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I was talking to a family member who is also a psychiatrist a few days ago. They are center-Liberal and probably biased but he was saying Psychologists should do a study on extreme right wing individuals because, in his experience, they all seem incredibly unhinged, detached from facts and reality, and unstable. He works in a mental hospital and he says almost all of his clients hold extreme right beliefs. He honestly believes conservatism is a mental illness. I think that is going a little far, I do not think conservative beliefs in of themselves are signifiers of mental illness but I cannot deny that Freeps and their ilk seem utterly insane. Nor can I refuse to acknowledge that when a right leaning individual shoots up a school, business, or planned parenthood the media often talks about his (so far it has only been men, it seems) history of mental illness and domestic abuse. Coincidentally it wouldn't be fair to exclude extreme leftists from consideration either. (Disclaimer: I am a very far left, perhaps even radical, liberal. Going so far as to register as a socialist in my voter registration.) From my observation, extreme leftists seem much less likely to go on shooting sprees but they have their own insane beliefs and conspiracy theories. Is there a relationship between extremism and mental illness? Not just a correlation, but an actual cause-and-effect relationship?
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Oct 3, 2016 03:57
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 22:00 |
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Octatonic posted:The op's uncle and the effects of poverty on health. How did you know this vague relative I mentioned but did not define was my racist uncle?!! Are you stalking me? Oh noooooo. Regarding poverty and poo poo life conditions being a factor in think this is a really solid point of consideration. It seems to me that the bulk of people on the extreme left and right come from poor or working class backgrounds. They're often also under educated and many live in lovely cities with little to no job opprotunties. But at the same time, poverty rates and quality of life are the highest for racial minorities yet the crazy extremists seem to be, for the most part, white. Sergg posted:A lot of these beliefs are fear-based and cannot be righted or corrected by talking about them but by making progress in the client's life such as retaining a romantic partner, stable employment, community involvement, social support, etc. With those kinds of developments, these beliefs tend to become more moderate. Unfortunately the beliefs themselves often have a nasty habit of socially isolating the person who believes in them. It's not always indicative of mental illness but I would say there's definitely correlation there. Psychiatrists themselves are some of the most left-wing medical professionals in the field and I think with good reason, as leftist beliefs tend to have a stronger empirical basis for them, but I doubt many psychiatrists would be interested in "revolutionary socialism" or anything stronger than Scandinavian-style liberalism. I bolded the part of your post that I want to focus on. It is that fact alone, that they can't be reasoned with or talked down, that is the most distressing to me. They are immune to facts, logic and reason. Most psychological help comes in the form of counseling and therapy and many therapists are taught and trained to question and challenge absolutist, extreme, or black-and-white thinking. While I was studying Psychology in college we discussed how talking and debating people with different beliefs rarely brings them around but instead actually intensifies their own beliefs. So trying to treat this issue with traditional/conventional mental health care approaches might not work. Can we actually help these people? Short of improving their life situations, as stated in the quoted post, there doesn't seem to be much to do to bring them around. And while social isolation is still a factor/consequence of extreme belief I feel its effect has been significantly mitigated with the onset on the Internet. Now extreme left and right wing people can find many forums full of hundreds to thousands of users who share their beliefs or hold even more extreme ones. This confirms their beliefs and can even drive them to become even more extreme. And there is a whole political campaign in the United States right now that has swept up and incensed this group. I had a friend from college, we never really talked about politics or religion but she was a nice, friendly, and caring person as far as I could tell. We met because she helped me carry a heavy bin of clothes into my dorm room while dozens of other people just walked past me. The whole time I knew her she gave me the impression that she was just a good person. We became Facebook friends and kept kinda sorta in touch after I moved states. For the past few months she has been spamming her Facebook with emphatic pleas to vote Trump and support Trump. Reblogging and sharing news posts from Fox News, Drudge, and such. Going on long diatribes about how illegal immigrants are ruining this country (with lots of racist statements laced throughout,) how all Muslims are terrorists and hate America and railing on about Benghazi and Emails. I was completely broadsided, this poo poo came out of nowhere. Fool that I was in tried engaging her, to talk her down off the building. I sourced my arguments, I linked to Politifact and to news articles from NPR and the New York Times. I made sure not to link to MSNBC, DailyKOS, or Huffington Post (all of them have liberal bias AFAIK) and also did not link to CNN because she had, in previous posts, called it the Clinton News Network (even though CNN has a conservative bias AFAIK.) Her response was to tell me the media was controlled by Hillary Clinton and that not only did my facts not matter but that I didn't have the facts. I quickly blocked her and disengaged. But I'm devastated. I did not see any of this when I knew her. Was she always this crazy and just hid it well or did something snap? I feel like I've lost a friend and there is nothing I can do to bring her back. Most curiously she doesn't really seem to fit the usual group. By her own admission her family life was relatively comfortable and she was middle class. (Though a lot of working class people think themselves middle class when they're not so  ) She has not sunk so far into the madness yet to start believing that Obama is a Muslim or not a real American citizen or that Michele is a trans woman and their children are kidnapped, etc but she is probably heading in that direction.  And data says this is a reaction to fear? What are they afraid of? Can you link to some of these articles and findings for me?
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Oct 3, 2016 12:33
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Is America in 2016 the only true sane center that you can't be left or right of without being mentally ill or is it a sliding thing? Where whatever country and whatever local condition you are in you need to agree with it by a large margin or be a deviant? There is nothing wrong with left or right leaning political affiliation. The problem is EXTREME left or right wing political affiliation. And I know the definition of extreme can be extremely subjective. But for the purposes of this thread I am defining extremism as: People who's political beliefs (and their subsequent defense of those beliefs) are propped up by conspiracy theories and paranoia. This is probably an incredibly lovely definition that can be critiqued and picked apart but I honestly think a political belief does not become a problem (even if I really disagree with it) until the person is spouting paranoid accusations and believing conspiracy theories. Mercury_Storm posted:In some cases yeah, but it has to be handled very, very carefully or you end up reinforcing their beliefs like you stated. Here's a book that details the process and lists a lot of pitfalls that can make things worse: Thank you for this. The Kingfish posted:Are you that guy who is really into abolition? Like really into it? If yes, consider therapy. I agree that, at the time, abolition was an extreme left position. However, AFAIK, it was not supported by conspiracy theories and paranoia. (I might be wrong?) HorseLord posted:This is incoherent. How can you be a "far left radical" believer of the milquetoast center right ideology, liberalism? It makes no sense and makes me think you don't know what words mean - liberalism and socialism are opposed. If Liberalism and socialism are opposed then why is almost every liberal politician called a socialist by the Right? It is definitely true that I don't understand how this poo poo works. I am a liberal because I am pro-choice, pro-union, pro-taxes (especially on the rich), etc. I consider myself a socialist because apparently being pro-medicare/social security/welfare/food stamps/housing assistance/etc makes you a socialist. (Bring on class warfare!) I don't understand it either but woke wedding drone posted:The history of psychiatry is rooted in society's impetus to control others, and was created in a time when cruelty as a part of that control was seen as necessary and acceptable. The only reason cruelty (which all far-right adherents believe in) is not classified as a mental illness in itself is because of this white male legacy of power and control. Cruelty is just inherent in human nature and sometimes decent society just does not have the manpower/resources to stop it. Letting it happen (especially because you are powerless to stop it) does not make you cruel, WANTING it to happen, helping it along, and arguing that it SHOULD happen because Reasons makes you cruel. But I wouldn't go so far as to say cruelty is a mental illness. A cruel person is definitely a loving rear end in a top hat, but they might not be mentally ill. Periodiko posted:There are plenty of examples of extreme US politics that were community driven, that were "normal" for particular groups/subcultures, yet were extreme enough to lead to violence by or against. If you look at something like the KKK, it seems really strange to view that as the expression of the "mental illness" of a mass of individuals rather than an authentic cultural movement. At the other pole, it's just bizarre to look at something like anti-Vietnam protesting or abolitionism or black nationalism as an expression of the biology of individuals rather than a social reaction to circumstances. I agree, there have been times when America (often as a reaction to fear) has been swept up and embraced extremist philosophy. McCarthyism, for instance. We are not immune to the allure of extremism. There were quite a few very paranoid beliefs behind the reins of the KKK and Black Nationalism. I'm biased so I believe the Black Nationalists paranoia was largely proved legitimate while the KKK's paranoia was racist and stupid. As far as anti-Vietnam protestors or abolitionists, I don't know much about what spurred those movements beyond the basics. - Anti-Vietnam people believed the war was too expensive financially and in the price of lives. They felt that killing a bunch of people (our own people and their people) in a conflict we weren't winning and possibly couldn't ever win was stupid. - Abolitionists believed slavery was wrong (for many reasons) and that slaves should be free. Neither of these basic beliefs seem to be conspiracy theories or paranoia, I'd have to look deeper. And I don't think we should consider morality and social consciousness a mental illness. But we should probably consider people who are moralistic and/or socially conscious who believe in conspiracy theories and are paranoid mentally ill. WrenP-Complete posted:Hi Jenner! Nice to see you in D&D. THIS LOOKS BIASED.  (This is a joke.)
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Oct 4, 2016 04:30
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Einbauschrank posted:I'd agree that mental cases are overrepresented in the extreme political spectrum, but would not support the claim that every extremist is a clinical nutcase. Like I said, to treat any inclination of left or right belief as a sign of mental illness would be completely unacceptable. Even far right and far left adherents can usually be tolerated. It's when they go off the deep end and start believing all kinds of craziness that they need intervention and help. I can tolerate supply side economists and pro-austerity types. I will disagree vehemently and point out how their beliefs and philosophies are completely up their own rear end and an affront to economics but these people are not crazy. They're just conservatives. Hell I can even listen to Randian Objectivists talk in circles for awhile before I have to walk away and weep inconsolably at the existence of such idiocy. But when someone is screaming that Obama is a secret socialist Kenya-born Muslim I get genuinely worried about them. I had a friend who was a 9/11 Truther, he just could not accept that anyone could have pulled off the attacks without inside help. He went on and on about all the "facts" and I was really worried about him. I encouraged him to get therapy and he severed from me. I hope he's doing okay now. NikkolasKing posted:I support some groups the media keep calling the "Far Right." I have a deep attachment to authoritarian idealism and a desire to be swept up in some sort of movement that gives my life purpose. People I know say I'm extreme in some of my political views. Sup fellow poverty-stricken and disabled Goon. This isn't E/N but, while you have a right to have your beliefs and are definitely entitled to them, you might want to  especially since you admitted to having some paranoia. (At least you're even self-aware enough to be conscious of it, many people aren't.) Even if we disregard your Far Right beliefs your poverty and living in Detroitness (lovely living conditions) have a huge link to mental illness so you might want to do a bit of self-care just to be on the safe side.
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Oct 4, 2016 12:56
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quote:Critique of my definition. I knew it was gonna be crap.  I just can't really think of a way to really express/define when a political belief crosses the line into batshit. It's very subjective and I am incredibly biased. I don't want to get too off topic by trying to come up with a standard but maybe it's a worthwhile exercise to do so. But, I mean, people with extreme philosophies seem crazy, right? quote:Your psychiatrist relative saw mostly conservative people because they were paranoid and anxious and paranoia and anxiety usually pushes one towards conservatism. So they are exreme conservatives because they are mentally ill? Oh dear. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with this conclusion. I'm mentally ill, is my mental illness responsible for my Far Left liberalism? I'm not paranoid but I do have the occasional anxiety. Mental illness and extreme beliefs are an ouroboros! It's interesting because traditional Liberalism has kinda been pushed to the center right (note: may not be a factual statement this is my perception.) So in theory it might be easier for someone to fall into the parameters of far/extreme leftism just by the nature of where traditional liberalism lies. Yet far/extreme leftists don't really seem to be particularly visible/vocal or have a lot of presence or influence in the Democratic party. Compare that to the Republican party which seems to be pushing more and more right over the years. Republicans who lose their office are criticised for not being right enough and center-leaning and moderate Republicans are being driven out of the party. (Again, my perception) The extreme right conservatives appear to be very visible and very loud and have a huge presence and influence in the Republican party. Which seems to have embraced and begun attempting to normalize extremism. (Note: Still my perception. I am a biased piece of poo poo.) Since it's being normalized and "accepted", does that mean it's not crazy? If all of China and India believed the fluoride = Mind control conspiracy does that mean it's not crazy anymore? (does India and China even put fluoride in their drinking water?)
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Oct 4, 2016 19:11
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:The psychologist Bob Altemeyer did a series of studies on personality traits common to conservatives, which are summed up under the variable right-wing authoritarianism. That article gives a good overview but Altemeyer's book is interesting too, and free to download. Thank you for this. I'll be reading through this book soon. So hey, guys. This is not the thread to call people you politically disagree with and who are, in your opinion, wanting to do really stupid and irresponsible things mentally ill. To me, Mike Pence wanting to make women have funerals for their miscarriages was completely stupid, but I don't think he is insane. The multitudes of conservative-leaning folks who want to institute a flat tax have absolutely no concept of economics or a fair spread of burden but I'm willing to believe most of them are not mentally ill. Brexit has been brought up. Proponents of Brexit largely championed the message that being in the EU meant that SCARY FOREIGNERS would come flooding into the UK and that there would be no way to stop them. This message of fear really resonated with a lot of people and, for better or for worse, was successful. We could talk for pages upon pages about Brexit and its merits and flaws but I think we already have a thread for that so please take it over there. But what we can take from Brexit into this thread is that politicians from all leanings will often employ the tactic of blaming all the problems in the system on a minority. Right now Donald Trump has about 40-50% of America believing that illegal immigrants and foreigners are the main reason why their their cities and schools are failing, their jobs are leaving, and their lives are so hard. And this tactic works. Is bigotry a mental illness? I wouldn't say so. But it's definitely loving terrible. But the irrationality and illogicalness that often comes with far left and far right beliefs? I think it toes the line. Obviously a mental illness, no matter how bothersome, is not considered a problem until it starts to interfere with the individuals life and functioning. So many of these batshit extremists are fully able to continue going along their merry way because they often surround themselves with other like-minded people and are so insulated from consequence that they are able to just shrug off or rationalize away any effect on their lives. So I guess since crazy people with extreme beliefs are largely unaffected by their craziness it's not a mental illness? Excellent thread guys! Thanks for participating. (No but seriously we should keep talking about this.)
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Oct 8, 2016 15:07
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 22:00 |
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Extreme0 posted:Hmmm...You don't want people to be called mentally ill because of having a different political opinion and yet you think otherwise with the far-left/right? Quite hypocritical there. I feel that people who have dissenting opinions from mine are, for the most part, sane. But that once they sink into the irrational and illogical beliefs (very subjective) they might be playing with fire. For example, being all gung-ho for eugenics is super loving terrible but not crazy. quote:Who said I stop at undesirables? And I would watch the world burn in a massive nonstop fire. It be the biggest bonfire ever. Mass destruction is bad and eugenics is bad. These are bad things you are espousing. Please stop and reevaluate your beliefs. If the human population suddenly had a multi-generational surge of babies being born with severe mental and/or physical disabilities then some form of mitigation might be necessary after, like, hundreds of years of that happening. Because we would not be able to maintain the healthy working population to pay into the social systems to support them. But even then, that would be incredibly extreme. At this point in time and history where the disabled are a not born in huge numbers and remain a minority in the population a support of eugenics is, IMHO, utterly obscene. Dead Cosmonaut posted:Calling Hitler insane is bad in the same sense of calling serial killers that: it absolves of them of the responsibly of having made any conscious decisions that were horrible. This is very true and very important. The poster quoted below put it best. Believing and/or doing really lovely and evil things does not make you crazy but sometimes people who believe and/or do really evil and lovely things are crazy. Determining "just an rear end in a top hat" from "mouth frothing basket case" is best left to the professionals. But I personally think it's safe to assume that if a person believes fluoride lets the government mind control you, chem trails, that the government is run by the Illuminati/Secret cabal of snake or lizard people and other poo poo like that they might have mental problems. Owlofcreamcheese posted:Being stupid or uneducated doesn't mean crazy. Exactly, lovely evil beliefs are not inherently crazy but crazy ones are. Samog posted:it absolutely is, you've just chosen to draw the line at "this person reblogs Fox News" instead of "this person votes Tory" People who reblog Fox News and vote Tory are not mentally ill. In fact, we need rational, logical, scientific and data-driven, fact-supported conservatism to have a balanced society and keep us filthy unwashed liberals in check before we do something stupid like create a utopian socialist welfare state. The problem is the popular brand of conservative (at least in the US) appears to be bigoted, climate change denying, warmongers. And while those beliefs are not crazy or a sign of mental illness they are unfathomably stupid. Owlofcreamcheese posted:Why shouldn't you count that? Other than some idea that mental illness is sinful or a personal weakness? And that if it is anything but super rare that that is something gone wrong or someone exaggerating the numbers. I like this. This guy gets it. There is nothing "bad" or "wrong" about being mentally ill. It definitely should not be vilified or reviled. Mentally ill people are just people who need a little more help and support than the average person. Sometimes long term, sometimes short term. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that the best way to address and combat extreme beliefs is to improve the inflicted's quality of life. Provide support, jobs, opprotunties, better wages, affordable access to physical and mental care and such. I would like to see us, as a society, starting to move in this direction. But it's really hard when conservatives have convinced roughly half the population to vote against their best interests. To be ashamed and reluctant to seek assistance and aid. And to view those who are receiving social and public assistance with resentment and hostility. People who fail to see the huge benefit to society public and social aid are and instead view it as just handouts for lazy people who should be working really sadden me. People who don't want to pay into public schools and such, for whatever reason, depress me. It is important to emphasize that people who hold really dickish beliefs are not always terrible people. Not every racist is going out committing hate crimes. Most of them just live their day to day lives in relative peace and are completely ignorant of how their political ideologies and supported candidates and legislation are completely loving over minorities and the underprivileged. Hopefully they'll come around?
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Oct 9, 2016 04:52
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