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E Equals MC Hammer posted:Ah but what do you get when you remove the game? code:
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Dec 14, 2016 16:34
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Carcer posted:That's literally the HOM argument. It annoyed you if you didn't use it because you knew it was advantageous to do so but didn't want to put up withthe busywork of having to recast the spell whenever a fight was imminent. You can spot where the HOM makes sense if you look at it from the direction of the player always regenerating MP and failure rates. You don't want a spell to fail in the middle of combat (you lose the turn and MP), so you train in it to minimize the failure rate to avoid that happening. Buff spells, due to the nature of having a duration, make it more useful to cast prior to combat (or outside LOS) to avoid losing a turn while a monster is in LOS. Thus, failure rate only needs to be the bare minimum needed to cast it, making sure you won't get bad miscast effects, then recasting until it works. It also makes better use of your MP outside of combat: why let it sit at 100℅ with no buffs when you could have a buff and 90℅, regen most of it before you see an enemy, and also not waste a turn at the start of the fight casting a buff? Attack spells don't have this problem because there is nothing to attack outside of combat (except for Delayed Fireball, I guess, which I also don't like as a spell). Changing buffs to subtract max MP for permanent duration doesn't change the failure rate/MP usage issue, it just shifts the exploiting base to melee users with minimal want of spells. Train the bare minimum to cast in a safe place (with armor off if the spell allows), boosting Int and spellpower using all available sources, then taking it all back off when the spell succeeds. Congratulations, you are now always utilizing that MP you never would use otherwise, for a free permanent buff for no equipment slot cost! The only buffs that I find work well in Crawl are permanent buffs from equipment egos/artifact stats, temporary buffs from consumables, god power buffs because they cost piety/a god slot, and Hexes 'buffing' you by debuffing the monster. The only way to really remove the problems I stated above and still have spell buffs would be to remove natural MP regen to force only using them when required (thus, also requiring training of them). Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 17:49
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These look good at first glance (other than balancing around food, yuck), but also looks like it may take a lot of effort to implement and balance properly. Sometimes, things are removed because the amount of effort required to fix them is substantially larger than removing it. Other times, it is because consensus towards a solution is mixed, and removal fixes the issue temporarily for the short term until a proper solution is found. If you really want something changed in Crawl, try asking a member of the dev team (if you can't get an answer here, try the #crawl-dev IRC) on willingness to accept a patch/pull request that does this, and go make it! I'm not trying to be rude by saying this, but having the code ready to be added immediately and somebody on the dev team batting for you can go a lot farther than just brainstorming/proposing it (see how much progress on fixing Malmutate there has been since I started bitching and not actually contributing a physical solution, for example  ).
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Dec 14, 2016 18:41
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Carcer posted:Even if I learned to code and started submitting stuff to the dev team I doubt I'd win an argument to get them added back in. You also have the option to create your own branch, and if the only thing you care about is high elves, you probably just need to learn git to exclude any updates related to the removal of high elves. The species_data code is actually pretty modular and simple compared to what it used to be, and high elves don't have any special abilities that could be deleted, so it should be relatively easy to maintain. Adding the Charms spells back in might be a bit more work, however.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:47
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I realize I never provided my opinion on removing high elves: meh. I would probably say the same thing about mountain dwarves if I was playing when that happened. I'm slightly more upset about the Ogre change. I feel M&F was a bit too high, but it probably should have been lowered to +1, or 0 at the lowest (matching the Throwing aptitude at least).
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Dec 14, 2016 22:07
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Speleothing posted:Not if we want our wins recorded online. Or want spectators. Or want to post our morgues for advice. For the second point, streaming sites are available and you can always post a link in the thread or the Discord. For the third, the functionality to dump a morgue is already a function of the game, and you can proceed to paste bin it for advice. You got me beat on the first unless you want to set up your own scoring server or get it approved as a scored branch option on one of the existing servers.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:27
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PleasingFungus posted:aptitudes I mostly agree with the viewpoint of the second and third uses as well. I don't feel that players should need a guide past the generalizations that the second point provides, but I think the third is also important for differentiation. I think about aptitudes for a species like this: 1) What is the baseline aptitude for this species, based on the strengths and weaknesses it derives from any special mutations/abilities, stats, HP/MP/XP. Species who come out with a better aptitude baseline likely have less going for them in other areas to compensate. 2) What are the general fields of expertise for this species? Melee/ranged/spellcasting/stealth/defenses/etc? Are they better or worse at these than normal? This is what helps to differentiates this species from other species, usually raising or lowering these fields 1-2 points from the baseline. 3) Does this species need to be better/worse at something specific to further differentiate/specialize it? This is an optional step based on how bland the species currently is after reaching Step 2, and should be limited to a couple skills or less (not venturing too far from whatever the field's aptitude level is from Step 2) that should be chosen either for flavor or to assist supporting one of their special mutations/abilities. The variance can be greater if there is no companion skills in the same field (like Invocations, Stealth, or Fighting). Based on this, I feel that M&F being at +3 compared to other weapon schools was definitely too much specialization compared to all the other weapon skills, discouraging other avenues of choice. However, I feel that the correct change to encourage different choices would be to bring most of the weapon skills to -1 as a baseline, with a couple popping up to 0 (like polearms/staves/m&f) for that third step of specialization. Likewise, the ranged combat aptitudes could likely be flattened to -2, with Throwing at -1 (or remaining at 0, if you don't want to be picky).
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Dec 15, 2016 00:11
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tweet my meat posted:So as a new player who plays High Elves almost exclusively, what's a good alternative that combines the really good magic aptitudes with the survivability and flexibility or the high elf? Pick a healthy species with decent magic aptitudes and go Chei.
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Dec 15, 2016 02:26
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Sage Grimm posted:Guys the king hybrid nowadays is Merfolk. Thanks for getting Polearms taken down to -2 for Mf 
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Dec 15, 2016 02:34
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:On one hand jivya gave me the -50% base armour ac before giving me any scales, on the other hand I grabbed the gong before a jelly could eat it. That's not a issue with Jiyva, just burn piety to remove it. dpeg posted:If you play a recent Crawl, then killing monsters in the Abyss will open up an exit. Personally, I think that's the cheesy way, but now there are three ways to get out: (1) randomly run into exit, (2) Lugonu, (3) fight. This was a really good change in my opinion, because if you are buff enough to fight until an exit (or downstairs) appear, the Abyss isn't a threat to you outside of the statistical oddity and should absolutely be sped up instead of wasting your time. I wish Pan was as efficient as that.
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Dec 16, 2016 17:10
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SirSamVimes posted:You can bring back shadow traps if you give us rmut back. gently caress no, keep shadow traps, I don't want rMut that bad. Especially since warding no longer exists.
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Dec 17, 2016 15:07
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:Pan scumming is great except somehow I still ended up with a bunch of mutations despite having the second tier of stable genetics and the alchemists hat. E Equals MC Hammer posted:Pan scumming Found the source of your problem. Also, I agree that hwounds/haste/tele wands should head out (or recharge, one of the two), but there should absolutely be thought put into how to handle the fallout first (like mummies, for example) before removing them. I don't want to see another rMut/Malmutate, where rMut was definitely bad design but just removing it without fixing the rest of the system just makes that system way more frustrating. XP is also fine now, IMO. The only time I felt I could sleepwalk through the game was with the powercombos, and usually only by Vaults.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:54
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This is once again a change I am happy with, but frustrated that all the cascading consequences for doing so haven't been corrected before committing. Hopefully they get fixed faster than removing rMut has fixed mutations!Internet Kraken posted:Oh yeah now silence is super lethal. Time to HOM by carrying a ring of teleportation and avoiding clearing the entire level in order to have a chance to escape Mennas/Ereshkigal! Also mummy and lichform are hosed, just let them drink potions at this point because lich form still can't use the better high level necro spells and mummies will still be hot garbage.
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Dec 21, 2016 16:15
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taqueso posted:If you can code, you could work up some fixes to whatever you think has been left unbalanced. I'm sure they will give your ideas a fair shake, the devs are incredibly responsive and accommodating of beginners. Crawl has been the nicest pull-request experiences I've had. But that's woooork. Honestly, the reason I haven't sat down to look through and try to fix the mutation system is because the idea that came closest to seeing dev acceptance from all my bitching has been revamping Extended's overuse of it. I'm not sure if just modifying cacodemons and neqoxecs to not use Malmutate is going to fly (neither is temp muts when demonspawn exist in Pan already, and I don't like using contamination either) without giving them an equally powerful ability, and modifying spawn rates just hides the problem. Maybe giving them the ability to inflict MR- would be adequate, but then it needs play testing as well to ensure Extended doesn't become unplayable. The other annoying source is Hell's contamination effect, but that's (hopefully) already being looked into. I'm also a weird person who is fine with OOFs and shining eyes retaining Malmutate and rMut not existing (with a fixed system), which might not really fit with how everyone else wants mutations fixed. I think I have too many pet projects going on and not enough focus. I also want to create a new species branch based off a Tavern thread for a species with +5 aptitudes in everything but lower max skill cap (of 10-12 instead of 27, haven't pinned down the exact number yet) to see if it's any fun/good/too OP. Not to mention that I've still got a half finished Crawl Central Auth prototype floating around my hard drive that still needs basic account login/management functionality implemented, much less fulfilling its intended purpose. I also jumped on the winter dev jam thing in the roguelike thread, but haven't even progressed with a basic interface yet. I really need to pick something and finsh it
Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 17:13
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The strawman of the HOM is the person who finds an advantage through extreme tedium, this ruining the fun for everyone who was using it properly in a non-tedious manner. The reality is that the HOM is based on the concept that the player shouldn't be performing tedious actions/gameplay because it provides them a strictly better chance of survival/victory over those that don't. Take Sandblast: the tedium identified in the previous system was that it is annoying to constantly swap between wielding/not wielding stones in order to change the power of the spell. This means either constantly opening the inventory or hitting the quickswap button and constantly reassigning the spots in your inventory to support the spell. The interface fix to stop all these button presses was to consume stones directly from the inventory. Enter the HOM: although most players will be content with the improved interface, the HOM is upset that their tedium has now increased. This is because the HOM has identified that the optimal play is to conserve starting stones for serious threats, using the low power version on everything else. This means that the developers will have increased the tedium by forcing the player to drop stones to avoid casting the higher version and using a valuable resource, instead of just wielding/unwielding. However, even though this situation is worse, the old solution still isn't good. Thus, the HOM's actions mean that the problem must be solved in a different way: removing the desire to swap between different strengths of the same spell. Consensus leads to the stone-consuming version being more interesting to keep, thus it is no longer castable without stones. Instead of asking for tedium to come back, the better question is how to fix the new problem (the number of stones you start with for Sandblast is too limiting for a mage Background's sole offense with this new version). It is more fun to construct strawmen, though, so the HOM is the dreaded fun ruining beast of Crawl.
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Dec 21, 2016 18:01
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dpeg posted:Floodkiller: There is the idea of Hell/Pan roulette, which would (a) cut extended half in size, and (b) hopefully come with a population review because the idea is to make both halves roughly comparable in threat and loot. Might be a good idea to have a look at mutators then. I think I explained this in a previous version of the thread, but I'll cover it again. Mutations are a fun little gimmick for most of a 3 rune game. You can opt in by drinking beneficial mutation or gambling with less reliable sources like purple meat and Xom. Enemies with Malmutate are rare aside from the occasional summoner. The only places Malmutate are common are Abyss (scary on its own), Slime (fits the theme, Jiyva at the bottom can fix it) and Zot (the endgame, so it makes sense as a major threat to your character). If you stick with 3 runes and done, the system is often manageable and mistakes are usually self caused or cases of extreme unluckiness (never getting a cure mutation potion). Once you enter Extended, it becomes ridiculously common to the point of needing a plan to deal with it and recover from it. Unfortunately, one of the most common plans is to avoid doing anything with mutations for the entire game in order to conserve your cure mutations until they are needed. This is because of two factors. The first factor is that some mutations are so awful that even gaining a single rank can drastically reduce the survivability of your character (like teleportitis), while others are relatively harmless. The second is how cure mutation works: the more mutations you have, the less likely you will remove the bad ones. This combination means that it is optimal to completely ignore the mutation system until it is necessary to drink cure mutation to fix one of the "game ender" mutations, rationing out your stock as long as possible. The alternatives involve swapping gods (heavily reducing the viability of using many of the gods in Extended), lichform or playing undead species, or just getting lucky while simultaneously having such overwhelming firepower at range to ensure it never occurs. This leaves me frustrated that an entire mechanic is relegated to an abstracted strategic rot system depending on how long you want to play the game, and needs to be decided on character start to avoid doing things that will hinder your abilities thousands of turns later. Arguably, this could mean the mutation system itself is fundamentally broken (many of the tier 1/2 mutations need to be modified to become less game ending if acquired), but I feel that keeping Malmutate rare keeps it from being as frustrating while preserving it for all the other fun gambling/weighing of advantages/disadvantages in the normal game, as well as keeps Abyss and Slime unique, along with Zot as the super scary end game.
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Dec 21, 2016 18:43
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Unimpressed posted:Hey Floodkiller, if teleportitis and berserkitis are the malmuts you save your pots for and they're what's ruining the whole system (being so much worse than everything else, you just put up with everything else), why not simply remove those two mutations? I think the only mut that everyone could agree is a universal game ender at level 1 is teleportitis, because it is just that detrimental to have a chance to be pulled away from resting, into vaults, etc. that it is unfeasible to have anywhere other than the Abyss, where you won't notice the difference unless the rune is in sight. Every single other mutation is based on what you are playing. For example, I rarely cure berserkitis because I often play melee characters and I do so in a way that the random berserk won't really gently caress me over. The two spellpower/success rate mutations are game enders for very different characters (though maybe not as much with most of the Charms reformed or removed). Shoutitis is funny to me because I almost always play without sound in mind and do fine, but a character who needs stealth to pick and choose battles is hosed. Teleportitis is the only one where I cannot think of a single character who would be able to mostly ignore it or use it to their advantage. I would probably change teleportitis to teleporting you within 2-3 squares of a monster if you are within 10/25/40 (or full level) squares of it, based on the rank and current activation rules. Rank 1 only hurts your ability to run away or resting up while monsters are at the edge of LOS, but the higher levels will start pulling you everywhere like the current version.
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Dec 22, 2016 00:13
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IronicDongz posted:MuFi^Oka 15 rune I am honestly more concerned about losing the wand of hasting for mummies over heal wounds. You had Oka, which compensates for this on the melee side. I saw Finesse was used 35 times at 25-27; when did you feel it was necessary for surviving the encounter over just spending excess piety on a reasonable threat? Again, I feel these wand changes are good (except Mennas and Ereshkigal should probably be looked at for being sources of silence faster than the player with the lack of wand teleport), because their existence just meant you had an extremely high stock of those resources the moment you found the wands thanks to recharging. I think the mummy outcries are more of the same of mummies being complete trash and continuing to spiral further due to quality of life changes and reasonable nerfs removing their advantages and crutches as collateral while leaving their disadvantages the same. They should probably just be renamed to Refuse or something appropriate to indicate that it is a joke species.
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Dec 22, 2016 13:56
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:define xomscumming Choose CK/worship Xom, find a safe place like Temple or a portal vault where nothing OOD can spawn (or just do it on each dungeon floor on the way down and leave when you spot something bad), hold 5 until Xom gives you enough gifts, optionally abandon for another god. If you get a good attack rod, you can take out the OOD spawns for a giant boost in early XP One of the few remaining niches of being unable to starve, but Vampire can do it better and also has less of a desire to do it in the first place. code:
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Dec 22, 2016 15:35
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Fitzy Fitz posted:Remove wands of digging and disintegration. You jest, but one or both are probably next on the chopping block.
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Dec 22, 2016 15:50
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Shinino Kage posted:Some of these are actually things that I wouldn't mind seeing and could be dangerous as gently caress. Mainly: Reckless, Accursed and Poor Vision. Reckless and Poor Vision are just interface screws that don't actually affect good play if you are willing to introduce more tedium. I'm not sure if you are allowed to manipulate level gen with a mutation either. You might be able to rework it into it occasionally spawning ghost around you, but that sounds more like a curse than a physical mutation.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:11
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IronicDongz posted:like I said before, I will do another Mu run without Oka if that is what is needed to convince people. Please don't suffer for other people's opinions. I was asking in curiosity, not in disagreement.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:47
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:Discord will make my summons go crazy too right? That is the end goal. I don't know if Discord counts as ally harm, but if it does Zin will get pissy.
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Dec 24, 2016 15:16
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Shinino Kage posted:Someone explain god gifts to me. God gifts work like acquirement, but with some added weight to certain features, like Trog giving antimagic more often. Now, how likely are you to get something useful when you acquire weapons? There's your answer.
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Dec 27, 2016 15:41
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Shinino Kage posted:Which goes back to what I said a while back. Why does acquirement give you things that you have no use for? I dunno, I just think that acquirement / god gifts should give you something you have skill points in (even if from cross training) If you had the option to restrict acquirement down to a single weapon class, I feel you would come back and ask why you can be gifted a +5 hand axe of distortion when you acquire axes. The devs intended acquirement to not be a wish system, just a way to force floorgod to spawn something that is interesting on demand, even if it may not be interesting to you specifically. I'm indifferent to either approach, but maybe one of the devs can explain in better detail why acquirement is preferred over wishes for Crawl design.
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Dec 27, 2016 17:03
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IronicDongz posted:it's kind of underwhelming, the damage just isn't that good It's hilarious if you get your hands on a lot of slaying, though.
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Dec 28, 2016 18:44
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Large amount of changes with evocables, so I'm only linking to the biggest commit: Rods are now gone. Iron rods and rods of clouds have been turned into wands, lightning rods replace the disc of storms (and go inert like exp evokers after doing a single volley of 4), and ignition/inaccuracy are removed along with wands of slowing. Most wands now have smaller ranges than LoS so that clouds and scattershot don't go to LoS, with the exception of random effects which goes to max range regardless (but was also reworked to just be a static list of effects instead of picking from all wands). Also, disintegration can no longer dig (called it!), and digging has been given the ability to break statues. Removing rods is yet another nerf to mummies! 
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Dec 31, 2016 03:52
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Darox posted:In addition to disintegration, IOODs got changed to not destroy walls also. I am okay with this orb spider nerf. I also agree that disintegration is really boring, and I only ever used it because it could dig. Instead of giving it a lost rod effect (I don't know if inaccuracy would work well on a wand), maybe it just needs an entirely new effect instead. Also, from the look of the commit, it seems like that's how the lightning evocable works? If it is, I hope that gets changed so that partial charges can regenerate with XP as well.
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Dec 31, 2016 13:45
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Double posting because I've got a species idea (someone else had) that I finally got into a playable (beta) state: Cynii are humanoids with the head of a dog, with origins from the eastern deserts. Cynii are unusually attracted to the dungeon, with mentions of the Orb generating blank stares, tilted heads, and involuntary drooling. Attributes: Starts with 8 STR/8 DEX/8 INT, +1 STR/DEX/INT every 5 levels, +3 MR/level +0% HP, +0 MP, +0 XP Normal size, no bodyslot restrictions Limited potential (each skill can be raised to a maximum of 12, instead of 27). All aptitudes are +5 across the board. You can download and compile from here (it isn't on a server yet, I'll ask around about it when I finish polishing it up and fixing any obvious bugs I've found once I get back from travelling): http://www.github.com/Floodkiller/crawl/tree/cynocephalus If you do playtest it, please let me know any feedback you have! Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Dec 31, 2016 |
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Dec 31, 2016 14:59
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cheetah7071 posted:If a bird can't wear a helmet, a dog shouldn't be able to either Just pretend they are flat faced dogs right now, like pugs or bulldogs. Konstantin posted:Seems like it would be really broken with Vehumet/Okawaru/Ash, unless the race was specifically coded to make their abilities ineffective. The skill raising abilities of Oka and Ash will not be going past 12 for clarity reasons: they don't go past 27, which is the cap for all other races, so it would make sense that they don't go past 12 for Cynii. I feel Oka will probably be fine, as gifts are still strong (arguably stronger when you can actually swap to a different weapon class quickly if it looks interesting) and Finesse can be used like normal or to allow you to get swings with a 2 handed weapon at a reasonable speed. Ash will probably suffer, but some people might pick it anyway for clarity and scry? I don't know. The current build already has Ash working as intended, but Oka is still boosting stats past 12 with Heroism, so I'll have to find and fix that tomorrow (I'm too tired after 10 hours of driving). Another thing I know is broken is that weapon crosstraining is also allowing skills to go past 12, so I need to fix that as well. Vehumut shouldn't be affected at all, and Sif might be slower to level without spell learning piety after they get maxed out, but I'm not concerned about either of those.
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Jan 1, 2017 02:49
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PleasingFungus posted:I'm told it's more of a pain on Windows. Following the MSYS2 instructions made it pretty painless, actually.
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Jan 1, 2017 12:59
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Updated the dog species to fix the Oka/weapon crosstraining interaction, as well as changed some other stuff around: -Aptitudes changed to +3 instead of +5; getting a maxed weapon skill by D:4 while only putting 66% XP into it is a tad too fast. -Attributes changed to 7 Str/7 Int/10 Dex to differentiate it from humans -Max skill cap changed from 12 to 14 because it was awkward for a bunch of different skills for a stopping point (like most one handed weapons, for example) and because 14 is cleaner from the perspective of being half (rounded up) of 27. I'll ask around about maybe getting it hosted on expermentals on CBRO after I've confirmed with some playtesting that I didn't break anything accidentally.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:48
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If anyone was testing the dog species (located here!), I want to inform you that I've pushed a dramatic change to the species (AKA ruined it): -Aptitudes are down from +3 to +2 -Attributes are down from 7 Str/7 Int/10 Dex to 5/5/5 -XP Attribute down from 0 to -1 I did this because, after about a dozen runs (and some other feedback), the species was so overly strong early on that they were able to stockpile all of the consumables they would have used for the late game, making that nearly trivial as well despite the skill cap. They also had a problem that the late game builds were all very similar due to the balanced, decent stats, and they had pretty much every possible skill you could want maxed. The aptitude change should still leave them flexible while putting a little extra pressure on proper skilling/skill choices, while the stat and XP attribute changes should force more build variety based on background choice, and increasing the amount of consumables used in the early game so the stockpile isn't as large later on. They may take another hit to the XP attribute (down to -2) before all is said and done, but I'm leaving it at -1 for the moment for further testing to ensure I'm not hitting them too hard.
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Jan 4, 2017 00:13
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Ferrinus posted:Why not call them gnolls? Explains why you only find those on early dungeon levels. I guess I didn't want to worry about the expected association with polearms, and also because I like Cy as a species abbreviation (plus, Gnomes/Gn already existed so they would have to take something like Go or Gl which looks dumb). Honestly, a lot of people could probably come up with something better than 'human with dog head', but I'm trying to focus more on making sure it is mechanically sound, interesting, and not broken (in either direction) first before the bikeshedding of the flavor.
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Jan 4, 2017 01:07
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And yet, on the list of top killers: #29 bat - 0.58% of deaths
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Jan 4, 2017 02:11
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tote up a bags posted:The Barachian tile isn't even green  It is for me.
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Jan 6, 2017 15:30
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Ferrinus posted:High elves might make more sense as the chill, easygoing race with really high aptitudes at anything they try their hand at but no discipline to truly master anything. If the species ends up in a place where it is likely to be added, I can ask about it and consider it during the bikeshedding phase (because human with the head of a dog was a midnight decision for flavor because I wanted to make a dog joke). However, that might just make people more upset when High Elves return but aren't exactly what they used to be.
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Jan 8, 2017 18:26
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I am Otis posted:Is the dog race in offline trunk? Dog race is currently located here (I changed the branch name because I hosed up the old one while trying to rebase without reading the instructions first  ). I talked with the admin of CBRO, who said that he would get around to putting it up on experimental sometime this weekend, but I guess he might have gotten busy so I'll ask him if he is available to put it up sometime this week.Internet Kraken posted:Weird that dpeg made it sound like it was a guaranteed thing then. Not like there haven't been races that made it further before getting axed. I think he just mentioned it because I'm talking about it a lot in #crawl-dev as I'm working on it and it was another species in development to name. It isn't any more official than a food removal patch yet.
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Jan 9, 2017 02:46
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cheetah7071 posted:To make up for the fact that we only have one elf type and one dwarf type, the new races should be reflavored as dog dwarves and frog elves  or  ?
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Jan 9, 2017 07:17
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| # ¿ May 14, 2024 16:17 |
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Cynos are now on CBRO Experimental! Drop your feedback here if you have any!
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Jan 9, 2017 14:53
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