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negromancer
Aug 20, 2014

by FactsAreUseless

big scary monsters posted:


I guess what I'm saying overall is that socialism is the answer to the economic problem. The other problems are more difficult and are only partially addressed by what I've suggested. As to how you would actually effect any of these policies in a country which hates poor people probably even more than it hates PoC, I have no idea.

Eh, yes and no.

One of the reasons Bernie couldn't capture the minority vote was because of his socialist "a rising tide lifts all boats", which isn't worth a hot gently caress in a garbage chute if you don't have a boat to begin with.

But for the rest of it, you make a lot of really good points. Thanks for your contribution.

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GhostofJohnMuir
Aug 14, 2014

anime is not good
I think all of these discussions of a dollar amount for slavery shows the real utility of that Coates article, you can just look back on things within living memory and for which more recent and accurate data is available. Calculate the value of federal programs which dispensed money in a racist fashion and give out a similar inflation adjusted benefit to excluded minority communities. Such a program would benefit from a more apples to apples comparison of damage to payout and many victims are still alive, both factors which helped with reparations paid to the Japanese who were interned. This kind of approach shuts down a lot of the hand wringing waffling that people find room for when talking about reparations for slavery. Seeing drives for minimum wage increases and reforms to the justice system gain so much attention and ground in the last few years makes me slightly optimistic about a similar drive based around reparations for red lining or other institutional racism.

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

negromancer posted:

Right here in my bookmarks!

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

edit: beaten by the white man again like its 1853.

I just read this whole thing while watching Game Change on HBO and holy gently caress does that shake you to the core about this country. I really can't understand the mindset that just because the "original sin" happened in the past somehow modern beneficiaries of it (whites) don't owe anything to the victims. If I murdered your family and stole all their stuff and became a billionaire off of my takings, you an sure as poo poo best that your kids can sue my kids for the harm. Why does a couple extra generations removed make a difference? Can white americans literally not handle feeling bad about their ancestors' choices for 5 seconds?

The Oldest Man posted:

I suppose I was thinking of a debt-pricing approach. I'm curious if anyone has done the math on what the inflation and interest-adjusted value of slavery is/was over its lifetime existence in the US.

I think this is a fruitless way to approach the issue because the question isn't "how do we pay back black people for the literal price their ancestors were bought and sold for?", the question is "How do we repair the extreme damage wrought by 400 years of slavery, segregation, and discrimination?" and the answer to that question has very little to do with whatever price tag you could attach to the institution of slavery as practiced in the US.

Jonas Albrecht posted:

Aren't there a ton of corporations still around today that benefitted from slave labor? Surely they can find a way to help as well.

If you read to the end of the article above, you'll see that plenty of such corporations are still around (Aetna sold insurance policies on slaves) and lawsuits against them have failed repeatedly. They're not gonna help out of the kindness of their hearts. When the gently caress has that ever happened? I'm a nice sympathetic white(-looking) trans lady and I can't even get our insurance to cover SRS or in-vitro fertilization, two things that are absolutely critical to my immediate circumstances because it would cost them 5 cents extra out of their quarterly bottom line. There's certainly more on the line for a company like that in acknowledging the total of their contributions to the systemic destruction of black lives and opportunities for hundreds of years. Corporations won't do poo poo until the government makes them, and the government won't do poo poo until white americans actually internalize the idea that they have benefited from a game that was not only stacked in their favor, but had a No Coloreds sign hung over the table until last week.

BigRed0427
Mar 23, 2007

There's no one I'd rather be than me.

blackguy32 posted:

From what little I have seen of it, it is a great show. I would watch more of it if Cartoon Network was any good about releasing dvd seasons. But Garnet is easily the most well adjusted out of all the gems.

The entire show so far is up on iTunes.

About The case for Reparations article. Cotes mentions that black people effectively could not use the GI Bill after WW2 to buy homes for themselves. It's been awhile since I read the article but what were the mechanics of Red-lining because I don't remember if he covered that.

And maybe this is the best place to ask: Are there any books or anything else that covers the rise of the Southern Strategy, Identity Politics int he US, or the political fallout of the passage of the Civil rights bill?

And has anyone seen Moonlight? A theater in CT is finally going to show it this weekend.

big scary monsters posted:

I guess what I'm saying overall is that socialism is the answer to the economic problem. The other problems are more difficult and are only partially addressed by what I've suggested. As to how you would actually effect any of these policies in a country which hates poor people probably even more than it hates PoC, I have no idea.

No offense to you, but I REALLY have grown to hate this line of thinking. "No war but class war" Is basically All Lives Matter for Marxist. We had a very recent re-reg int he LGBT thread argue that the LGBT Rights movement and the left in general wasted a bunch of time and resources on the Gay Marriage fight to the point where we are probably not getting Universal Health Care, When that would have benefited the LGBT community more during the AIDS Epidemic. Any kind of socialist reforms are meaningless if we cannot combat inherent bigotry people have that could limit access and care these programs provide.

BigRed0427 fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Nov 8, 2016

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

BigRed0427 posted:

The entire show so far is up on iTunes.

About The case for Reparations article. Cotes mentions that black people effectively could not use the GI Bill after WW2 to buy homes for themselves. It's been awhile since I read the article but what were the mechanics of Red-lining because I don't remember if he covered that.

And maybe this is the best place to ask: Are there any books or anything else that covers the rise of the Southern Strategy, Identity Politics int he US, or the political fallout of the passage of the Civil rights bill?

And has anyone seen Moonlight? A theater in CT is finally going to show it this weekend.

Redlining comes in many forms, from communities having rules literally restricting deed sales to acceptable races only to banks refusing to give you a loan unless it is in the "right" neighborhood for your race. Another trick banks would do is basically only offer lovely loans so minorities would be forced to buy hazardous/damaged homes from the bank. It is also used to mean when businesses use geography as a proxy to refuse service on racist grounds (see Uber's treat delivery service maps for a recent example)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

big scary monsters
Sep 2, 2011

-~Skullwave~-

negromancer posted:

Eh, yes and no.

One of the reasons Bernie couldn't capture the minority vote was because of his socialist "a rising tide lifts all boats", which isn't worth a hot gently caress in a garbage chute if you don't have a boat to begin with.

But for the rest of it, you make a lot of really good points. Thanks for your contribution.

Ah ok, I sort of intentionally have not followed the US elections so I don't know much about Bernie's ideas or their popularity among minorities. I take the point though that for instance better pay and employment protection don't help if you can't get a job.

Anyway the WoC thread has been interesting to follow, I hope this one is successful too.

e:

BigRed0427 posted:

No offense to you, but I REALLY have grown to hate this line of thinking. "No war but class war" Is basically All Lives Matter for Marxist. We had a very recent re-reg int he LGBT thread argue that the LGBT Rights movement and the left in general wasted a bunch of time and resources on the Gay Marriage fight to the point where we are probably not getting Universal Health Care, When that would have benefited the LGBT community more during the AIDS Epidemic. Any kind of socialist reforms are meaningless if we cannot combat inherent bigotry people have that could limit access and care these programs provide.

I was specifically trying to avoid that class war line because I realise that it is not the only issue here and Marxism has its own problems in its approach to minorities, both historically and currently. My point was that "inherent" bigotry, and specifically slavery, is in part an economic phenomenon, and to make reparations effective you need to consider a wider context than just throwing a bunch of money at the problem.

I don't want to derail the thread in that direction so I'll leave it here.

big scary monsters fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Nov 8, 2016

GhostofJohnMuir
Aug 14, 2014

anime is not good

big scary monsters posted:

I guess what I'm saying overall is that socialism is the answer to the economic problem. The other problems are more difficult and are only partially addressed by what I've suggested. As to how you would actually effect any of these policies in a country which hates poor people probably even more than it hates PoC, I have no idea.

This is a common idea from the left for obvious reasons, but to me it rings hollow in a lot of ways. For instance, in the early 1960's white Americans overall were enjoying an economic experience not seen before or since. In the midst of this rising tide came a push for civil rights legislation and a stronger safety net for black communities, both things that President Johnson ended up moving forward. The extended reactionary backlash was so strong that I feel we're barely starting to crawl out from under it in the present day. It didn't matter that the system meant more equitable income for poor and middle class whites if the shiftless blacks were going to mooch of off it, it was better to destroy the entire thing.

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

big scary monsters posted:

Ah ok, I sort of intentionally have not followed the US elections so I don't know much about Bernie's ideas or their popularity among minorities. I take the point though that for instance better pay and employment protection don't help if you can't get a job.

Anyway the WoC thread has been interesting to follow, I hope this one is successful too.

Basically if there is a way to turn an otherwise good idea into another tool for systematic racism, America has almost always tried really really hard to do it that way. See: public education.

We managed to turn the idea of "educate kids no matter their race" into a school to prison pipeline that is incredibly selective for non-white kids.

plaintiff
May 15, 2015

Trabisnikof posted:

Basically if there is a way to turn an otherwise good idea into another tool for systematic racism, America has almost always tried really really hard to do it that way. See: public education.

We managed to turn the idea of "educate kids no matter their race" into a school to prison pipeline that is incredibly selective for non-white kids.

Holy gently caress, our school system. As someone with several generations back teaching in US public schools (specifically Louisiana public schools), and now working towards a job there myself, the topic of this thread is very much of interest to me. I've read some books and taken a black history course, and I came up through grade school in majority black public schools, but that's the extent of my knowledge on the topic, not being black myself. Following these discussions is important to me, as I feel I have a duty to my community and everyone in it, and definitely will have a duty to my community's kids if I wind up going down the path I've set. Most of those kids will be black, and I don't want to fail them.

negromancer
Aug 20, 2014

by FactsAreUseless

MC Smoke Sensei posted:

Holy gently caress, our school system. As someone with several generations back teaching in US public schools (specifically Louisiana public schools), and now working towards a job there myself, the topic of this thread is very much of interest to me. I've read some books and taken a black history course, and I came up through grade school in majority black public schools, but that's the extent of my knowledge on the topic, not being black myself. Following these discussions is important to me, as I feel I have a duty to my community and everyone in it, and definitely will have a duty to my community's kids if I wind up going down the path I've set. Most of those kids will be black, and I don't want to fail them.

Well pull up a chair, sit back, relax, and enjoy!

Welcome to Negrotown!

Huzanko
Aug 4, 2015

by FactsAreUseless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO_pbtgnmm0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj-ZYPVRQbc

Huzanko fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Nov 8, 2016

blackguy32
Oct 1, 2005

Say, do you know how to do the walk?
I would just like to say, gently caress the Harambe meme. People think they are so hilarious whenever its brought up but it was never really all that funny.

On a positive note, I love the movie Dope. A movie about a black nerd character getting himself into a predicament and trying to figure his way out of it. The world needs more black nerd characters. We do exist.

Huzanko
Aug 4, 2015

by FactsAreUseless

blackguy32 posted:

I would just like to say, gently caress the Harambe meme. People think they are so hilarious whenever its brought up but it was never really all that funny.

On a positive note, I love the movie Dope. A movie about a black nerd character getting himself into a predicament and trying to figure his way out of it. The world needs more black nerd characters. We do exist.

Dope is a really good movie.

Trailer if you haven't seen it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L41xwM8tIRQ

negromancer
Aug 20, 2014

by FactsAreUseless

blackguy32 posted:

I would just like to say, gently caress the Harambe meme. People think they are so hilarious whenever its brought up but it was never really all that funny.

On a positive note, I love the movie Dope. A movie about a black nerd character getting himself into a predicament and trying to figure his way out of it. The world needs more black nerd characters. We do exist.

I hated the Harambe meme because it really showed how white people care more about the life of literally any animal over a black life.

Huzanko
Aug 4, 2015

by FactsAreUseless
double post

Huzanko fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Nov 8, 2016

Huzanko
Aug 4, 2015

by FactsAreUseless
It's been a while, but what do you think of Larry Wilmore getting canceled because he "doesn't resonate with comedy central's audience?" It sounded like coded language to me.

negromancer
Aug 20, 2014

by FactsAreUseless

Huzanko posted:

It's been a while, but what do you think of Larry Wilmore getting canceled because he "doesn't resonate with comedy central's audience?" It sounded like coded language to me.

I thought his show was great, personally.

I got to go backstage and get the full VIP treatment due to my best friend Felonious Munk being a regular guest on there.

https://www.instagram.com/blacktonystarks/

You can see pictures of it around 26 weeks ago. I don't take many pictures.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

negromancer posted:

I thought his show was great, personally.

I got to go backstage and get the full VIP treatment due to my best friend Felonious Munk being a regular guest on there.

https://www.instagram.com/blacktonystarks/

You can see pictures of it around 26 weeks ago. I don't take many pictures.

*me scanning through your photos*

Whoa wait... is that MVP?

negromancer
Aug 20, 2014

by FactsAreUseless

Mel Mudkiper posted:

*me scanning through your photos*

Whoa wait... is that MVP?

Yessir. He was down in Ferguson.

He told me I shouldn't have given up on wanting to be a pro wrestler in high school.

Such a cool rear end dude.

Huzanko
Aug 4, 2015

by FactsAreUseless

negromancer posted:

I thought his show was great, personally.

I got to go backstage and get the full VIP treatment due to my best friend Felonious Munk being a regular guest on there.

https://www.instagram.com/blacktonystarks/

You can see pictures of it around 26 weeks ago. I don't take many pictures.

Awesome! Thanks for the link.

The Nightly Show was just about the only Comedy Central show I watched (on YouTube and the CC website) and I am bummed that that it isn't on anymore. I really like Wilmore's delivery and I enjoyed him on the Daily Show as well. I hope he, and hopefully other folks from the Nightly show, get a show on another network, or online.

sidenote: rad USB stick - https://www.instagram.com/p/BE6mrYFsE1e/?taken-by=blacktonystarks

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

negromancer posted:

Yessir. He was down in Ferguson.

He told me I shouldn't have given up on wanting to be a pro wrestler in high school.

Such a cool rear end dude.

We're gonna need to chat pro wrestling and Marvel comics sometime

negromancer
Aug 20, 2014

by FactsAreUseless

Mel Mudkiper posted:

We're gonna need to chat pro wrestling and Marvel comics sometime

As you can see, I'm very into Marvel.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

negromancer posted:

As you can see, I'm very into Marvel.

Yeah I got that impression haha

Doctor Butts
May 21, 2002


I don't think I live in one of these neighborhoods. Then again, I'm too shy to find out.

Overall, I need to get over myself and take a chance and wander around to try out some of the barbershops in town, the eateries.

plaintiff
May 15, 2015

negromancer posted:

Well pull up a chair, sit back, relax, and enjoy!

Welcome to Negrotown!

Yeah, the first goal is to learn to laugh about it all without laughing AT it, I guess? Because the first black history course I took was the usual history nerd fare (Kingdom of Mali, West African culture, etc.), and then the mass chattel slavery starts up and it all just got depressing as poo poo. There really is nothing like that first moment of :stonk: as the professor begins telling you about all the horrifying poo poo that happened to those people. It just becomes NEW AND MORE COMPLICATED FLAVORS OF AWFUL poo poo TOO, FOR THE REST OF HISTORY WOOOOOO

edit: Though the biggest thing I've taken from that course was that the historiographical bent of black history has been moving towards "what have black people done for themselves?" instead of the previous question, "what did slavery/oppression do to black people", which came after the ever-delightful "what did slavery do for black people", which apparently is still being trotted out today???????

plaintiff fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Nov 8, 2016

Huzanko
Aug 4, 2015

by FactsAreUseless

BigRed0427 posted:

The entire show so far is up on iTunes.

About The case for Reparations article. Cotes mentions that black people effectively could not use the GI Bill after WW2 to buy homes for themselves. It's been awhile since I read the article but what were the mechanics of Red-lining because I don't remember if he covered that.

And maybe this is the best place to ask: Are there any books or anything else that covers the rise of the Southern Strategy, Identity Politics int he US, or the political fallout of the passage of the Civil rights bill?

And has anyone seen Moonlight? A theater in CT is finally going to show it this weekend.


No offense to you, but I REALLY have grown to hate this line of thinking. "No war but class war" Is basically All Lives Matter for Marxist. We had a very recent re-reg int he LGBT thread argue that the LGBT Rights movement and the left in general wasted a bunch of time and resources on the Gay Marriage fight to the point where we are probably not getting Universal Health Care, When that would have benefited the LGBT community more during the AIDS Epidemic. Any kind of socialist reforms are meaningless if we cannot combat inherent bigotry people have that could limit access and care these programs provide.

I shouldn't be but I'm surprised more leftists don't see that leftist socialist programs and reforms are held back by bigotry, racism, fear of the other, etc. You can't get socialist reforms without addressing systemic racism; it's just not possible. If you can't get cops to stop shooting people for no reason; you're very far from any kind of socialist utopia.

Push El Burrito
May 9, 2006

Soiled Meat
Where is Negrotown located geographically? I'm looking at AirBNB and they don't mention it at all. In fact, I don't see any black people in any of these pictures.

Panfilo
Aug 27, 2011

EXISTENCE IS PAIN😬
I was curious about what happens when two different systems of privilege collide; do racist brains get some kind of floating point error?

The police have enormous privilege; and white people will idolize them and feel like their actions are completely justified.

White victims of violence have enormous privilege as well - if a white kid dies, it's a national tragedy. Their actions leading up to their death are often taken at face value, lawsuits and legislation are quick to follow.

So what happens when you get a race - reversed Tamir Rice incident? A uniformed black police officer shoots and kills a white kid playing with a toy gun. Will the privilege of being an officer override the privilege of being a white victim? Will the officer's colleagues and union stand behind him with the same vigor as a white officer? Could we expect the same degree of victim blaming levied at the child, or will he be deified for being an innocent victim of police misconduct?

unwantedplatypus
Sep 6, 2012

Panfilo posted:

I was curious about what happens when two different systems of privilege collide; do racist brains get some kind of floating point error?

The police have enormous privilege; and white people will idolize them and feel like their actions are completely justified.

White victims of violence have enormous privilege as well - if a white kid dies, it's a national tragedy. Their actions leading up to their death are often taken at face value, lawsuits and legislation are quick to follow.

So what happens when you get a race - reversed Tamir Rice incident? A uniformed black police officer shoots and kills a white kid playing with a toy gun. Will the privilege of being an officer override the privilege of being a white victim? Will the officer's colleagues and union stand behind him with the same vigor as a white officer? Could we expect the same degree of victim blaming levied at the child, or will he be deified for being an innocent victim of police misconduct?

I'm pretty sure that police privilege is just an extension of white privilege. So in that example the black officer would be quickly charged and punished.

negromancer
Aug 20, 2014

by FactsAreUseless

BROCK LESBIAN posted:

Where is Negrotown located geographically? I'm looking at AirBNB and they don't mention it at all. In fact, I don't see any black people in any of these pictures.

We only rent on NoireBnB.

Panfilo posted:

I was curious about what happens when two different systems of privilege collide; do racist brains get some kind of floating point error?

The police have enormous privilege; and white people will idolize them and feel like their actions are completely justified.

White victims of violence have enormous privilege as well - if a white kid dies, it's a national tragedy. Their actions leading up to their death are often taken at face value, lawsuits and legislation are quick to follow.

So what happens when you get a race - reversed Tamir Rice incident? A uniformed black police officer shoots and kills a white kid playing with a toy gun. Will the privilege of being an officer override the privilege of being a white victim? Will the officer's colleagues and union stand behind him with the same vigor as a white officer? Could we expect the same degree of victim blaming levied at the child, or will he be deified for being an innocent victim of police misconduct?

You had a white police officer shoot a 4 year old white kid at a traffic stop and kill him, and the only group that gave a poo poo was BLM.

So...who knows?

xthetenth
Dec 30, 2012

Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

Huzanko posted:

I shouldn't be but I'm surprised more leftists don't see that leftist socialist programs and reforms are held back by bigotry, racism, fear of the other, etc. You can't get socialist reforms without addressing systemic racism; it's just not possible. If you can't get cops to stop shooting people for no reason; you're very far from any kind of socialist utopia.

Yep, even if you accept the premise that racism is a construction to divide and conquer, that should making working on stamping it out a prerequisite, rather than coming up with some bullshit about how people's actual lives are a real distraction from The Cause™ and letting the division happen.

Tiny Brontosaurus
Aug 1, 2013

by Lowtax
Hi hello I am black and I have an important black question which is:

Where is the Rick Ross diner

Sharkie
Feb 4, 2013

by Fluffdaddy

Panfilo posted:

So what happens when you get a race - reversed Tamir Rice incident? A uniformed black police officer shoots and kills a white kid playing with a toy gun. Will the privilege of being an officer override the privilege of being a white victim? Will the officer's colleagues and union stand behind him with the same vigor as a white officer? Could we expect the same degree of victim blaming levied at the child, or will he be deified for being an innocent victim of police misconduct?

What happens is, at least as far as the racist public is concerned, is it gets turned into a tool to shout down BLM. It gets turned into "See, white people aren't rioting over this," "The media won't cover this story!" etc. The logic of it doesn't matter.

edit: source: Facebook.

Asimov
Feb 15, 2016

It will be "The O. J. Simpson murder case (officially the People of the State of California v. Orenthal James Simpson)" version 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal
There are two #5s in the OP. :P

PupsOfWar
Dec 6, 2013

negromancer posted:


You had a white police officer shoot a 4 year old white kid at a traffic stop and kill him, and the only group that gave a poo poo was BLM.

So...who knows?

at this point I genuinely believe 80-90% of cops sign up because it's the most readily-available legal way to wave guns at people and commit violence

Panfilo
Aug 27, 2011

EXISTENCE IS PAIN😬

unwantedplatypus posted:

I'm pretty sure that police privilege is just an extension of white privilege. So in that example the black officer would be quickly charged and punished.

But wouldn't singling him out jeopardize all the white police officers when their own conduct gets called into question eventually? I thought the blue wall of silence would prevail in this situation?

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.

Panfilo posted:

But wouldn't singling him out jeopardize all the white police officers when their own conduct gets called into question eventually? I thought the blue wall of silence would prevail in this situation?

Nope. The Black/Female/Minority Cop gets hung out to dry and then later used as an example as "No really guys the system works that one person got 3 years of jail"

PupsOfWar
Dec 6, 2013

Sharkie posted:

What happens is, at least as far as the racist public is concerned, is it gets turned into a tool to shout down BLM. It gets turned into "See, white people aren't rioting over this," "The media won't cover this story!" etc. The logic of it doesn't matter.

edit: source: Facebook.

I recall that, after Trayvon Martin's murder, some white people on social media started passing around a story where a black man - Roderick Scott - had shot and killed a white teen in self-defense. The general tone being "See, nobody's rioting about this! Why can't you be rational like us whites?"

the fact that the white teen was with two accomplices and had been provably interrupted in the middle of vandalism/theft escaped people

as did the fact that, unlike george zimmerman, scott was arrested and brought to trial, and had to work to clear himself.

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Rick_Hunter
Jan 5, 2004

My guys are still fighting the hard fight!
(weapons, shields and drones are still online!)

BROCK LESBIAN posted:

Where is Negrotown located geographically? I'm looking at AirBNB and they don't mention it at all. In fact, I don't see any black people in any of these pictures.

It's a lot like Springfield from the Simpsons: Everywhere and yet nowhere.

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