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I'm voting SP because I want access to their creepy end-of-the-world shelters for when Russia attacks.
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Nov 1, 2016 13:04
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twoday posted:What do you guys think of DENK? DENK will never accomplish anything. If you want to make a political statement best to vote blank.
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Nov 25, 2016 15:29
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"Socialist boss cutting up rich people" has always been my interpretation.
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Nov 26, 2016 14:32
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Everyone here dislikes Russia but we dislike negative economic growth more and if the people I talk to are an indication appeasement is a perfectly valid strategy and never goes wrong.
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Dec 18, 2016 01:48
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Please stop pretending DENK is a real party and let me live in my fantasy world for a bit until they get a surprisingly high number of votes next election.
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Dec 21, 2016 10:28
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Sai posted:d66: the netherlands needs to become an education superpower in a united europe But also we vote in favour of ripping apart the student financial aid system big parties please love us and invite us to the next coalition talk we can make The Hard Choices.
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Dec 21, 2016 11:22
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Sai posted:i think the new system is Bad but if the Americans reading this knew that college in NL costs like 2000 euros a year and the left thinks thats unacceptable theyd be laughing till their balls dropped out of their mourhs Obviously, but let's not play race-to-the-bottom with the Americans. 9-Volt Assault posted:History at both universities in Amsterdam. It was ok, the profs were good people but its one of those degrees where you have at most 10 hours of class a week and barely any feedback on papers and stuff. For my masters thesis i had like 4 meetings with my advisor and that was it. Now that im a few years out i kinda feel like i really didnt learn anything. Its not true, but i have a lot of trouble coming up with concrete things to point to and say ''i learned that because i studied history!'. I think this is just life. A friend of mine did part of his degree in the US and his experience was you learn about the same in both situations, but the US gives you 10x the busywork.
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Dec 21, 2016 12:19
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My Imaginary GF posted:If by 'new nazis' you mean ISIS, c. Europe is once again allowing the rise of militant, religious fascism, because it is too loving weak to take a stand for European values. I'm pretty sure they mean the rising far right parties.
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Dec 22, 2016 12:48
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Sai posted:vvd says they wont govern with the pvv These promises routinely get broken and mean nothing by now.
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Dec 25, 2016 15:24
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Again, it can not be emphasized enough that the Dutch pre-election polls are notoriously unreliable.
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Jan 9, 2017 11:16
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The Puppet Master posted:didnt vvd say they won't form a govt with pvv? The VVD says a lot of things.
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Jan 9, 2017 11:42
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poty posted:. It's not Netherlands-silly, but it's close In three weeks 28 goddamn parties will vie for the pie. Although realistically don't expect more than 10 give or take to win parliament seats.
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Feb 22, 2017 23:44
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While the SP is pretty vocal about being anti Europe, but they want reform, not departure. Only a week now until Dutch elections.
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Mar 8, 2017 08:05
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Yeah to give an idea the SGP voted against women suffrage. Then when it inevitably passed, they urged women not to vote anyway. This is 1918-1922. However, only as recently as 1989 they have made their formal position that women should decide for themselves whether they vote. In 1993 they made it their formal policy that women can't be members of the party. Not until 2006 they were forced to accept women members. The whole basis for this is the man-woman power relation from the bible. They are very consistent in their support, polling consistently at around 2% of the population for about a century.
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Mar 9, 2017 17:01
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TheIllestVillain posted:i have to ask, what exactly did Dutch Labour do to be staring down the face of an absolute electoral wipeout Absolutely nothing. Which is a problem when they were the ones governing. Essentially they have just had a civil war and have been happily marching along with neoliberal policy for the last 4 years. Namarrgon has issued a correction as of 10:30 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 09:59
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I doubt NATO even could organise such a thing. Or anything other than war actually.
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Mar 12, 2017 11:32
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You realize that the Russian media under Putin cannot be trusted right? Just like the RWM under Trump cannot be trusted right now. The Ukraine uprising was definitely real and spontaneous against an elected official that flirted with the EU then suddenly took a turn towards Russia. You could at most blame the West for not intervening in the process and reinstating an elected official, but that as a viewpoint is pretty stupid.
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Mar 12, 2017 15:38
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Let's look away from other topics for the coming week and focus on the Dutch election! That is very near. After say, Friday, we can go back to bitching about Le Pen. This coming Wednesday, Dutch citizens will go out to vote for the composition of Dutch parliament ("Tweede Kamer", literally "Second Chamber" or "Second Room"). This is the most important of Dutch elections and determines the political landscape and government, possibly for the next 4 years. General Structure of the election process Parliament is made up of 150 seats. Seats are divided proportionally based on number of votes. So if a party gets 10% of the votes, they get 15/150 seats. Easy enough. There is no minimum threshold and 1- or 2-seat parties are somewhat normal. No party will get a majority (76 seats) on their own that is necessary to push legislature, so Dutch governments are made up of coalitions. Parties will negotiate with each other until a coalition is formed that together make up at least 76 seats. These coalition parties will then carve up the cabinet posts into senior ministers ("minister") and junior ministers ("staatssecretarissen", literally "state secretary") who all together make up the executive branch of government. Voting itself is simple, it is one round where you vote on an individual in a political party. In practice however you would rarely discuss invidiuals you vote for and the only thing that matters is what party you vote for. No second rounds, no odd voting structures. Why should we care? The Netherlands is tiny and unimportant With around 17 million citizens, the Netherlands is ranked #8 of EU countries by population. Map size is deceiving, and the Netherlands has about double the population of Austria and triple the population of Denmark. Not a major player, but far from insignificant. Economicall, the Netherlands is ranked #6 by GDP, you could say first of the 'secondary economies' after the EU big boys (in order Germany, UK, France, Italy, Spain). Consider all the drama about Turkish entry into the EU, how it is a major geopolitical (NATO) ally to the West etc etc? Remember that the Dutch GDP is higher than that of Turkey. Dutch politics is not going to make or break the EU, but it is significant. The Parties This year there is an unusual high number of parties that will participate in the elections, with 28 parties participating. I will not mention them all, because easily 25% of these is not going to get any seat and another good chunk may get only 1 or 2 seats. Of these, 11 parties currently hold seats in parliament, so those sound like a good place to start. I will mention the parties in the order they appear on the ballot. I am not going to pretend to be unbiased. This is also not an in-depth analysis of their viewpoints, but an idea to give to all non-Dutch about what the hell the Dutchies are talking about. VVD  VVD boss Mark Rutte Centre-right conservative liberals. Taxes bad, privatization good. Job creators good, poor people just need to work harder. Currently the largest party with 41 seats in parliament and the party of Prime-Minister Mark Rutte. The VVD is about as far financially right-wing as it goes and a great choice if you believe that that government budget should be run like a household and that austerity is a good idea. Currently the main axis of government. Proponents: "I like reaping the rewards of the sweat of my brow" Opponents: "Neoliberal scum" PvdA  PvdA boss Lodewijk Asscher The other goverment party of the last 4 years, on paper the PvdA is the Labour Party with 38 seats. In practice them seem to have had an internal civil war and have happily marched along to VVD's tune during the last government cycle. Is expected to be one of the big losers this election. Unclear exactly what their platform is, as their plans on paper are so drastically different from what they have actually been doing for the past 4 years. They have lost a lot of credibility as they seem to be actively arguing against things that they just did. This may have had to do with the internal civil war. Proponents: "Standing up for the working man" Opponents: "Also neoliberal scum" PVV  PVV boss Geert Wilders Sigh. Dutch Trump and Dutch Le Pen rolled in one. Populist right-wing party aiming their guns at brown people. I think we all know the drill by now. PVV supporters who try to hide their racism will argue that the non-racial policy proposals of the PVV are actually very left-wing and while this is true on paper, context tells us that the PVV would gladly piss on those, set them on fire and throw them under the bus if it means they could exile a single brown person. Currently 15 seats, but is doing really well in the polls. Sigh. Proponents: "Making the Netherlands Great Again" Opponents: "Fascists" SP  SP boss Emile Roemer Probably the most radical left party. And you can tell that they are true believers too; parliament members donate their income to the party and receive a median wage in return. Incidentally this has also made it by far the richest party too. Not that this has helped them very far. As far as I know they've never been part of the government. They have a relatively stable 10% support base on which they have been cruising along and also have 15 seats in parliament right now. You can always rely on the SP to vote against privitization and tax cuts and all those neoliberal things, but you can also rely on them being overruled by the rest. Proponents: "Power to the people" Opponents: "Incompetent communists" CDA  CDA boss Sybrand Buma Christian centrists. Not that it matters, because the CDA will happily sell its soul to join any coalition and will then bend its view to support the other parties. I guess a CDA vote is for when you are too much of a coward to vote blank. Has had quite a lot of government experience but lost bigly during the last election and currently sits at 13 seats. Proponents: "Maybe the truth is in the middle on a lot of real issues" Opponents: "lol cda" D66  D66 boss Alexander Pechtold Traditionally the party for the higher educated. D66 has a history of fluctuating between being a major and a minor party. Currently it sits more towards the minor side with 12 seats. I find them interesting as they have often not been afraid to take less popular (with the general population) standpoints, such as being pro-EU. On the one hand they have very left-leaning ideas such as increasing spending on sustainable energy and education, on the other hand they voted in favour of gutting the student financial aid system. Proponents: "I am socially liberal but fiscally conservative" Opponents: "class traitors" CU  CU boss It should probably tell you something that I had to look up who leads this party. With 5 seats, the CU is the largest of the two parties that can be described as 'very Christian'. Pro-life, anti gay marriage and all those fun things, but very rarely aggressive about it. Proponents: "I am a good little Christian" Opponents: "CU? That's the extremely Christian one that is not utterly bonkers right? I always confuse the two." GroenLinks  GroenLinks boss Jesse Klaver (aka "the Jessiah") While currently a solid minor party at 4 points, they have recently gotten a new frontrunner, and the Obama-esque (not my words) Jesse Klaver is expected to make GroenLinks Proponents: "With Jesse Klaver we feel that GroenLinks can actually accomplish something this time around" Opponents: "SP-lite edition" SGP  SGP boss Kees van der Staaij The other 'very Christian' party. Die-hard fundamentalist that don't even allow women to vote participate in their party. My grandfather believes the world is 6000 years old and votes for them. They are currently at an unprecedented 3 seats (up from 2) and if nothing else they are a testament that the Netherlands is one of the most atheistic countries in the world. Proponents: "Keep holy the Sunday as the lord intended" Opponents: "are they serious?" PvdD  PvdD boss Marianne Thieme "Party for the Animals" in favour of better treatment of animals. With only 2 seats, it could have been a division of one of the major parties, as the PvdD seems to be a one-issue party. It is impossible to tell though, as they have never been relevant. Proponents: "We love animals!" Opponents: "I think other issues are more important" 50Plus  50Plus boss Henk Krol If the PvdD is the one-issue party for animal rights, then 50Plus is the one-issue (ish) party in favour for pensioners' interest such as the pension starting age. A very new party, their current 2 seats in parliament are expected to possibly increase 5-fold. Like other developed nations, the Netherlands also has the problem of an aging population and it turns out that the pyramid scheme that is the pension system was based on an assumption of infinite growth. Silly us. Proponents: " Opponents: "I don't really want to subsidize the generation that caused all of our current problems" Results On the 15th of March voting stations will be open for most of the day. Exit polls are a thing, but definite results are usually not in until deep into the night of the 15th to the 16th. Namarrgon has issued a correction as of 08:19 on Mar 13, 2017 |
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Mar 12, 2017 19:09
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As much as I despise him on a personal and political level he looks more or less normal to me. Maybe a bit like a bleach-blonde try-hard, but not otherwise remarkable.
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Mar 12, 2017 19:26
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Fiction posted:So I know Dutch polls are poo poo but support among parties is so divided that the coalition is guaranteed to be some sort of Rutte-led clusterfuck VVD-D66-CDA-mumble-mumble coalition, right? I'd say there are two likely possibilities. They depend on whether the party's promise not to form a coalition with Geert Wilders' PVV is true or not. These are politicians after all. If it was a campaign lie, I'd say we'll see a VVD-PVV-X coalition. If it was not a campaign lie, I'd see it go in your direction. I'd also expect that government to fall within 2 years. Bonus comedy option; GroenLinks becomes a massive party and we get a left-led GroenLinks-SP-X-Y cabinet. This is unlikely.
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Mar 12, 2017 21:50
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9-Volt Assault posted:You picked the wrong person though, it's Gert-Jan Segers now. poo poo. I wish I could claim this was part of the joke but unfortunately not.
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Mar 13, 2017 08:18
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twoday posted:Haha, don't worry guys, I'm not actually going to vote for a party that denies the Armenian genocide. The Dutch government currently does not recognize the Armenian genocide. What I'm saying is don't vote for VVD or PvdA.
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Mar 13, 2017 13:24
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TheIllestVillain posted:how did the Netherlands end up with an AKP mouthpiece party running for parliament Parliamentary seats (and votes) are granted to individuals, instead of to parties. So, at any point during the cabinet those individuals can decide to leave their party and start an independent party. This is common and usually results in the new party not getting any seats in the next election.
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Mar 13, 2017 13:26
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twoday posted:Parliament does, though. No it doesn't. That declares the intent 'to make discussabel the question of the Armenian Genocide with Turkey' and that parliament is of the opinion that it is a good thing if Turkey and the Armenian region come to an understanding. Which is hollow self-evident talk.
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Mar 13, 2017 14:44
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I don't want the desintegration of capitalism. I want it at it's rightful place; chained and at the knees of human rights and the welfare state. Waffling between SP and PvdD.
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Mar 14, 2017 11:46
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Wilders is an evil death eather. The true master and parent is liberal VVD. I don't really know Harry Potter...
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Mar 14, 2017 12:04
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AlexanderCA posted:I might vote pvda because, while I prefer D66's more libertine attitude, I really dislike vvd's authoritarian "act normal" spiel. Economically I like a stronger welfare state in principle as well. But, It doesn't really affect my STEMlord situation personally. It's ok, all liberals are equal under the guillotine.
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Mar 14, 2017 19:57
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Corek posted:Something I want to know is why the Netherlands has so many parties. I heard that no party has ever gained a full majority of votes/seats in the history of Dutch elections, is that true? The threshold is really low. Anyone that gets about 2/3 of a % of the vote gets a seat in parliament. Many countries have a minimum like 5 or 10 % before they count. A significant portion of our parties bounce around 2-5 seats. Dutch politics is not first-past-the-post. Without a winner takes all, the formation of coalition is the norm. This allows people to vote for the party they want and discourages 'tactical voting'. And you know what they say; 17 million inhabitants, 17 million parties. Add to this that a lot of parties are formed by 'splitting' of another party. This means that even minor parties have some experienced people at the top to organise the new party.
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Mar 14, 2017 20:18
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So, as always, polls have shown the alt-right PVV to be much larger than in reality, although it has gained some ground. In general, there is a very clear neoliberal winner with the rest of the parties sorta there. Which means there will be a lot of coalition possiblities. So lets look at the left parties quickly hurrying to stand in line to sell out in exchange for those sweet sweet ministry posts because they will have learned nothing from the gutted PvdA because we are a vile, cancerous species.
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Mar 16, 2017 01:01
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Badger of Basra posted:Do you get a bunch of money for having a minister or something? I can't imagine why GL would want to join the coalition when they would definitely lose most of the seats they just won in the next election Well besides the ministry salary, which is high but not extravagant; your party builds up credentials for having governed. Much as I also this year voted SP, they have never been in government and they'd probably not do a fantastic job at it.
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Mar 16, 2017 01:05
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PvdA would get on its knees in an instant if offered a position as a In the words of some old guy I spoke to yesterday; "good luck to the formateur".
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Mar 16, 2017 12:11
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Party overview; https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3795723&userid=144674#post470251212 Dutch Elections; outcome So after a few days of drinking my sorrow away, it is time to show our foreign friends the results from the election last week. The good news; it is not worst case scenario. The bad news; we voted for the liberal status quo. So again, there are 150 seats in parliament. The government is determined by a coalition of parties that together have at least 76 seats, but they'll aim for more just to be on the safe side. There's also a senate, but we'll leave that out for simplicity. Coalition negotiation is a whole separate topic off itself and can last anywhere between a few days to a hundred days or more. Elections determined that there will be 13 parties with seats in parliament.  So to recap; the current exiting government is VVD-PvdA (liberal-labour). From the votes, it seems that any majority coalition is going to need at least 4 different parties, which is insane and an almost guarantee this government is not going to make it 4 years. So first things first, the Dutch Trump (Geert Wilders; PVV) did not become the largest party. This is great, because it means there is no negotiation pressure to give him an actual position in government. Apparently this was international news. Now if the PVV was of similar size as the VVD but slightly smaller, it is likely they would be invited by the VVD for talks. But as it stands, there are alternative choices here (CDA or D66) of similar size. In short; PVV will stay an opposition party and rant and rave about Muslims for at least another election cycle. Second, the PvdA was absolutely gutted. Traditionally, it has been one of the consistently larger parties in Dutch politics, together with VVD and CDA. The PvdA, as a labour party, is perceived to have given in too much to liberal VVD. They also had their internal civil war where they ditched charismatic handsome Samsom for who-is-that-again? Asscher. Currently at 9 seats following last week, this is the lowest they have ever been and there have already been resignation. Probably did not help that even old PvdA ministers went on tv saying they were definitely not voting PvdA. GroenLinks went through the opposite. They went from a large minor party to a decidedly medium-sized party and this is the largest they've ever been. Mostly thanks to their charismatic leader. Although VVD is (still) the largest, it has to be taken in relative terms; they lost nearly a quarter of their seats. Mark Rutte will still be prime minster of course, which means a broad continuation of neoliberal policy, minus anything the other coalition parties will be able to negotiate for. PvdD roughly doubled, although is still a minor party. Same for 50+. DENK is a newcomer. A split-off party from PvdA, they focus mostly on Turkish-Dutch citizens. Being so new, it is difficult to estimate how they will actually behave because as we know political rhetoric is extremely unreliable. At face value, their program is not bad at all, though they are criticized as a proxy-party for Turkey/Erdogan, as a majority of Dutch Turks are pro-Erdogan. Forum for Democracy (FvD) is a complete newcomer. Not a split-off as it the Dutch custom, but a result of an actual grassroots movement. It is unfortunate that they are alt-right redpillers. Not kidding. What now? Now we enter the tedious coalition negotiation process. Again; it seems there is no possible scenario with less than 4 parties, which is impractical at best. This is a vastly complex topic that encompasses leadership personalities, histories between the parties and ideologies that I won't go into in full detail, but just mention a few. The most likely coalition now seems to be VVD-CDA-D66-X, where X is either PvdA or CU (intense christians). VVD and CDA would be natural allies, as CDA has been strongly indicating a more right turn, though there are rumours of personality clashes between the parties. D66 is much more progressive than CDA, but it seems like the only realistic option if the goal is to exclude PVV from government. SP is not going to join the coalition for sure and it would seem unwise for GroenLinks to do so, unless they want to get gutted like PvdA was. On the contrary PvdA would almost certainly kiss the VVD's shiny shoes for the scraps of a near-irrelevant ministry or two. CU might be convinced as an alternative for some token concessions like the government opposing euthanasia for the elderly. I guess that means that we (the Dutch) will occasionally update this thread with major developments and when a government is finally formed. But it is not unrealistic the negotiations will last beyond the French elections at least, which is likely going to be the main focus of this thread. Namarrgon has issued a correction as of 12:25 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 12:11
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lollontee posted:Wilders and Trump, while horrible monsters, would have forced things to change. Yes. This is why I consider the current results roughly third-worst-case-scenario. After a PVV majority and a VVD-PVV coalition, but far far from any positive change.
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Mar 18, 2017 12:55
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YF-23 posted:How do Dutch politics handle hung parliaments? Is there a chance government-formation negotiations will break down and repeat elections called within the year? Longest negotiation period has been 208 days since WW2, so there is a precedent for dragging it out. In the mean time the current government only has the mandate to continue current policy. There's also the possibility of a minority coalition, where the actual governing is done my parties that together have the minority in parliament, but can pass legislation by ad-hoc working with other parties on individual bills. This is about as stable as it sounds. I'm not sure how re-elections would go. It is definitely possible, but I don't know the exact precedent. I wouldn't expect that here though; it seems more likely we'll get a VVD-PVV-CDA-X cabinet that will last a year or two.
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Mar 18, 2017 15:03
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If GroenLinks joins they might get the PvdA treatment next election cycle.
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Mar 18, 2017 18:13
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GL and D66 together clamping down the worst parts of liberal lunacy would be a best realistic case scenario given the election outcome.
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Mar 19, 2017 15:22
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Next up is violent Buddhist terrorism; forcing your rebirth so you work through your disgusting karmic debt faster.
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Apr 1, 2017 15:37
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DrProsek posted:been as the polls predicted or had the far right under-performing (see: Netherlands). Dangerous talk. Dutch outcome is far from ideal. Neoliberal won, fascist second and Christian conservative that explicitly wanted to go more right wing ended third. The hopeful for actual positive development is expected to get a pity-ministry in the new order. E: Wilders might have underperformed by global standards, but for national standards he was a major winner during the elections. Namarrgon has issued a correction as of 11:07 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 11:04
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