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Ka0
Sep 16, 2002

:siren: :siren: :siren:
AS A PROUD GAMERGATER THE ONLY THING I HATE MORE THAN WOMEN ARE GAYS AND TRANS PEOPLE
:siren: :siren: :siren:
Why is everyone calling the gusion city's robot nippers "giant claws".

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Bloody Pom
Jun 5, 2011



Yeah, they're clearly God Hands. :v:

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~

GimmickMan posted:

I know people wish Shinn was the real protagonist and Kira hadn't come to ruin his party but let's not pretend GSD was ever good.

I dropped Destiny after about 18 episodes out of boredom, but while all those things about Destiny's first 11 episodes are true (and personally I'd say it good stretch lasts till 13, including Kira's re-emergence) Neo hadn't done much, even if his identity was pretty obvious, Cagalli's character was thought to be struggling as part of an arc rather than failing with no real end and the insert songs don't really count as a negative or a positive - they're just a thing that is. More importantly, I don't have to imagine people thought it was good, I can go back and read the Destiny thread from when it was airing, and people here generally liked those early episodes from what I recall after re-reading the thread's early pages a year or so ago. And while it did have all those things, it also had some good action and fights when the Minerva crew fight Phantom Pain around an asteroid for instance, a focus on Athrun, who many liked over Kira and thought might have something good come of said focus, the crew of the Minerva working together in fights even if Athrun and Shinn clashed at times and other things people generally favored.

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011

See, I had a really hard time buying that Cagalli was even the same character from the beginning, because she was always hotheaded and stubborn but I guess I can see how people would think she was just going through an arc. That's a fair disagreement.

Let me talk a little more about the thing you didn't address: While ZAFT being on the receiving end of a hijack was a nice parallel with the beginning of GS, the designs of Abyss, Gaia, and Chaos break the show's internal consistency. Not only are they obviously inspired by anti-coordinator machines, they might as well be named Evil Antagonist Machines 01, 02 and Gaia. Speaking of which, you'd think the Earth Federation would be the ones to name their Gundam "Earth", rather than the people who live in space, but I figure we're not supposed to think too much about the MS that transforms into a dog instead of something with flight capability. I honestly don't get how I'm supposed to believe this is a thing that could happen in-universe, not even as a hint that Durandal was a shady guy. Azrael was a cackling psychopath and I can see him wanting to call three MS's Calamity, Forbidden and Raider. Durandal was subtler than that and cared about manipulating public opinion.

So let's bring this back to IBO. So far the worst thing I can say about it is that Kudelia is still a very bad case of us being told she's competent offscreen rather than seeing for ourselves her competence at play. Everything happening in-universe so far feels like a reasonable consequence of what happened in S1. Yeah, there's one person who probably should be dead yet lives, but their mobile suit didn't get reduced to star dust onscreen so it's... Closer to acceptable. Besides, we need someone who can oppose McGillis competently and hopefully humanize him a little bit more. Gali Gali is the best candidate for that. The returning characters are still themselves. The tech and MS design are still the same from S1. I don't have high hopes for IBO S2, but it's at least consistent with itself so far, including Kudelia's problem.

I'd love it if IBO could break from the Sunrise second season curse, because S1 did some really interesting things and I think IBO gets an unjust bad reputation from Gundam fans who think there isn't enough combat. So far it looks like they still want it to be a character-centric series and that gives me a little bit of hope that the show will live up to its potential by the end.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

GimmickMan posted:

See, I had a really hard time buying that Cagalli was even the same character from the beginning, because she was always hotheaded and stubborn but I guess I can see how people would think she was just going through an arc. That's a fair disagreement.

Let me talk a little more about the thing you didn't address: While ZAFT being on the receiving end of a hijack was a nice parallel with the beginning of GS, the designs of Abyss, Gaia, and Chaos break the show's internal consistency. Not only are they obviously inspired by anti-coordinator machines, they might as well be named Evil Antagonist Machines 01, 02 and Gaia. Speaking of which, you'd think the Earth Federation would be the ones to name their Gundam "Earth", rather than the people who live in space, but I figure we're not supposed to think too much about the MS that transforms into a dog instead of something with flight capability. I honestly don't get how I'm supposed to believe this is a thing that could happen in-universe, not even as a hint that Durandal was a shady guy. Azrael was a cackling psychopath and I can see him wanting to call three MS's Calamity, Forbidden and Raider. Durandal was subtler than that and cared about manipulating public opinion.

So let's bring this back to IBO. So far the worst thing I can say about it is that Kudelia is still a very bad case of us being told she's competent offscreen rather than seeing for ourselves her competence at play. Everything happening in-universe so far feels like a reasonable consequence of what happened in S1. Yeah, there's one person who probably should be dead yet lives, but their mobile suit didn't get reduced to star dust onscreen so it's... Closer to acceptable. Besides, we need someone who can oppose McGillis competently and hopefully humanize him a little bit more. Gali Gali is the best candidate for that. The returning characters are still themselves. The tech and MS design are still the same from S1. I don't have high hopes for IBO S2, but it's at least consistent with itself so far, including Kudelia's problem.

I'd love it if IBO could break from the Sunrise second season curse, because S1 did some really interesting things and I think IBO gets an unjust bad reputation from Gundam fans who think there isn't enough combat. So far it looks like they still want it to be a character-centric series and that gives me a little bit of hope that the show will live up to its potential by the end.

Remember that McGillis was diving into a Gjallarhorn stronghold to kill one of his fellow Seven Stars heirs, and only took on Gaelio once there were no Gjallarhorn witnesses around. It's totally plausible that he wouldn't stick around to confirm the kill after taking out the Kimaris - yes, it could have massively hosed him and his plans over (and did) if his old buddy survived, but his decision makes sense for his particular blend of caution and arrogance.

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011

Darth Walrus posted:

Remember that McGillis was diving into a Gjallarhorn stronghold to kill one of his fellow Seven Stars heirs, and only took on Gaelio once there were no Gjallarhorn witnesses around. It's totally plausible that he wouldn't stick around to confirm the kill after taking out the Kimaris - yes, it could have massively hosed him and his plans over (and did) if his old buddy survived, but his decision makes sense for his particular blend of caution and arrogance.

It is not a problem of consistency in-universe but of consistent writing tone. One of the issues with the ending of S1 is that it lacked bite and a whole lot of people who supposedly died were actually fine. Having another survivor continues to undermine the show's gruesome treatment of the lethality of combat, which was always one of its strongest points. I'm a lot more okay with Cyborg Gaelio than with, say, Shino still being around. Other than the tone thing, it makes enough sense I can buy it, and I can see myself liking what Mecha-Gali adds to the show.

Guy Goodbody
Aug 31, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo

GimmickMan posted:

So let's bring this back to IBO. So far the worst thing I can say about it is that Kudelia is still a very bad case of us being told she's competent offscreen rather than seeing for ourselves her competence at play.

The establishment of the orphanage at and expansion of Sakura farm is directly connected to Kudelia securing favorable export rates for half-metal.

gyrobot
Nov 16, 2011

Guy Goodbody posted:

The establishment of the orphanage at and expansion of Sakura farm is directly connected to Kudelia securing favorable export rates for half-metal.

And how was she able to survive while Gjallarhorn routinely executes people who clamor for economic rights? Without Mika she is just another idealist waiting to be shot

Guy Goodbody
Aug 31, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo

gyrobot posted:

And how was she able to survive while Gjallarhorn routinely executes people who clamor for economic rights? Without Mika she is just another idealist waiting to be shot

Well, yeah? That was the entire plot of the first season, Kudelia hired Tekkadan to protect her from Gjallarhorn.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

Guy Goodbody posted:

Well, yeah? That was the entire plot of the first season, Kudelia hired Tekkadan to protect her from Gjallarhorn.

It's also kind of pointless for them to go after her now. A lot of their corruption has been exposed and they have a lost a lot of power and reputation, plus there is no real benefit if they attack her now.

Gjallarhorn's biggest problem right now however despite a clean up of some corruption is rivalries among the branches of it. Which is best shown by the current situation.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009
She's also not an enemy of McGillis, so why would the Gjallarhorn he now leads go after her?

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013

Grimey Drawer
I am excited to see what happens when Julieta and Mikazuki fight.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

Lemon-Lime posted:

She's also not an enemy of McGillis, so why would the Gjallarhorn he now leads go after her?

Mcgillis is not the leader of Gjallarhorn just one of it's heads. But yeah this is also correct. Iznario was the one who was trying to kill Kudelia.

AnoHito
May 8, 2014

I think we all know who really leads Gjallarhorn now. Even if they don't realize it yet.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



AnoHito posted:

I think we all know who really leads Gjallarhorn now. Even if they don't realize it yet.

Eugene?

Gridlocked
Aug 2, 2014

MR. STUPID MORON
WITH AN UGLY FACE
AND A BIG BUTT
AND HIS BUTT SMELLS
AND HE LIKES TO KISS
HIS OWN BUTT
by Roger Hargreaves

Tae posted:

SEED Destiny didn't really poo poo the bed until episode 11, fair warning.

SEED Destiny poo poo the bed in like episode 3 because it was the same strategy of stock footage as SEED and that was loving annoying.

anglachel
May 28, 2012

Raxivace posted:

Do we have any confirmation that Season 2 is the end of IBO? Perhaps we'll get the mythical third season of a Gundam show after this...

Isn't IBO not super popular in Japan, (mediocre ratings and the models don't sell super well) and only got renewed because it was the first Gundam in a awhile to be well received in the West? That doesn't seem to be a formula for a 3rd season...

Srice
Sep 11, 2011

anglachel posted:

Isn't IBO not super popular in Japan, (mediocre ratings and the models don't sell super well) and only got renewed because it was the first Gundam in a awhile to be well received in the West? That doesn't seem to be a formula for a 3rd season...

The show comes across like something they had always planned a split season for.

Droyer
Oct 9, 2012

anglachel posted:

Isn't IBO not super popular in Japan

I've seen a lot of people say stuff like this for a lot of shows, but never seen what actually backs up that assertion. What are you basing this on?

anglachel
May 28, 2012

Droyer posted:

I've seen a lot of people say stuff like this for a lot of shows, but never seen what actually backs up that assertion. What are you basing this on?

I have no primary sources, but the fact that they had the premiere in an AMERICAN convention is a big flag that they are aiming it at the Worldwide audience.

There's lots of rumours that the Models are not popular and only Barbatos really sells. (which is a big deal)

And there are complaints with Japanese PTA groups (which i understand have a lot of sway in Japan) against the show as well.

Sales of the DVD's in Japan also don't seem super great. Overall based on secondary sources it seems like the show is doing okay, but not what you would expect from a mega anime franchise like Gundam that is supposed to reach beyond the normal Otaku crowd that most anime panders too these days. And not hitting projected metrics is the kiss of death for alot of projects. Especially the anime industry which makes so much money on secondary stuff like models, and DVD sales.

Srice posted:

The show comes across like something they had always planned a split season for.

I got the vibe that they set it up that if they needed to end it season 1 they could, but also planted seeds to make a second season. I mean they could have just upped the body count in the last couple of episodes, and ended it in a similar way, maybe with Mika or Orga dying and kept it mostly the same and had a decent ending for the series. Not everything needs to get wrapped up.

anglachel fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Oct 19, 2016

Srice
Sep 11, 2011

If they ended on season 1 it'd be an unfulfilling as heck ending. Lots of character arcs left unfinished and a villain talking about how things went according to plan? There's no meat in that!

Srice
Sep 11, 2011

They had premiere eps in Japan events too, it was just overshadowed by the news about the American con since it'd be in english.

anglachel
May 28, 2012

Srice posted:

If they ended on season 1 it'd be an unfulfilling as heck ending. Lots of character arcs left unfinished and a villain talking about how things went according to plan? There's no meat in that!

What character arcs? Mika or Orga character arcs end with one of them dying and the others transformation from that. They could have handled that in the last few episodes if they wanted too.

McGillis "getting away" with it, would have been also okay, because he was at the end of the story not a direct antagonist towards the main characters.

They could have easily changed things in the last 3 episodes to make it a bittersweet ending, that would have been true to tones of a show that features child soldiers and all that entails as it's protagonists.

Droyer
Oct 9, 2012

anglachel posted:

I have no primary sources, but the fact that they had the premiere in an AMERICAN convention is a big flag that they are aiming it at the Worldwide audience.

This is a half-truth. They had the premiere in america yes, but also at 5 different places in japan, as well as hong kong, taiwan and thailand. This narrative some people seem to have that they're ignoring the asian market is not true.

Srice
Sep 11, 2011

They could have done those things, but we got what we did because they planned on that second season. If they truly meant to restrict it to a single season but were extended, the production would likely have looked way messier (easy example, Geass had its last few eps of season 1 delayed for months to change their plans).

The pacing of the earlier episodes makes more sense to me when considering a 50 episode run, such as the amount of eps they spent on the Brewers.

Guy Goodbody
Aug 31, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo

anglachel posted:

And there are complaints with Japanese PTA groups (which i understand have a lot of sway in Japan) against the show as well.

are there really? I know there was one letter to a newspaper complaining about Mika executing a dude early on, is that what you're talking about?

Guy Goodbody
Aug 31, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo
I have been confidently told by people on the internet that G-Reco models didn't sell well, except for G-Self, Build Fighters Try models din't sell well, except for the Build Burning, and now IBO models didn't sell well, except for the Barbatos.

Maybe Bandai needs to lower their sales expectations for side character models!

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."
What happened to mika's right arm? I've been noticing it (and what posters mentioned about it) but can't remember why it was injured to begin with.

jackhunter64
Aug 28, 2008

Keep it up son, take a look at what you could have won


Kingtheninja posted:

What happened to mika's right arm? I've been noticing it (and what posters mentioned about it) but can't remember why it was injured to begin with.

He basically gave himself a stroke by going full-throttle with the Barbatos's AV system in the first series finale. His right eye is also knackered and only works when he's plugged into Barbatos.

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."
Ah okay, that explains the OP shot of him on the ground.

anglachel
May 28, 2012

Guy Goodbody posted:

I have been confidently told by people on the internet that G-Reco models didn't sell well, except for G-Self, Build Fighters Try models din't sell well, except for the Build Burning, and now IBO models didn't sell well, except for the Barbatos.

Maybe Bandai needs to lower their sales expectations for side character models!

This is the correct answer. But I would say it's probably true of every media these days. Everything that is genre has to take the world by storm or it's an abject failure it feels like.

jackhunter64 posted:

He basically gave himself a stroke by going full-throttle with the Barbatos's AV system in the first series finale. His right eye is also knackered and only works when he's plugged into Barbatos.

It might be less a stroke and more that his nervous system and brain are now so fully integrated into Barbatos they don't work properly except when wired in. (as a stroke from what I understand actually fries part of your brain, where as they work perfectly when he's plugged in) Though that's probably a oranges vs tangerines argument.

Ka0
Sep 16, 2002

:siren: :siren: :siren:
AS A PROUD GAMERGATER THE ONLY THING I HATE MORE THAN WOMEN ARE GAYS AND TRANS PEOPLE
:siren: :siren: :siren:
When people say "didn't sell well" what is the contrast, compared to what didn't it sell well?

AnoHito
May 8, 2014

Ka0 posted:

When people say "didn't sell well" what is the contrast, compared to what didn't it sell well?

Looking at it, it's only really when compared to other Gundam series. When compared to your average anime, it sold above average, but Gundam is kind of supposed to be a big money franchise, so I guess maybe it's a bit of a disappointment? Either way, the series has/will almost certainly made money, just maybe not as much as they would like. Also note that I'm pretty sure there's no real way to check things like model sales (a pretty important aspect of a show like this) other than "some guys on the internet said X," which as we all know is just an infallible method of getting good intel :v:

anglachel
May 28, 2012

Ka0 posted:

When people say "didn't sell well" what is the contrast, compared to what didn't it sell well?

I guess the analogy would be that Gundam is the Star Wars of Japan. So the expectations for it aren't "make it's money back and a tidy profit". The expectations are "is a mega blockbuster".

AnoHito posted:

Also note that I'm pretty sure there's no real way to check things like model sales (a pretty important aspect of a show like this) other than "some guys on the internet said X," which as we all know is just an infallible method of getting good intel :v:

You can probably track down hard numbers in investors meetings and what have you about overall models sold. But they almost certainly don't go into "This one sold X or Y" in those kind of things other than maybe to report some kind of record breaking whatever. In America you can usually just ask the distributor and they will tell you what things are hot or not, and even if they don't tell you. You can still tell which things are flagging by the offered discounts. If a distributor offers discounts on stuff it means they have product not moving in their warehouses that they need gone. Whether it works this way in Japan I have no idea.

anglachel fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Oct 20, 2016

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



AnoHito posted:

Looking at it, it's only really when compared to other Gundam series. When compared to your average anime, it sold above average, but Gundam is kind of supposed to be a big money franchise, so I guess maybe it's a bit of a disappointment? Either way, the series has/will almost certainly made money, just maybe not as much as they would like. Also note that I'm pretty sure there's no real way to check things like model sales (a pretty important aspect of a show like this) other than "some guys on the internet said X," which as we all know is just an infallible method of getting good intel :v:

If I understand correctly (which I might not), Gundam in general isn't that huge a DVD seller. It's a big deal as a series, but it's more steady than a chart topper for most of the individual entities.

I mean, Age and X wrapped up earlier than initially intended due to not getting good ratings. G-Reco only got 26 episodes. Seed made a ton of money, but apparently it was more an exception than the rule.

Iron Blooded Orphans getting a second season seems to be a vote of confidence, all in all.

And this latest episode delivered one of the best fight scenes in Gundam I can think of, so that paid off. It balanced the cast so that, while Mikazuki was just an endless storm of murder, everyone else got moments, there was push and pull between the two sides, even if the winner was never in doubt, you had considerations of strategy and ammunition rather than just spamming beams...

It pretty much felt like it laid down how larger combat works in the setting, while being interesting in its own right.

Just hope the show can keep up the momentum.

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!
Iirc seed was the first series that was a huge hit outside of model kits because it hit an untapped market of female audience, which led to gundam 00 characters being designed by a popular female-popular artist that did loveless.

BizarroAzrael
Apr 6, 2006

"That must weigh heavily on your soul. Let me purge it for you."
Was there nothing between SEED/Destiny and 00? 00 was my first Gundam series but I'm sure SEED seemed long ago at that point. Maybe I was confusing it with Wing.

Srice
Sep 11, 2011

BizarroAzrael posted:

Was there nothing between SEED/Destiny and 00? 00 was my first Gundam series but I'm sure SEED seemed long ago at that point. Maybe I was confusing it with Wing.

There were some OVAs but at that point they went 2 years between those shows.

Feels like with IBO they're continuing the more recent trend of having at least one Gundam show if not more on tv each year, but not running constantly.

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!
They got Code Geass as their marquee mecha show after SEED Destiny to fill the gap.

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Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014

2014 was a really weird year since you had a whopping three Gundam shows airing at once- Try, G-Reco, and Gundam-san.

That's right, I just reminded you all that Gundam-san exists.

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