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BiohazrD posted:would you say, perhaps, that minorities just didn't know what was best for themselves? Most people don't.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:13
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boner confessor posted:he wasn't a registered member of the democratic party until just before he started his bid. despite the fact that he caucased with the dems and voted with them pretty much all of the time Now tell me about the lesson I should have learned voting for nader in 2000
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Oct 6, 2016 18:14
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King of Gulps posted:Now tell me about the lesson I should have learned voting for nader in 2000 An understanding of the nature of first past the post elections.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:14
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Rygar201 posted:Triangulation hasn't been a thing since the Clinton administration and this isn't a close election, at all. The DLC doesn't exist anymore either. That's more because it took over the party than it is that that sort of leadership no longer exists. It also doesn't mean that things like anti-poverty or pro-union laws are even being brought to the table, much less pushed past Republicans (when it was possible to do so). Until the debate, there were any polls whatsoever that showed Donald Trump winning the election, which is much, MUCH closer than I'm remotely comfortable with.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:15
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Hillary is fine on social issues. Her anti-poverty plans are all about jobs and economy and basically just neoliberal bullshit that's far less progressive than the status quo of the 90s was.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:21
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woke wedding drone posted:I have a feeling any real threat to Hillary would have gotten the same treatment, registered Democrat or not. I unironically agree with this statement, but not for the reason that you made it. Lyesh posted:The DLC doesn't exist anymore either. That's more because it took over the party than it is that that sort of leadership no longer exists. It also doesn't mean that things like anti-poverty or pro-union laws are even being brought to the table, much less pushed past Republicans (when it was possible to do so). I love seeing this claim and at the same time knowing that the Blue Dogs are mostly extinct.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:22
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Polygynous posted:what's the solution short of funding a kickstarter to bring over a tankie to tell black people about Hillary's "sudden pandering to black issues"? educate, agitate, organize 1) Educate yourself, and others, about politics, and history. Stop reducing politics to just the electoral process, which is merely the hyper-visible tip of a gigantic iceberg. Politics is not about finding the "correct" ideals to believe in and then convincing yourself that you're better than everyone else for having these ideals, and angrily defending them when they are challenged because your ego is so tied up in that political identity. Politics is about doing what is most effective to seize power. The people in power have learned this, and they only serve you the story about the noble ideals so that you don't challenge their power. Stop buying into the narratives of politicians and develop your critical faculties. Politics is also not about "keeping your hands clean". If you have to vote for a war criminal because it is strategically the best thing to do in the moment, say that you are voting for a war criminal because it is strategically the best thing to do in the moment. Do not invent some story about how that person is actually an amazing progressive hero and that's why you voted for them because you need to protect your image of yourself as a "good person" or whatever. Stop lying to yourself. Things are hosed, and the world is on a dangerous trajectory, and that won't change unless a lot of things change first. Don't be a tool. Mindless optimism only leads to being used. What you want is "pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will". 2) Understand why republicans vote republican. It's not because half of the country is "evil" as one poster posted. This is the kind of manichean and dehumanizing worldview that makes for the terrible political climate we currently see. Being all smug about how much more educated you are than them doesn't help anyone except your own sense of superiority and you feeling good about yourself. Republican voters are being lied to; yes, but also, for many working class people republican policies also represent the best they can hope for in terms of their economic interests because they are effectively taken hostage by the "job creators". We live under capitalism and under capitalism, jobs are actually a requirement for basic survival. People who have the power to create jobs have an enormous amount of power over people who are trying to survive and need these jobs, so when they say "we want to pay less taxes", the people who are terrified of not being employed comply, because their very survival is tied up to the prosperity of capitalists, and they do not see any possible alternative. The democrats' feel-good progressive policies do not, and will never, actually challenge that fundamental power dynamic which is at the core of our entire society, and this is why republicans will continue to vote republican. This is also why republican voters are against immigration: they understand that the more workers are competing for what limited number of jobs are available at any given time, the worse off they are. This makes folks for whom competition in the job market is a directly-lived experience very vulnerable to racist ideology. This is a deplorable state of affairs but it will always be true for as long as the fundamental fact of competition for jobs as a requirement for survival remains, and again, this is not something that the Democratic party will ever challenge. 3) Become involved in political work and political action. Join a local organization, join a union, join a feminist reading group, a soup kitchen, a non-profit, run for mayor, write a blog, join a union, riot in the streets, join a union, anything. Go to meetings, participate in assemblies. Build power for yourself and your community and then exert that power to push for change against existing social structures. Become someone that people trust and feel they can count on for collective action. Who you vote for in presidential elections is literally the least important thing you can do. Casting your vote every 4 years ins an infinitesimal amount of political influence compared to other things you could be doing that would affect you and other people's lives in much more direct and effective ways. Politics is not something that happens only on the TV and at at the ballot box. It happens at the workplace, in the family, at school, etc. Learn from your failures and share that experience. Help create alternate structures for people to be empowered within. Help create new progressive organizations that will become a force that career politicians will not be able to ignore, and will have to account for when they make their decisions. This is what black lives matter is doing, and it's working. This is how pipelines are being stopped. This is how people are getting the minimum wage raised to 15$. As these organizations thrive you will find that you are surrounded with more and more people who are developing a keen understanding of politics, an ability to read media critically, and are able to take matters into their own hands rather than place their faith in career politicians for their salvation. You will find that you are actually getting poo poo done and making a difference in the world, and it will feel good, and you will see the possibilities that lay ahead and understand that there is, in fact, an alternative. 4) Reluctantly vote for Hillary if it actually will make a difference in your state. Continue to hate her. No big deal. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 18:24
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Taerkar posted:I love seeing this claim and at the same time knowing that the Blue Dogs are mostly extinct. They've improved on social issues, but economic issues are still completely loving awful. Bill Clinton's welfare reform increased homelessness and extreme poverty, and all of the parts of Hillary's platform that mentions those sorts of things are about funding job training and ~job creation~.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:31
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quote:Understand why republicans vote republican What are some other reasons besides the jobs hostage situation?
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Oct 6, 2016 18:36
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haha yeah how stupid to want jobs and training who needs that stuff???
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Oct 6, 2016 18:36
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Lyesh posted:Hillary is fine on social issues. Her anti-poverty plans are all about jobs and economy and basically just neoliberal bullshit that's far less progressive than the status quo of the 90s was. Economic issues are social issues.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:38
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Lyesh posted:The DLC doesn't exist anymore either. That's more because it took over the party than it is that that sort of leadership no longer exists. It also doesn't mean that things like anti-poverty or pro-union laws are even being brought to the table, much less pushed past Republicans (when it was possible to do so). There have been attempts at passing a bill to require the NLRB to certify unions after a simpler majority card check vote for the a while. There's a five paragraph section in this year's DNC platform laying out pro union plans ranging from the above mentioned certification reform to ending Right to Work, to specific protections guaranteeing the rights of public and private employees legal right to organization and representation.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:40
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Sloppy Milkshake posted:haha yeah how stupid to want jobs and training who needs that stuff??? Those things are fine, but there are plenty of people who can't work who are just pretty much "hosed" if they don't have friends and family willing to help them. SNAP is enough to keep people from starving, but there are basically no other federal or federalish programs for someone who doesn't have kids (and even people with kids can run out of time on TANF). Section 8 in many areas has multi-year waiting lists which open for a day every year in many places. SSI is barely livable in most places, has strict asset limits that make it hard to get off of, and involves at least a year of fighting to get on in the first place (unless you're disabled in a way that's indisputable). Medicaid is completely dependant on how much power republicans have in your state. Lyesh fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 18:43
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nm misread
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Oct 6, 2016 18:44
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Bob le Moche posted:educate, agitate, organize This is at the least more useful than "don't vote" so thanks for that.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:46
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So basically the reason why she's a Neo-Liberal is because she's not advocating for making everything perfect at once. Good to know.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:47
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Bob le Moche posted:2) Understand why republicans vote republican Racism, homophobia, and misogyny
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Oct 6, 2016 18:47
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Taerkar posted:So basically the reason why she's a Neo-Liberal is because she's not advocating for making everything perfect at once. No, the reason she's a neoliberal is that she's advocating market-based solutions to poverty
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Oct 6, 2016 18:49
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Lyesh posted:No, the reason she's a neoliberal is that she's advocating market-based solutions to poverty Anything less than Full Communism Now is a Betrayal of the Revolution, comrades. Anyway, the actual platform contains the 10-20-30 plan, as well as increases and expansions to the EITC, and CTC.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:52
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Rygar201 posted:Anything less than Full Communism Now is a Betrayal of the Revolution, comrades. All of those are useless to people who don't have kids and can't work though, which is my loving point.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:56
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Rygar201 posted:Anything less than Full Communism Now is a Betrayal of the Revolution, comrades. As an Ultimate Leftist I personally think any candidated that doesn't promote Full Communism Yesterday is a corporate fascist Neo-Liberal sellout. My tower is high and mighty and I look down upon everyone.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:58
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BiohazrD posted:Racism, homophobia, and misogyny People are not born racist, homophobic, and misogynist. People do not acquire these ideas from the ether, or because they are born stupid or bad people. People learn these attitudes because there are actually-existing material structures in the world that teach those ideas to us. Sometimes, the teaching is explicit, but most of the time racism, homophobia, and misogyny, are internalized implicitly and unconsciously. It's great if you know better, but there is a reason why you do, and they don't. The structures that produce these ideologies have a history: they are not eternal or universal. They have a certain way to function and to perpetuate themselves in the world, thus perpetuating the ideas associated with them. The reason it's important to understand that is so we can actually dismantle them. Do you actually care about working to end racism, homophobia, and misogyny? Or do you care about you as an individual not being a racist, not being a homophobe, not being a misogynist, about "keeping your hands clean", and resting assured that you are a "good person" unlike those other people. Those are two very different things. If your ego is tied up in the idea that you are not-racist, then when you do something racist and get called out on it you will probably react in a really lovely and counter-productive way.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:04
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Lyesh posted:All of those are useless to people who don't have kids and can't work though, which is my loving point. Expanding the ETIC to childless men is expressly about covering this gap friend. I would also like Universal Basically Income. Sadly we're not there yet.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:08
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Bob le Moche posted:People are not born racist, homophobic, and misogynist. People do not acquire these ideas from the ether, or because they are born stupid or bad people.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:10
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Vehementi posted:What are some other reasons besides the jobs hostage situation? This is an interesting perspective on it: http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/24/i-know-why-poor-whites-chant-trump-trump-trump/ A lot of rural whites see Republicans as one of their own. They've been conditioned that poor living conditions are their own fault. The article uses Don Tyson as an example - he's the billionaire CEO of Tyson, and has a Southern demeanor that Southern whites identify with. He's just an "aw shucks" kind of guy who made it big, so he's an idolized guy. So when he begins importing in Mexican immigrants illegally to pay them godawful wages and displace jobs, it's the Mexicans' fault, not Don Tyson's. In addition, liberal elitism is a thing in their mind - rural whites are being made fun of for lacking teeth, being uneducated hicks, etc. There's a lot more to it - there's been a lot of convincing by the billionaire class to show whites that the problems of the world isn't the billionaires, but other races / creeds. Ideally, a social revolution should have blacks and poor rural whites rising together to smash the system, but instead they've grown discontent for each other.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:10
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Lyesh posted:All of those are useless to people who don't have kids and can't work though, which is my loving point. So does that make those proposals bad to you?
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Oct 6, 2016 19:18
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Taerkar posted:So does that make those proposals bad to you? The perfect is the enemy of the good comrade.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:26
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So what I'm getting here is that the left dislikes Clinton because her economic policies are crap and she isn't convincingly committed enough to progressivism and the right dislikes Clinton because misogyny and GOP talking points.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:26
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The right also dislikes her because she's a Democrat and because of Bill. A decent chunk of the right wing in this country believe that she and Bill derailed the thousand-year Republican Reign before it could bring prosperity to everyone (not everyone)
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Oct 6, 2016 19:34
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Taerkar posted:So does that make those proposals bad to you? No, it makes them insufficient. The popular narrative regarding being non-working poor in the US is that it's the easy life, when it's anything but. The Democratic party has bought into that narrative and it shows in their policy priorities and rhetoric. I dislike that quite a bit.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:34
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Do you understand that the feasible alternative right now is "gently caress the poor" and maniacal laughter?
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Oct 6, 2016 19:36
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Taerkar posted:Do you understand that the alternative is "gently caress the poor" and maniacal laughter? Do you understand that not liking something is not the same as liking its alternative? Edit: Do you understand the adverb "begrudgingly"?
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Oct 6, 2016 19:37
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Pollyanna posted:Do you understand that not liking something is not the same as liking its alternative? it's best to understand american politican discourse through the prism of sports. if you don't support my team in this match then you must be rooting for the other side, ergo, gently caress you.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:38
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Taerkar posted:Do you understand that the feasible alternative right now is "gently caress the poor" and maniacal laughter? I do. And I believe that that is partly because the strategy of working with Republicans has caused rightward movement in economic policy that is a large part of why poor people in this country are so hosed.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:39
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Main Paineframe posted:Don't forget the minorities, there's lots of those in the South and Bernie did a pretty bad job with them. I guess that might mess up the "only bad people voted for the candidate I don't like" narrative you were clearly going for, though. Yeah minorities always are a strong voter base in the South. Remember when they supported Strom Thurmond?
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Oct 6, 2016 19:39
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also Americans are brainwashed from birth into the superiority of America and any criticism of this, or acknowledging the genocide and war crimes committed by America, let alone all of the other horrific domestic and international stuff results in them getting really testy. Look Germans don't mind if you make jokes about their genocidal past, they admit it, they own it. American's can't even front up to their racist institutions and genocidal army.
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Oct 6, 2016 19:40
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JFairfax posted:it's best to understand american politican discourse through the prism of sports. This might work if the Ravens or whoever were working to further oppress minorities, etc.
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Oct 6, 2016 20:00
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Peanut President posted:Yeah minorities always are a strong voter base in the South. Remember when they supported Strom Thurmond? Look at this knob who doesn't understand primary elections
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Oct 6, 2016 20:08
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Vehementi posted:What are some other reasons besides the jobs hostage situation? They feel like their problems are the worst problems, and they both resent and distrust efforts to help people poorer than them because they feel like they're being neglected. Peanut President posted:Yeah minorities always are a strong voter base in the South. Remember when they supported Strom Thurmond? Primary electorates are different, as there's a lot of self-selection going on. Pretty sure most of the Southern whites were voting in the Republican primary.
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Oct 6, 2016 20:08
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Yeah, a poor white person who finds that every job opportunity has dried up is not someone who is going to be sympathetic to minorities entering america, as that directly impacts their livelihood for trying to find a job. Every democrat seems to focus on the poor minorities, or advocates for illegal immigrants to stay, while the job market in that persons town dries up. Young college kids talk about checking privilege and the evils of institutional racism, but the low-income whites in rural areas feel like they are being ignored or never had this 'white privilege' while minorities are being given special perks and having institutions accommodate them with programs that are talked about in major newspapers. To the poor white man, white privilege is a myth, because he feels like he never had any special accommodations based on his race, or any advocacy groups like the NAACP. In fact, he is the butt of the joke in progressive circles. Pharohman777 fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Oct 7, 2016 |
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Oct 7, 2016 05:26
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