society values their darker color, well, that isn't true. They will face increased discrimination if they don't do it. The problem is not the kids wanting the product, the problem is everything that led up to them wanting it. This is helpful for me. I should try to direct their attention to attitudes and paths that can let them get to where they want to be. And if that path is just to look paler with no other purpose, then I guess there's not much to say to that person. But if it's because they believe they'll be more successful if they're pale, I can articulate other methods of achieving success or challenge them to better describe what that success is. I don't know. Thanks for the responses so far y'all.
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Sep 26, 2016 05:01
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Liberal_L33t posted:That being said, I am willing to be the devil's advocate and say that, in the specific case of Jamaica, wanting to make a visible break with the perceived stereotypical appearance of their native culture can absolutely be an understandable, even healthy and laudable, desire. Anti-racism is a fine cause, but in cases like this, it sometimes crosses the line into essentialist, supremacist arguments about the unique value of a particular range of skin tones. It is important to remember that skin tones have no inherent value one way or the other. So... your argument is that there is no inherent value to skin tone but Jamaicans should still strive to lighten their skin tone or otherwise appear more Anglo and less African in order to appease racist white people because otherwise Jamaicans will be valued less as individuals?
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Sep 26, 2016 06:29
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Interestingly, I seem to remember a book about African history - damned if I can remember which country it was, though - which mentioned a beauty technique of effectively tattooing the palms of hands to make them darker. I remember thinking, in light of the subject being discussed, that it was an interesting part re. 'lightness being beautiful'. Can't recall the book's name for the life of me, tho.
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Sep 26, 2016 07:58
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pasty skin is ugly anyways. enjoy pouring weird caustic chemicals on your body to satisfy your internal racist
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Sep 26, 2016 08:30
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I don't understand the surprise over skin bleaching in black cultures. Post-colonialism is an ugly disease. In my parents' youth certain people couldn't hold jobs like teachers or bank tellers because they weren't "clear" enough. My brown skinned mother married my dark skinned father amidst subtle and not so subtle handwringing about the skin colour of their as yet unborn children. My mom was constantly asked if her children 'all had the same father' because my baby sister took after my dad while me and my other sister took after my mom. My cousins are 'better looking' than I because they are "shabin". I was teased relentlessly at school for not having a nose bridge. I spent a long time crushing hopelessly on (white) guys with Roman noses. I grew up on a diet of Seventeen magazine and Cosmo where everyone was white. I read Sweet Valley High and Nancy Drew and even Enid Blyton (where the only black character is a loving golliwog.) The dark girl in Destiny's Child was the least pretty and was quickly dropped. Dark Aunt Viv on the Fresh Prince was replaced by light Aunt Viv. Lil Kim was clowned on because she was "dark" (close to my complexion). Google her now. Guys fawn over Beyonce in a way they never did about Foxy Brown. I used to smile and feel good about Buju singing "I love mi car mi love mi bike mi love mi money and ting, but most of all mi love mi browning" until I learned that I certainly did not qualify as browning because I wasn't "clear" enough and my hair wasn't long enough. Serena Williams is clowned as manly because she is a big strong black woman. I could go on but maybe that's enough. Generations of black Americans, Africans and Caribbean people have grown up hosed in the head because of white supremacist indoctrination. Don't act so shocked that some are willing to do ANYTHING (from blonde weave and hazel contacts to nose jobs and skin bleaching) to erase the stain of their blackness. It makes it easier to survive and to thrive.
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Sep 26, 2016 10:42
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Preem Palver posted:So... your argument is that there is no inherent value to skin tone but Jamaicans should still strive to lighten their skin tone or otherwise appear more Anglo and less African in order to appease racist white people because otherwise Jamaicans will be valued less as individuals? Yes, and also to appease other black people who have internalized said racism. I'm aware there is a certain amount of inherent injustice, here. But when it comes to this particular nation and society, I'm of the mind to say that a little more first world cultural hegemony would be a good thing.
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Sep 26, 2016 18:20
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Ew. Gross. Your opinions I mean.
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Sep 26, 2016 19:03
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I believe he's a firm believer in the belief that melanin is some sort of highly volatile psychoactive drug like PCP that will turn you into a frothing lunatic if you have too much of it. I mean, how else could he possibly explain his belief that skin lightening is the path to enlightenment.
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Sep 26, 2016 20:22
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ah yes thats exactly what this world needs, more homogeneity.
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Sep 26, 2016 23:40
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Rigged Death Trap posted:ah yes thats exactly what this world needs, more homogeneity. Yes. I realize that isn't a popular position to take. But I do in fact believe that the homogenizing power of western culture and media has been a profoundly positive influence. Western, Americanized consumer culture gets a lot of criticism for spreading all over the world, I think a little perspective and careful consideration of the alternatives put the lie to that. Let's go back to the initial questions in this thread. There does seem to be widespread acceptance of the (admittedly lamentable) fact that having skin darker than a certain shade imposes opportunity costs. For the record, I think the OP was on the right track in saying "if it's because they believe they'll be more successful if they're pale, I can articulate other methods of achieving success or challenge them to better describe what that success is". Certainly, skin bleaching is a delicate issue and probably best avoided in this context if only because it can lead to frightening levels of backlash. All that being said, I think trying to instill in these children the exceptional, unique value of their own particular appearance or ethnic/cultural group is the wrong response and likely to result in brittle loops of circular reasoning and naturalistic fallacies ("You shouldn't want to change your appearance, black is beautiful!" Hypothetical child: "Why is black beautiful?" "Because it is how you naturally look!"). Instead the focus should be on sending the message that skin tone, like any other aspect of their appearance, does not define them or limit their options unless they choose to let it. Maybe that isn't always true but it's the most positive way to respond to the problem I can think of without falling into the trap of essentialism. I feel like it's worth mentioning that Ghana, the country that made headlines for ordering an outright ban of skin-lightening ointments, is also a country that as of a few years ago started calling upon the citizens to inform on any neighbors or tenants they suspected of being gay so that they could be rounded up and arrested. Ethnic nationalism, including non-white ethnic nationalism, has a strong tendency to be correlated with horribly regressive attitudes. So yes, I would say that we can acknowledge that the tendency for these young people to think they need skin lightening is unfortunate, but their fellow citizens that go berserk in response have some very ugly attitudes themselves.
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Sep 27, 2016 04:09
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wyldhoney posted:I don't understand the surprise over skin bleaching in black cultures. i had no idea that there was this kind of.... gradient. i didn't realize you would be treated worse the blacker your skin got, even by your own race
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Sep 27, 2016 07:14
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Liberal_L33t posted:Yes. I realize that isn't a popular position to take. But I do in fact believe that the homogenizing power of western culture and media has been a profoundly positive influence. Western, Americanized consumer culture gets a lot of criticism for spreading all over the world, I think a little perspective and careful consideration of the alternatives put the lie to that. Here was me thinking the myth of the civilising mission was dead and buried. Some of us aren't hugely fond of capitalism and consider it to have exacerbated the pre-exisitng social problems you consider to be the worse alternatives in the first place. Liberal_L33t posted:Let's go back to the initial questions in this thread. There does seem to be widespread acceptance of the (admittedly lamentable) fact that having skin darker than a certain shade imposes opportunity costs. For the record, I think the OP was on the right track in saying "if it's because they believe they'll be more successful if they're pale, I can articulate other methods of achieving success or challenge them to better describe what that success is". Certainly, skin bleaching is a delicate issue and probably best avoided in this context if only because it can lead to frightening levels of backlash. All that being said, I think trying to instill in these children the exceptional, unique value of their own particular appearance or ethnic/cultural group is the wrong response and likely to result in brittle loops of circular reasoning and naturalistic fallacies ("You shouldn't want to change your appearance, black is beautiful!" Hypothetical child: "Why is black beautiful?" "Because it is how you naturally look!"). There's a big difference between the privileging of one race over others and the attempt in the African diaspora to rebuild and foster a sense of self-esteem in one's ethnic identity. "Black is beautiful" is like "Black lives matter"; it carries an implicit "too" with it. "Black is beautiful" is not the same ballpark as "white is right." Liberal_L33t posted:Instead the focus should be on sending the message that skin tone, like any other aspect of their appearance, does not define them or limit their options unless they choose to let it. Maybe that isn't always true but it's the most positive way to respond to the problem I can think of without falling into the trap of essentialism. Ah, yes, it all boils down to personal individual choice. Why examine systems of white supremacy or cultural hegemony at all. Just clap your hands and believe hard enough and you too can be a star. After all, women are not defined or limited by their gender in our society, just as gay men are not defined or limited by their sexuality and muslims are not defined or limited by their religion. We can all just delete prejudice from our experience by ignoring it and refusing to confront it, capitulating where possible so that everyone can just get along in perfect harmony. Or perhaps it would be better to actually acknowledge that those problems exist and that bleaching one's skin or straightening one's hair (or trying to otherwise "pass" for white and western to appease the prejudiced) is not a good solution. Liberal_L33t posted:I feel like it's worth mentioning that Ghana, the country that made headlines for ordering an outright ban of skin-lightening ointments, is also a country that as of a few years ago started calling upon the citizens to inform on any neighbors or tenants they suspected of being gay so that they could be rounded up and arrested. Ethnic nationalism, including non-white ethnic nationalism, has a strong tendency to be correlated with horribly regressive attitudes. So yes, I would say that we can acknowledge that the tendency for these young people to think they need skin lightening is unfortunate, but their fellow citizens that go berserk in response have some very ugly attitudes themselves. In the case of Ghana, as well as many other black majority developing nations, I tend to think religion, toxic masculinity and the risk of AIDS has a lot more to do with homophobic attitudes than banning skin bleaching does. TomViolence fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 07:54
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Liberal_L33t posted:Yes. I realize that isn't a popular position to take. But I do in fact believe that the homogenizing power of western culture and media has been a profoundly positive influence. Western, Americanized consumer culture gets a lot of criticism for spreading all over the world, I think a little perspective and careful consideration of the alternatives put the lie to that. The (Bleached) White Man's Burden
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Sep 27, 2016 08:50
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Condiv posted:i had no idea that there was this kind of.... gradient. i didn't realize you would be treated worse the blacker your skin got, even by your own race It's called Colorism and it's very common.
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Sep 27, 2016 09:06
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wyldhoney posted:Dark Aunt Viv on the Fresh Prince was replaced by light Aunt Viv. that was because the actress was a nightmare to work with
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Sep 27, 2016 10:00
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Condiv posted:i had no idea that there was this kind of.... gradient. i didn't realize you would be treated worse the blacker your skin got, even by your own race It's much much worse than that. A long long time ago I dated a black girl and she described some intra-family resentment because one side of her family was lighter-skinned. More in the public eye, if you remember Terrell Owens the crazy former NFL wide receiver: http://www.si.com/vault/1998/12/14/...mains-on-a-roll quote:Other blacks with skin lighter than his called him Purple Pal Light-skin/Dark-skin resentment is a real real thing most white people have no idea about.
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Sep 27, 2016 10:18
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It's even a thing in the UK. While we had our own particular brand of nastiness when it came to slavery, I always thought the whole house negro/field negro thing was an American thing but it's not.
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Sep 27, 2016 12:27
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TomViolence posted:In the case of Ghana, as well as many other black majority developing nations, I tend to think religion, toxic masculinity and the risk of AIDS has a lot more to do with homophobic attitudes than banning skin bleaching does. To expand on this it is also due to 'civilising missions' by various western missionaries and religious organizations supporting and stoking the fire of these kind of policies and social practices, as well as the politicians that make them. So yeah the history of hegemony is bleak and full of exploitation. But no lets get more hegemony because all societies have until now lived in a vacuums and they need the god sent revelations of western liberalism. And before l33t says it social tolerance and compassion are not a unique aspects that were born of liberalism. It also does not naturally lead to such things as l33t is wont to imply.
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Oct 1, 2016 11:02
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Whorelord posted:that was because the actress was a nightmare to work with Still doesn't negate the fact that they replaced her with a lighter skinned version. The people that didn't know about colourism are oblivious to the nasty legacy of slavery and white supremacy. When looking more or less white kept you more or less safe, it was a goal for mothers to lighten up the family tree so that their children would be better off. Here in the Caribbean you are graded on your beauty by how many European features you possess. My hair is 'nice' and 'good' because it falls downward and curls up into ringlets, not like the 'negre' hair (negre is said like an offensive epithet) which is unruly and 'unkempt'. And for the person who was suggesting that skin bleaching is cool and good and assimilation should be encouraged, you're a fuckhead, no two ways about it.
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Oct 1, 2016 11:16
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White people don't understand that their ancestors literally didn't see our ancestors as human. The question of whether the negro could even feel pain as acutely as the civilized races was a matter of debate well into the 20th century. The more similar we look to you the easier it is for our features to resolve as human faces in your eyes, so you stop thinking of us as mindless beasts.
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Oct 1, 2016 15:32
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Colorism is definitely prevalent in African American society. Hence stuff about people having pretty green or blue eyes, etc or stuff about nappy or kinky hair.
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Oct 1, 2016 15:55
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I think that there are effectively two-three situations here: bleaching can be either done in an effort to advance socially (whether due to post-colonial history, like the Caribbean example, or not, as in India), or it can be mostly a fashion (as it seems to be in Japan). So, honestly, I think that the sanest response to this is the standard one: any systemic discrimination in schools, workplaces and whatnot should be dealt with by legislation. Cultural issues are best dealt with by setting new cultural norms. But in the meantime, people will probably continue to bleach, so those bleaching cosmetics should probably be allowed on the open market, where they are at least subject to safety oversight. And going back to you, OP, I think that the best way for you to do these talks might be also also to focus on health and safety. As in, "if you want to do it, do it the safe way that won't leave you with skin cancer twenty years down the road: here is a list of reliable cosmetics without mercury" (e: if bad cosmetics are a problem in Jamaica, obviously). Discuss more and less reversible methods. Discuss why people have melanin at all - the biology of it. Treat it as you would the sex talk, perhaps? meristem fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 16:13
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If it's OK for a woman to transition into a man, why is it not OK for a black person to transition into a white person? What would the arguments be if you could take a course of drugs to change your skin colour from black to white or vice versa?
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Oct 1, 2016 17:31
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Jeza posted:If it's OK for a woman to transition into a man, why is it not OK for a black person to transition into a white person? What would the arguments be if you could take a course of drugs to change your skin colour from black to white or vice versa? Just close the can again, you know this is an asinine question.
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Oct 1, 2016 17:39
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Why is it wrong for a white man to use make up or face paint to transition into a more virile black man?
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Oct 1, 2016 17:39
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