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negromancer posted:but when you show them how they are still sinning and benefiting from those sins, that tends to shut them down right quick. you say that but http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3760929 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3787021
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Nov 8, 2016 03:15
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Viola the Mad posted:Ok, I'm gonna jump in here with the first dumbass white person question. Hi, I'd also be interested in any perspectives on this question, if anyone's interested in sharing.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:19
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Viola the Mad posted:Ok, I'm gonna jump in here with the first dumbass white person question. Here's a good start - A Caucasian's Guide to Black Neighborhoods
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Nov 8, 2016 03:21
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Properly funding the schools mostly attended by black children would at least be a start, and is something we could (and should) do right the hell now. Did you know that Billy Dee Williams becomes the President of white people in a video game? It's true.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:21
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Mel Mudkiper posted:you say that but Oh I'm sure, but that's online. In person they turn into a sputtering mess. But they are going to go quietly about it. It should definitely happen, and the fact that it gets talked about as a political issue, when we can't even get the government to issue an apology in the same way these did victims of Japanese internment, shows we have a long way to go.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:23
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Yeah, I was just going to say to leave all that white poo poo back where you came from. Not really something you can do, but usually when people gentrify, they bring all the poo poo that they like instead of actually investing in the neighborhood stuff.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:23
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blackguy32 posted:Yeah, I was just going to say to leave all that white poo poo back where you came from. Not really something you can do, but usually when people gentrify, they bring all the poo poo that they like instead of actually investing in the neighborhood stuff. Or just let us move to yall neighborhoods and you stay where you're at. If we can fix that problem, then we might be less uptight about gentrification.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:26
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This thread just makes me think about my ex. She was Kenyan and it was from her that I learned Africans hate american blacks for some reason.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:28
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Yeah, I think one of the misconceptions that white people have about reparations is that its supposed to be some kind of lump sum to say "sorry about slavery" Can you put a rough dollar value on this in today's dollars?
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Nov 8, 2016 03:30
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Mycroft Holmes posted:This thread just makes me think about my ex. She was Kenyan and it was from her that I learned Africans hate american blacks for some reason. The "some reason" is the export of American culture, and one of the things we export is only allowing black people to play criminals and thugs, and our news which paints us all as such. They think that when they get here they can be "separate" from us and ingratiate themselves with the white power structure as "not one of those American blacks", but find out eventually that they are just another friend of the family to them just like us, just a friend of the family with an accent. The Oldest Man posted:Can you put a rough dollar value on this in today's dollars? 
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Nov 8, 2016 03:30
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CroatianAlzheimers posted:Here's a good start - A Caucasian's Guide to Black Neighborhoods It's odd how much that reminds me of home.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:32
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The Oldest Man posted:Can you put a rough dollar value on this in today's dollars? all of it?
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Nov 8, 2016 03:33
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The Oldest Man posted:Can you put a rough dollar value on this in today's dollars? I think this is putting the cart before the horse. negromancer posted:The "some reason" is the export of American culture, and one of the things we export is only allowing black people to play criminals and thugs, and our news which paints us all as such. They think that when they get here they can be "separate" from us and ingratiate themselves with the white power structure as "not one of those American blacks", but find out eventually that they are just another friend of the family to them just like us, just a friend of the family with an accent. Also, a lot of people that immigrate here are pretty well off compared to American born black people.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:33
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The Oldest Man posted:Can you put a rough dollar value on this in today's dollars? I'm going to assume you meant a rough dollar value in terms of realistic modern reparations and give you an actual serious answer, and I would guess we could spend something on the order of 50 to 200 billion dollars on a broad program of black education, homeownership, job programs, decriminalization, and other myriad programs, and probably make a sizeable dent in black poverty without breaking the bank. That's relatively speaking a lot of money, but it's not some absurdly huge amount the US Government couldn't afford. For a frame of reference, that would be the equivalent of five to twenty aircraft carriers. We don't need more aircraft carriers. We need black people to have a future they can believe in. Edit: For the sake of clarity, by "decriminalization," I mean the process of getting non-violent offenders and victims of three strikes/mandatory minimums, etc., etc., out of the system and reintegrated into society.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:36
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blackguy32 posted:I think this is putting the cart before the horse. Right, they also like to compare themselves, the lucky and fortunate 1% that can get the gently caress out of their country to our poorest and go "this is why we're so awesome, why can't black people in the US get it together?" Then just point out how our poorest have refrigerators and their poorest don't know what the hell one is, and that shuts them up right quick.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:35
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negromancer posted:Right, they also like to compare themselves, the lucky and fortunate 1% that can get the gently caress out of their country to our poorest and go "this is why we're so awesome, why can't black people in the US get it together?" There was an interesting story on NPR a few weeks ago about a black American who faked being Kenyan for his entire first semester at an almost all-white college and how white people loved to hang out with him because he was an "exotic" black person and not a "normal" black person.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:41
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Mycroft Holmes posted:This thread just makes me think about my ex. She was Kenyan and it was from her that I learned Africans hate american blacks for some reason. you might be interested in carl phillips' the atlantic sound the later third of the book touches on this kind of thing i thought i still had my copy but i can't seem to find it
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Nov 8, 2016 03:42
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Mel Mudkiper posted:There was an interesting story on NPR a few weeks ago about a black American who faked being Kenyan for his entire first semester at an almost all-white college and how white people loved to hang out with him because he was an "exotic" black person and not a "normal" black person. That reminds me of when I was in Ireland for 3 weeks on this NATO thing, and I was hanging out with British military intel guys and SAS dudes (scary rear end bastards), and while there I picked up an Irish accent and couldn't drop it for like 3 months. LET. ME. TELL. YOU. White women loved me for those 3 months.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:44
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm going to assume you meant a rough dollar value in terms of realistic modern reparations and give you an actual serious answer, and I would guess we could spend something on the order of 50 to 200 billion dollars on a broad program of black education, homeownership, job programs, decriminalization, and other myriad programs, and probably make a sizeable dent in black poverty without breaking the bank. That's relatively speaking a lot of money, but it's not some absurdly huge amount the US Government couldn't afford. For a frame of reference, that would be the equivalent of five to twenty aircraft carriers. We don't need more aircraft carriers. We need black people to have a future they can believe in. I suppose I was thinking of a debt-pricing approach. I'm curious if anyone has done the math on what the inflation and interest-adjusted value of slavery is/was over its lifetime existence in the US.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:45
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Regarding reparations, I think one of the biggest obstacles is the absurd attachment that people have to their tax dollars, even after they've sent their tax money to the government. "Why should I have to pay black people for poo poo? I'm not descended from slave owners, etc." Well, good news: you won't have to! You're not being asked to write a check to Random Black Person for historical crimes, you're just sending taxes to the government like always, and the government is distributing some of those taxes in the form of reparations, whatever form that might take. It's not your money, it's not my money, it's the government's money, and the government essentially holds that money for the use and improvement of society, and it is our society as a whole that owes the black community for things like slavery and disenfranchisement.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:47
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negromancer posted:That reminds me of when I was in Ireland for 3 weeks on this NATO thing, and I was hanging out with British military intel guys and SAS dudes (scary rear end bastards), and while there I picked up an Irish accent and couldn't drop it for like 3 months. I have a good friend who is black and from Ireland and according to him his accent is the finest aphrodisiac on the planet. Evidence supports his theory.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:46
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The Oldest Man posted:I suppose I was thinking of a debt-pricing approach. I'm curious if anyone has done the math on what the inflation and interest-adjusted value of slavery is/was over its lifetime existence in the US. Oh. I'm kind of drunk right now but if I recall correctly at the point of the Civil War the "property" value of slaves was literally more than the land value of the country at the time so whatever it is it's probably astronomical. edit: quote:Regarding reparations, I think one of the biggest obstacles is the absurd attachment that people have to their tax dollars, even after they've sent their tax money to the government. People in general are incapable of comprehending the idea that it stops being "your" money once it goes to someone else. It's the same dumb logic that causes religious people to get mad at funding for birth control.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:47
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The Oldest Man posted:I suppose I was thinking of a debt-pricing approach. I'm curious if anyone has done the math on what the inflation and interest-adjusted value of slavery is/was over its lifetime existence in the US. I mean we can look at the typical overhead for a business producing cotton today, how many man-hours, adjust for inflation, and then triple it because of you know, the whole raping, beating, and killing thing, and we can come to a nice good number. ImpAtom posted:I have a good friend who is black and from Ireland and according to him his accent is the finest aphrodisiac on the planet. Evidence supports his theory. I sounded like Colin Farell for 3 months and I hated/loved it.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:47
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I think that reparations number is lowballing. It should be at least as much as was wasted on the F35. So about 2 Trillion dollars invested in homes and education for POC. Taken right out of loving Wall Street because of how much money that particular institution has scammed POC out of just in the last few decades. Thats my idiot white person suggestion, but I suspect even that is still lowballing. Edit: There really should be a study done just so we could see how depressing the restitution required really is. Some Pinko Commie fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Nov 8, 2016 |
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Nov 8, 2016 03:49
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ImpAtom posted:I have a good friend who is black and from Ireland and according to him his accent is the finest aphrodisiac on the planet. Evidence supports his theory. I am engaged to an Irish dude and can confirm this. Idk who to blame tbh. I read Angela's Ashes a lot as a preteen? That's all I got.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:50
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biracial bear for uncut posted:I think that reparations number is lowballing. Well, the value of all the slaves in 1860 exceeded the material wealth of the country outside of slavery, so yeah, probably lowballing. That and the whole destruction of actual towns like Black Wall Street in the early 20th century, yeah we got some money coming.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:50
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biracial bear for uncut posted:I think that reparations number is lowballing. I mean it's totally lowballing, we should be spending trillions on alleviating poverty in general and compressing wealth inequality. We'd need a study to know how much we should truly spend on reparations but certain jackasses in Congress are blocking it. Assholes.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:50
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm going to assume you meant a rough dollar value in terms of realistic modern reparations and give you an actual serious answer, and I would guess we could spend something on the order of 50 to 200 billion dollars on a broad program of black education, homeownership, job programs, decriminalization, and other myriad programs, and probably make a sizeable dent in black poverty without breaking the bank. That's relatively speaking a lot of money, but it's not some absurdly huge amount the US Government couldn't afford. For a frame of reference, that would be the equivalent of five to twenty aircraft carriers. We don't need more aircraft carriers. We need black people to have a future they can believe in. For another context, we will spend an additional $400B on veterans benefits from Iraq alone. That's not even the actual cost of that war. Just the increase in Vet benefits. Although I would really want to see the alternative reality media freak when a planeload of $12B in shrinkwrapped bills gets lost in Atlanta or Oakland.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:54
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Trabisnikof posted:For another context, we will spend an additional $400B on veterans benefits from Iraq alone. That's not even the actual cost of that war. Just the increase in Vet benefits. drat really? I was hella lowballing wow. Yeah gently caress it let's spend a trillion dollars on reparations. http://www.nber.org/chapters/c0606.pdf https://www.measuringworth.com/slavery.php Here are two economic studies, the first from 1962 and the second from 2011, on how much slavery might have been worth in contemporary money. This was from just Googling it and I'm drunk so take it with a grain of salt, but make of it what you will.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:56
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When I went to Ireland I was there for twenty minutes and got asked for directions I was home  negromancer posted:Well, the value of all the slaves in 1860 exceeded the material wealth of the country outside of slavery, so yeah, probably lowballing. Yeah, I mean. The literal ENTIRE WEALTH of the United States was built off the foundation of slave labor. Even the wealth that came from industry and trade was only possible because of the wealth earned from slave labor. The whole root of American prosperity was slavery. And then you add to that how black Americans were explicitly locked out from that wealth post-slavery by housing and employment discrimination. Objectively the number is higher than is actually materially possible. The fairest solution would be just to give people of color the keys to the country and we collectively get on our boats and gently caress off back to Europe.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:57
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I thought somewhere a report was drawn up that showed that the wasted military expenditures of the last decade could house/educate the entire US population for the next twenty years. If that actually exists and isnt a fever dream of mine, it shouldn't be too difficult to adapt to a reparations study.
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Nov 8, 2016 03:59
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Trabisnikof posted:For another context, we will spend an additional $400B on veterans benefits from Iraq alone. That's not even the actual cost of that war. Just the increase in Vet benefits. 
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Nov 8, 2016 03:59
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Mel Mudkiper posted:
well f we're talking in that direction, the native americans might have something to add on that account we'd have been a nation built on native slavery if we hadn't kept killing them with all our filthy farmyard animal jumped diseases
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Nov 8, 2016 04:01
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The fairest solution would be just to give people of color the keys to the country and we collectively get on our boats and gently caress off back to Europe. We don't get to bail until we fix the mess we made.
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Nov 8, 2016 04:01
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I've gotten hints of it through media, but what are some of the intergenerational issues that exist between different older and younger African-Americans? A lot of it seems to be tied to respectability politics but I assume it's more complicated than that.
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Nov 8, 2016 04:08
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Dreylad posted:I've gotten hints of it through media, but what are some of the intergenerational issues that exist between different older and younger African-Americans? A lot of it seems to be tied to respectability politics but I assume it's more complicated than that. Respectability politics combined with the whole "if you go to college you're guaranteed a good job like the white folks!", which has not borne fruit in a lot of cases. http://www.recode.net/2016/8/22/12577444/tristan-walker-and-company-bevel-razor-diversity-culture-fit-podcast http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/...panic/14684211/ https://42hire.com/the-big-lie-tech-companies-and-diversity-hiring-f52fb82abfbf#.l8th894mj
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Nov 8, 2016 04:12
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Aren't there a ton of corporations still around today that benefitted from slave labor? Surely they can find a way to help as well.
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Nov 8, 2016 04:19
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negromancer posted:The "some reason" is the export of American culture, and one of the things we export is only allowing black people to play criminals and thugs, and our news which paints us all as such. They think that when they get here they can be "separate" from us and ingratiate themselves with the white power structure as "not one of those American blacks", but find out eventually that they are just another friend of the family to them just like us, just a friend of the family with an accent. Is this similar reasoning to why Carribean Islanders emphasize where they're from? Not that I'm implying that there is some conflict there. Carribean Islander of course not being a very useful term anyway since there's plenty of latinx, white, native and asian people from the Carribean anyway.
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Nov 8, 2016 04:26
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Eej posted:Is this similar reasoning to why Carribean Islanders emphasize where they're from? Not that I'm implying that there is some conflict there. Carribean Islander of course not being a very useful term anyway since there's plenty of latinx, white, native and asian people from the Carribean anyway. It's part of it. A lot of them have had their own struggles with colonialism (my girlfriend lived in Jamaica until she was 7 and tells me new poo poo all the time) and they have their own cultural pride within the African diaspora.
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Nov 8, 2016 04:28
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm going to assume you meant a rough dollar value in terms of realistic modern reparations and give you an actual serious answer, and I would guess we could spend something on the order of 50 to 200 billion dollars on a broad program of black education, homeownership, job programs, decriminalization, and other myriad programs, and probably make a sizeable dent in black poverty without breaking the bank. That's relatively speaking a lot of money, but it's not some absurdly huge amount the US Government couldn't afford. For a frame of reference, that would be the equivalent of five to twenty aircraft carriers. We don't need more aircraft carriers. We need black people to have a future they can believe in. I think the reparations question is an interesting one. I am coming to this thread as someone who is neither black nor American, so I will obviously miss a lot of the nuance and emotion that go along with the topic: how it feels to have the knowledge that your ancestors may have been slaves and that you may deal every day with the descendants of slave owners, the specifics of racism in America, and so on. Of course my country of birth (the UK) also benefited and continues to benefit from exploiting black people so maybe there is some common ground. Disclaimer aside, it seems to me that to look for a dollar value for reparations is to miss the point. I'm taking it as read that reparations are a necessary and a good idea, but the purpose is surely to give black people in America (and other groups that have suffered similar oppression, Native Americans spring to mind) the same opportunities and advantages that white people enjoy, and to try to level the playing field after many generations of economic and social discrimination. Simplistically, you could give every black person in the USA $100,000 (or whatever the appropriate number is decided to be), but that does nothing to address the wider issues that exist in that society, and the other disadvantages that black people face will mean that in a couple of generations, with a few lucky exceptions, things will likely be back to where they were before. Same with giving out houses or similar - and houses have the added problem that they're probably not going to be in good areas for work, schools etc., and even less so once all the white people leave. I don't say that some direct financial reparation is necessarily useless, but what is needed is what would be needed in any case: robust policy to combat systemic discrimination, maybe in part through strong affirmative action in education and work, and wider social change to reduce poverty and inequality in general. The interesting Atlantic article that was linked earlier suggests to me that racism has always had a partial but strong economic component - black people were explicitly forced into the role of an underclass of cheap labour to be exploited for profit. At the same time, poor and uneducated white people tend to be more racist (without suggesting that rich, well educated people can't be every bit as racist), so a general goal of improving education and reducing poverty would likely go some way towards reducing racism while improving the lot of the disproportionately poor black population. I know that sounds a bit like rewarding racist white people for their racism, but I think the benefits outweigh concerns like that. When people are not on the poverty line they don't worry so much about finding an outgroup to blame for their troubles and it is more difficult to divide and turn the working class on itself to act against its best interests. At that point, financial compensation can actually have a useful long term effect, because you're not going to lose it all immediately to racist education, work and housing policy. Another possibility would be to strongly increase inheritance tax and clamp down on means of evading it, with exemptions for black people. That would also help level the playing field by ensuring that those who benefited from slavery are less able to hold on to their advantage while those who suffered from it have an opportunity to catch up. It's less direct but maybe plays more into the American Dream of the self made individual pulling themselves up by sheer force of will or whatever. I guess what I'm saying overall is that socialism is the answer to the economic problem. The other problems are more difficult and are only partially addressed by what I've suggested. As to how you would actually effect any of these policies in a country which hates poor people probably even more than it hates PoC, I have no idea.
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Nov 8, 2016 04:34
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