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thechosenone
Mar 21, 2009
To be serious, I would also like to know how African americans view the election. How much worse has voter surpression efforts gotten? Have you had problems with early voting, especially compared to how it usually is?

Though I also would like to know just how racist it is that when I think of black people (specifically cool ones) I think of Morgan Freeman, and Cordozar Calvin Broadus, Jr.

(not a troll, just an idiot who just wants wants to know. sorry if this is bothering anyone and I'll stop if you want.)

(also once again not to imply that the only cool balck people are those two, just that they are the ones that come to mind first.)

thechosenone fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Nov 8, 2016

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Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

by Azathoth
Is depiction of black people in children's media an ok topic?

I mean, besides that being the gooniest goddamn question imaginable.

Koalas March
May 21, 2007



negromancer posted:

Not even close to a violation.

Shonda Rhimes has a good book,

Are you talking about The Year of Yes? That book is amazing. Also as a future black woman showrunner Shonda is basically my idol.

negromancer
Aug 20, 2014

by FactsAreUseless

thechosenone posted:

To be serious, I would also like to know how African americans view the election. How much worse has voter surpression efforts gotten? Have you had problems with early voting, especially compared to how it usually is?

Well I wasn't able to vote in this election. I didn't get a chance to register with the whole moving states and stuff, but the efforts in NC and Ohio have been worse than their usual shenanigans it seems.

Koalas March
May 21, 2007



Who What Now posted:

Is depiction of black people in children's media an ok topic?

I mean, besides that being the gooniest goddamn question imaginable.

shoot.

also Doc McStuffins is cool and good

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Mycroft Holmes posted:

So, I read this and I get that it's moral stand to talk about reparations, but quite frankly it's never going to happen. We live in a world where Donald Trump has majority white support. If only white men voted, he'd win the election. Does talking about this play into the hands of the people who push the "welfare moms" narrative?

As a white person, my perspective is: People are selfish and white people are in power. Even the most progressive white person is going to be selfishly biased to protecting their privilege because of that. Limiting the possibilities of racial justice to what white people are willing to give up is never going to be a good idea. If white people were not forced to change we would still be somewhere between chattel slavery and Jim Crow.

We, as a race and as a country, are only as progressive as we are forced to be.

Doctor Butts
May 21, 2002

Koalas March posted:

shoot.

also Doc McStuffins is cool and good

Just not the same since she runs a whole hospital now.

Lightning Knight
Feb 24, 2012

Pray for Answer

Mel Mudkiper posted:

As a white person, my perspective is: People are selfish and white people are in power. Even the most progressive white person is going to be selfishly biased to protecting their privilege because of that. Limiting the possibilities of racial justice to what white people are willing to give up is never going to be a good idea. If white people were not forced to change we would still be somewhere between chattel slavery and Jim Crow.

We, as a race and as a country, are only as progressive as we are forced to be.

Addendum: Black people don't have to convince white people reparations are a good idea. They have to convince a moderate amount of white people and Hispanic people, and shifting American demographics favor the possibility in the future.

We don't have to buy into Republican framing and we don't have to work out every solution in the context of "would the Republicans accept this if we did it this way?" The answer is no, because they're petulant children and who gives a poo poo what they think? The days of the regressive shitheel vice grip on American government are numbered.

Viola the Mad
Feb 13, 2010
Ok, I'm gonna jump in here with the first dumbass white person question.

I, a white person, would like to eventually settle and raise a family in a diverse neighborhood. However, the migration of white people to non-white neighborhoods is associated with gentrification because, uh, we do kinda gentrify the living daylights out of new neighborhoods. How can I not be a gentrifying dick if/when I move to a non-white neighborhood? (I realize that "non-white" covers many more people than blacks, but I would like to know the black perspective at the very least).

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Koalas March posted:

Are you talking about The Year of Yes? That book is amazing. Also as a future black woman showrunner Shonda is basically my idol.

I will definitely check out her book. I am not much of a tv watcher *looming ghost of pure pretension appears* but what she has managed to accomplish as a creator is amazing.

plaintiff
May 15, 2015

Mel Mudkiper posted:

As a white person, my perspective is: People are selfish and white people are in power. Even the most progressive white person is going to be selfishly biased to protecting their privilege because of that. Limiting the possibilities of racial justice to what white people are willing to give up is never going to be a good idea. If white people were not forced to change we would still be somewhere between chattel slavery and Jim Crow.

We, as a race and as a country, are only as progressive as we are forced to be.

This. The US census numbers are telling as regards things like the number of black registered voters in the South, around the time the U.S. armed forces were actually garrisoned in the South following the U.S. Civil War. When there was actual force behind the demands to knock that poo poo off. Though it's not like it stuck, given Andrew Johnson's swift backslide and later Congress's betrayal of black people.

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

by Azathoth

Koalas March posted:

shoot.

also Doc McStuffins is cool and good

The show Steven Universe has black UK singer Estelle as a main character, and although the character she voices, Garnet, isn't literally a black woman, you'd have to be a moron to say she isn't coded as such. She's generally portrayed as cool, confident, and as an emotional and intellectual rock for the other characters to cling to and bounce off of.

Me and my wife don't have kids, yet, but all our nieces and nephews of the appropriate ages love it. And the show is better than some about not having a white-dominated cast. I'm just curious what people of this thread think of it, if it's on their radar at all.


Although with one goddaughter huge in Doc McStuffins, I'm glad to see it gets a pass.

E: poo poo, "gets a pass" makes this sound like a white guilt thing, which I swear it wasn't meant to be.

Who What Now fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Nov 8, 2016

blackguy32
Oct 1, 2005

Say, do you know how to do the walk?

negromancer posted:

When I think cool black people, I think Billy Dee Williams, personally.




Mycroft Holmes posted:

So, I read this and I get that it's moral stand to talk about reparations, but quite frankly it's never going to happen. We live in a world where Donald Trump has majority white support. If only white men voted, he'd win the election. Does talking about this play into the hands of the people who push the "welfare moms" narrative? I' not saying it's wrong, and perhaps in a more enlightened time it will happen but the chances of it happening even within my lifetime are so small as to be nonexistent.

The point isn't even about reparations. It is the one thing that I can count on white liberals to lose their poo poo over. But you often hear people do want to support reparations, but it's totally reparations in the way "we" like. There never is any conversation about going forward with the study over the damage that these institutions caused or what a good jumping off point is. It's always about, let me just guess how to absolve our legacy of slavery and it is always "rising tide lifts all boats" bullshit.

Who What Now posted:

The show Steven Universe has black UK singer Estelle as a main character, and although the character she voices, Garnet, isn't literally a black woman, you'd have to be a moron to say she isn't coded as such. She's generally portrayed as cool, confident, and as an emotional and intellectual rock for the other characters to cling to and bounce off of.


From what little I have seen of it, it is a great show. I would watch more of it if Cartoon Network was any good about releasing dvd seasons. But Garnet is easily the most well adjusted out of all the gems.

blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Nov 8, 2016

AriadneThread
Feb 17, 2011

The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.


negromancer posted:

Not even close to a violation.

Shonda Rhimes has a good book, pretty much anything by bell hooks, and there were tons of suggestions in the last thread.


can i also recommend amié césaire and his essay discourse on colonialism. if you're like me you'll have to read a translation unless you know french. my copy was translated by joan pinkham

Koalas March
May 21, 2007



Lightning Knight posted:

Addendum: Black people don't have to convince white people reparations are a good idea. They have to convince a moderate amount of white people and Hispanic people, and shifting American demographics favor the possibility in the future.

We don't have to buy into Republican framing and we don't have to work out every solution in the context of "would the Republicans accept this if we did it this way?" The answer is no, because they're petulant children and who gives a poo poo what they think? The days of the regressive shitheel vice grip on American government are numbered.

I don't think we could convince a lot of hispanics honestly. There's a whole lot of colorism among latin@s (about a third of my family, although not myself is from El Savador so I'm speaking using my experiences with them and others) and a lot of people feel like they also got hosed over by white people, can be hugely racist against black people and dark skinned poc of any kind and would resist a lot on the basis of "Well we didn't do chattel slavery in the US, so why should our tax money go there?"

like literally my cousin has a black daughter an her husband used to call her a friend of the family to both of their faces. Maybe it's just my lovely family, although from talking to a lot of my latin@ friends it doesn't seem to be.

thechosenone
Mar 21, 2009

negromancer posted:

Not even close to a violation.

Shonda Rhimes has a good book, pretty much anything by bell hooks, and there were tons of suggestions in the last thread.


Morgan Freeman fell off my personal cool list when he went on that "racism doesn't exist" rant.

When I think cool black people, I think Billy Dee Williams, personally.

Oh...darn. I'm sad to hear that. What about Cordozar Calvin Broadus, Jr., is he still cool?

Also holy poo poo that dude's hair is like SSJ Goku to Fabio's 100% power final form Frieza (I don't even know what I'm saying, except that he seems to have nice hair).

thechosenone fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Nov 8, 2016

plaintiff
May 15, 2015

blackguy32 posted:



The point isn't even about reparations. It is the one thing that I can count on white liberals to lose their poo poo over. But you often hear people do want to support reparations, but it's totally reparations in the way "we" like. There never is any conversation about going forward with the study over the damage that these institutions caused or what a good jumping off point is. It's always about, let me just guess how to absolve our legacy of slavery and it is always "rising tide lifts all boats" bullshit.

Yep. What alternatives to Congressional sanction exist to discovering the realistic beginnings of reparations? Is that bill that gets ritually shot down every year really our only avenue to real reparations talk seeing the light of day?

Lightning Knight
Feb 24, 2012

Pray for Answer

Koalas March posted:

I don't think we could convince a lot of hispanics honestly. There's a whole lot of colorism among latin@s (about a third of my family, although not myself is from El Savador so I'm speaking using my experiences with them and others) and a lot of people feel like they also got hosed over by white people, can be hugely racist against black people and dark skinned poc of any kind and would resist a lot on the basis of "Well we didn't do chattel slavery in the US, so why should our tax money go there?"

like literally my cousin has a black daughter an her husband used to call her a friend of the family to both of their faces. Maybe it's just my lovely family, although from talking to a lot of my latin@ friends it doesn't seem to be.

This is absolutely not just your family, my dad's side is from Mexico and he, his brother, and his mom are varying degrees of racist against pretty much everybody else.

That said, almost everyone in my generation (third) didn't follow, so I am optimistic about younger generations of Hispanics being less lovely, if not necessarily amazing. Like I'm not saying we're going to get full reparations now when the time comes for demographic shift, but we won't get anything if we (meaning white liberals) don't fight alongside black people for it.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Koalas March posted:

I don't think we could convince a lot of hispanics honestly. There's a whole lot of colorism among latin@s (about a third of my family, although not myself is from El Savador so I'm speaking using my experiences with them and others) and a lot of people feel like they also got hosed over by white people, can be hugely racist against black people and dark skinned poc of any kind and would resist a lot on the basis of "Well we didn't do chattel slavery in the US, so why should our tax money go there?"

like literally my cousin has a black daughter an her husband used to call her a friend of the family to both of their faces. Maybe it's just my lovely family, although from talking to a lot of my latin@ friends it doesn't seem to be.

I wonder how much of it is the broadness of latinx as an ethnic designation. Like, realistically speaking latinx doesn't mean much as an ethnic qualifier. It encompasses mestizo/a, chicano/a, indio/a, etc.

AriadneThread
Feb 17, 2011

The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.


Koalas March posted:

I don't think we could convince a lot of hispanics honestly. There's a whole lot of colorism among latin@s (about a third of my family, although not myself is from El Savador so I'm speaking using my experiences with them and others) and a lot of people feel like they also got hosed over by white people, can be hugely racist against black people and dark skinned poc of any kind and would resist a lot on the basis of "Well we didn't do chattel slavery in the US, so why should our tax money go there?"

like literally my cousin has a black daughter an her husband used to call her a friend of the family to both of their faces. Maybe it's just my lovely family, although from talking to a lot of my latin@ friends it doesn't seem to be.

i've noticed, at least in uh, white(?) circles this assumption that all minority groups are going to be on the same progressive side
which uh... hrm seems to betray a lack of understanding of people in general really

Koalas March
May 21, 2007



Mel Mudkiper posted:

I wonder how much of it is the broadness of latinx as an ethnic designation. Like, realistically speaking latinx doesn't mean much as an ethnic qualifier. It encompasses mestizo/a, chicano/a, indio/a, etc.

Yes, this is something that I am still trying to learn. Like some members of my family only consider mestiz@ or chican@ as latin@. It's very interesting.

blackguy32
Oct 1, 2005

Say, do you know how to do the walk?

MC Smoke Sensei posted:

Yep. What alternatives to Congressional sanction exist to discovering the realistic beginnings of reparations? Is that bill that gets ritually shot down every year really our only avenue to real reparations talk seeing the light of day?

I mean to go forward with something like this, I think it would be smart at least to launch a government study on it, even if you don't go through with reparations.

thechosenone
Mar 21, 2009
I always figured that people who belonged to a minority group at least weren't AS racist (on average), due to having experienced being on the receiving end of discrimination themselves. Is this an incorrect idea? (also is it racist for me to think of Cordozar Calvin Broadus, Jr. when I think of cool black people? I have for some reason latched onto this, and since I have received no resistance to the idea of asking, and am just curious.).

I feel like I'm really enjoying this thread already. I enjoy being able to ask people who have had significantly different life experiences from me about their perspectives on things.

(once again, if people get tired of me asking questions, I'll gladly stop. I don't want to cause any problems).

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Koalas March posted:

Yes, this is something that I am still trying to learn. Like some members of my family only consider mestiz@ or chican@ as latin@. It's very interesting.

Its interesting, because Latin America is basically what would have happened if the United States had settled for rape instead of genocide for the native population and then codified the offspring.

Mycroft Holmes
Mar 26, 2010

by Azathoth

blackguy32 posted:

The point isn't even about reparations. It is the one thing that I can count on white liberals to lose their poo poo over. But you often hear people do want to support reparations, but it's totally reparations in the way "we" like. There never is any conversation about going forward with the study over the damage that these institutions caused or what a good jumping off point is. It's always about, let me just guess how to absolve our legacy of slavery and it is always "rising tide lifts all boats" bullshit.

Oh, well I'm surprised there hasn't been a study on that, honestly. Yeah I'd support a study. It would probably be the worst thing I've read since Gerneralplan Ost, though.

thechosenone
Mar 21, 2009
What do African American folks in this thread even think Reparations should even BE? Because I don't even know where they would start.

thechosenone fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Nov 8, 2016

djw175
Apr 23, 2012

by zen death robot
Edit: Nah, I been talking too much about myself in these threads. Suffice to say, Beyoncé is hella cool.

djw175 fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Nov 8, 2016

Koalas March
May 21, 2007



thechosenone posted:

What do African American folks in this thread even think Reparations should even BE? Because I don't even know where they would start.

Speaking for myself obviously but chattel slavery was a terrible thing and we are still living with the ramifications of it, Jim Crow and the institutional racism that followed.

America was literally built on the backs of my people. For free. We deserve payment.

negromancer
Aug 20, 2014

by FactsAreUseless

Koalas March posted:

Speaking for myself obviously but chattel slavery was a terrible thing and we are still living with the ramifications of it, Jim Crow and the institutional racism that followed.

America was literally built on the backs of my people. For free. We deserve payment.

At least let us not pay taxes and our kids not pay taxes, and their kids not pay taxes.

Also free college for those 3 generations as well, at any school we get in.

3 generations of tax free income adds the gently caress up.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Koalas March posted:

Speaking for myself obviously but chattel slavery was a terrible thing and we are still living with the ramifications of it, Jim Crow and the institutional racism that followed.

America was literally built on the backs of my people. For free. We deserve payment.

Yeah, I think one of the misconceptions that white people have about reparations is that its supposed to be some kind of lump sum to say "sorry about slavery"

It's not. Reparations would have to be, at least, a multi-generational investment in every level of infrastructure in black communities.

negromancer
Aug 20, 2014

by FactsAreUseless

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Yeah, I think one of the misconceptions that white people have about reparations is that its supposed to be some kind of lump sum to say "sorry about slavery"

It's not. Reparations would have to be, at least, a multi-generational investment in every level of infrastructure in black communities.

This as well.

Lightning Knight
Feb 24, 2012

Pray for Answer

negromancer posted:

At least let us not pay taxes and our kids not pay taxes, and their kids not pay taxes.

Also free college for those 3 generations as well, at any school we get in.

3 generations of tax free income adds the gently caress up.

I asked you about this another time and you mentioned home ownership, and imo from an econ perspective home ownership would be a safer investment than tax free income. Tax free income would wildly fluctuate in usefulness depending if you're actually employed and how much you make, etc., whereas working aggressively to get black people their own nice homes that they own and don't have to answer to banks or the government for would go a long way towards securing long-term prosperity for black families.

We could do both, mind you, I'm just saying that if we had to boil it down to like pick two and that's it, a quality education and a nice home to live in would be my picks to secure long term economic prospects for any family from a policy perspective. This comes with the fringe benefit that it's easier to frame "home ownership and education!" in positive American Dream terms than "no taxes!" when most of the country already doesn't believe black people pay taxes as it is, though that's tertiary at best.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.
new name huh?

blackguy32
Oct 1, 2005

Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Mel Mudkiper posted:

new name huh?

I just noticed that as well. I like it.

negromancer
Aug 20, 2014

by FactsAreUseless

Lightning Knight posted:

I asked you about this another time and you mentioned home ownership, and imo from an econ perspective home ownership would be a safer investment than tax free income. Tax free income would wildly fluctuate in usefulness depending if you're actually employed and how much you make, etc., whereas working aggressively to get black people their own nice homes that they own and don't have to answer to banks or the government for would go a long way towards securing long-term prosperity for black families.

We could do both, mind you, I'm just saying that if we had to boil it down to like pick two and that's it, a quality education and a nice home to live in would be my picks to secure long term economic prospects for any family from a policy perspective. This comes with the fringe benefit that it's easier to frame "home ownership and education!" in positive American Dream terms than "no taxes!" when most of the country already doesn't believe black people pay taxes as it is, though that's tertiary at best.

I can see that.

Like I said then, I haven't really sat down and thought it through what reparations would look like.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

new name huh?

Yep, courtesy of an awesome mod.

AlouetteNR
Jun 6, 2011

thechosenone posted:

What do African American folks in this thread even think Reparations should even BE? Because I don't even know where they would start.

The actual form would be an immensely complicated, argued over political problem which would likely last a generation to figure out. That said, a problem being complicated is a terrible reason not to consider it, if we didn't want to tackle complex problems we'd all be libertarians. Also, a serious part of the problem is how flippantly the whole idea is treated by a large (white) segment of the population.

Lightning Knight
Feb 24, 2012

Pray for Answer

negromancer posted:

I can see that.

Like I said then, I haven't really sat down and thought it through what reparations would look like.

Oh that's fair, I was just making an observation. I am of the mind that we should come at reparations more as a matter of trying to help black people now, because no amount of money or things can make up for the blood, sweat, and tears of millions of dead slaves and former slaves we let fall through the cracks in the formation of this country. Also, semi-related, I'm also thinking in terms of stimulus policy, which reparations would actually be super awesome stimulus policy, and in general stimulus policy works better when managed in concrete terms of "get people to buy or use x" instead of throwing out free money in the form of tax breaks because it's easier to direct that way and ensures that people benefit from it.

I would also argue that poor people would benefit more from home ownership than low taxes when they probably don't pay that much in taxes as it is, at least in terms of federal taxes.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

negromancer posted:

Like I said then, I haven't really sat down and thought it through what reparations would look like.

I mean, its hard. How do you put a clear estimate on the collective wealth of the richest country on earth, as well as the lost wealth from additional generations of housing and employment discrimination?

True reparations might even be objectively impossible because it could argued that American blacks are owed more wealth than the United States as a country even has.

negromancer
Aug 20, 2014

by FactsAreUseless

Lightning Knight posted:

Oh that's fair, I was just making an observation. I am of the mind that we should come at reparations more as a matter of trying to help black people now, because no amount of money or things can make up for the blood, sweat, and tears of millions of dead slaves and former slaves we let fall through the cracks in the formation of this country. Also, semi-related, I'm also thinking in terms of stimulus policy, which reparations would actually be super awesome stimulus policy, and in general stimulus policy works better when managed in concrete terms of "get people to buy or use x" instead of throwing out free money in the form of tax breaks because it's easier to direct that way and ensures that people benefit from it.

I would also argue that poor people would benefit more from home ownership than low taxes when they probably don't pay that much in taxes as it is, at least in terms of federal taxes.

The funny thing is that you get a lot of "sins of the father" arguments against reparations, but when you show them how they are still sinning and benefiting from those sins, that tends to shut them down right quick.

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CroatianAlzheimers
Jun 15, 2009

I can't remember why I'm mad at you...


Koalas March posted:

also Doc McStuffins is cool and good

Confirmed. My (white, Slavic) daughters love Doc McStuffins.

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