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unwantedplatypus posted:What is the state of LGBT issues in the black community? Black masculinity is ultra fragile, and black women are ultra - pained by being the least desired group of women on the planet, and black people are still closely tied to their Southern Christian heritage, so, absolutely terrible still. There have been more and more moves to normalize LGBT things with black people, but there is high resistance for the aforementioned reasons.
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Nov 8, 2016 15:24
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I do wonder how fair it is to try and claim the black community is uniquely bigoted towards the LGBT community. The black community is subject to the same social forces pushing LGBT hatred as white America is. Is there really a unique issue in the black community or is it just that LGBT hatred is an issue in American culture, and the black community exists within American culture like everyone else? The lower the income and the more inner city, the more hypermasculinity is pushed. That statistically applies to black people to a large degree, and even when one does not belong to that group themselves, they are often one generation removed from it due to not being allowed out of it until the 70s. Southern Protestants focus more on sin than most other brands of Christianity, and purposely harp on homosxuality since it's a "safe" sin that does not apply to a large portion of its members (unlike things like gluttony or fornication). Black people are statistically more Southern Protestant, or one generation removed from that. Black people have extremely low rates of marriage and have large problems with finding others to date. It becomes easy to blame outside sources for this. Black people are often naturally paranoid at outside sources attempting to control them as a group and many are prone to conspiracy theories. Many easily latch on to a homosexual agenda for that reason. It's basically a combination of a group being part of so many demographics that lend itself to this type of thinking. It's uniquely high and powerful to this demographic because of that combination.
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Nov 8, 2016 16:59
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PT6A posted:Wait, the kid that got into the enclosure was black? I don't remember that being mentioned in literally any of the news stories about it. Basically, it started out as people arguing about whether the parent was at fault or not. Then it was released that the kid was black and more people mysteriously started thinking the parent was at fault.
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Nov 8, 2016 17:05
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I come from poor as gently caress rural Appalachia though and literally all of those things also apply to white homophobia. Pennsyltucky is a vastly majority white community but because its poor and isolated it also struggles with hypermasculinity, religion, low marriage rates, and outsider paranoia. I wonder how fair it is to consider it a "black" problem when it seems to be universal to any isolated and impoverished community. The difference is that the vast majority of black people come from one place as opposed to being isolated in different pockets. Black people generally came from nothing in the South, and having that brand of Christianity forced on them. Then a good portion moved to the cities for work and were forced into pockets of poor inner cities. Because of the unique way in which they spread, as opposed to the "whole" of white people. It's something that touches more of them as a percentage than white people, making it a more unique issue.
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Nov 8, 2016 17:14
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Go look at #WhiteGirlWednesday or #WhiteGirlsDoItBetter. Black men very frequently treat black women as less desirable than white women. The reasons for this are super complicated and I will leave it to better posters than me to go into, but black men have internalized societal dislike of black women's appearance quite a bit. Attraction to that degree is based more on experience than anything else, and black men are naturally more attracted to black women than anyone else because they grow up around them, in general, and thus have more positive points of relation to them than other people do. While they have the same media as everyone else that tells them white is the best (outside of the subservient Asian exotics!), this is at least somewhat offset by growing up and having enough positive relationships with black women to relate more good things to their looks than the norm. However, there are still a few large issues that cause black men to go for other races at times. A few are things like: - Black MALES are subconsciously viewed as "not as good as" for DATING as well, when it comes to other races, and this easily creates complexes with them, especially as they go through upward mobility. The annoyance of seeing white people/people of other races who are doing worse than them in practically every single way, still get more attraction and access to more women creates a large annoyance that can often turn into a complex. Then they start trying to "beat" those guys in getting "better" women than them, which ends up meaning what society thinks of as better, which often leaves black women behind. As a huge anecdote, I think every black male who I've met that is rich/upper middle class has confided being affected by this to some degree to me. "Bootstrapping" oneself up and still having things not allowed to people through no fault of their own often creates complexes about whatever the fault is. (Not unique to black males at all, and happens among many minorities) - Black men who have had a lot of negative experiences with outsource that into blame. Think the nerdy guy who can't get a date because of his own fault, and then rages against all women. It's basically these same guys, but now it's about race as opposed to girls not wanting nice guys or whatever. - It's still impossible to not have media representation of beauty affect you at all, and some black men, even with tons of positive black women around them growing up, view them as inferior just as everyone else does.
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Nov 8, 2016 17:49
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negromancer posted:This exactly. And it doesn't matter really how you feel about black women if you're making 6 figures or more, because the numbers game catches you eventually. What do you mean here? (I'm just not quite sure which angle you're coming from)
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Nov 8, 2016 18:19
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woke wedding drone posted:This is getting into pick-up artist theorizing territory. Happens a lot with black men. As I stated before, being a black man of any stature is harder than dating as a nerdy white man, so when things don't "work," people start making theories on how to beat the system and over thinking things. edit: Not even as in black men turn into pick up artists, it's more like, "what the gently caress more can I do to be as happy in relationships as other people around me SEEM," and that results in overanalyzing every single thing.
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Nov 8, 2016 21:10
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negromancer posted:Yep, when its usually the simplest answer, like "you moved to an all white town, did you expect black women to fall from the sky?" Speaking from personal example, I used to over-theorize a lot when I was young - there's even history of it in this forum under my old name. I don't just date "in my race" because I don't really care about race, so my experiences my vary from others but a basic history is: - Nerdy guy in all black inner city schools, nobody liked me until high school when being quirky and artistic was kind of cool. Was kind of screwed up due to having no practice at all until then, so oh well. - College guy living with parents with only a little money but started to get some attention from the black women who weren't interested in school as that goes. - Moved to the suburbs in mostly white areas in my 20s. Made base middle class income with tech job woes in the early 2000s. This was my first time really experiencing a racial imbalance in attraction since I was in Detroit until then. Got annoyed, tried to figure out that poo poo and did the "I want the superficial quality of my peers" thing. Basically went on a ten year short term dating and sex binge, theorycrafting, trying to hard to improve myself in every single aspect ever, so on and so forth. - This is when I ran into the "a decent amount of educated black women give me attention, but the same ratio does not with any other race." Got super mad about it and tried to get even better at everything/tried to make more money because I hated the idea that I was being judged on a scale in which I was handicapped, and tried to break the handicap. - Got to 30s, basically worked myself into being low end rich. Realized that no matter how much more I "got," I would still be annoyed because it wouldn't be the same as my immediate peers in the same bracket, and I would always try to get more. - Mostly leveled out in my mid-late 30s, stopped dating and hooking up for the most part, period, just do my own thing and try to advise younger guys around me that are going down my same path to level out and just focus on themselves because they'll never be able to "win" in that system, and they'll just drive themselves crazy. When it comes to dating, we are always kind of at a handicap among women that are not black. Black women are the only ones that see us as-is, as a whole, as well as vice versa. But as we get older, due to income/education disparity, the professional options for both sexes within our own race drop dramatically. Our blackness is typically always an issue with any other race, whether they just subconsciously aren't attracted to our race, have physical attraction but over-worry about the social issues with actually dating us, or have a special attraction and fetish for us, which is kind of annoying as well. There are some that see us as just a normal guy and don't really see our race in that manner, but it's so few and far between, relatively, that it makes it a huge hassle to even -look- to date, so I don't even bother any more. No reason to focus on it, so why bother. Every blue moon, though, the frustration comes back, normally after too much drinking.
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Nov 8, 2016 21:33
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Doctor Butts posted:How should one dress if they want to attract a quality black woman? negromancer posted:Apaprently this is fine Ehhhhh.... I would just say dress in a way in which you are comfortable that matches the general attitude of the kind of person you want. That's kind of overthinking things; there are no rules. I do wear a lot of sports coats or suits in new situations, just to throw anyone around me off, not just about dating. That way I immediately establish myself as "not a ghetto black person but a professional one" and get better service, reaction, etc. wherever I go.
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Nov 8, 2016 21:45
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I'm worried and everyone around me is too, just because we realize how many people in this country hate people like me and that there's no real way around it. I have no idea what to even do at this point or where to run to.
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Nov 9, 2016 08:29
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blackguy32 posted:I guess the new narrative is going to be that if Bernie Sanders were nominated, then Trump would have lost which is a pretty dumb narrative, especially since we aren't even sure that people of color would have turned out for him. Black people didn't turn out for him in the primaries. That's the issue. The Alt Right was successful in making black people distrust the Democratic Party, and that has showed itself in how they/we vote. It would have been worse for him in the general, because at least older black women like Clinton.
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Nov 9, 2016 08:31
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Talmonis posted:Are the reports that Trump got a higher number of Black and Latino voters than Romney true? If so, what the hell happened? Yes. The right convinced minorities that Hillary was the true racist. For instance, black people in my area were constantly sharing memes about Hillary calling black kids superpredators (removing the nuance of the statement), that she is responsible for there being no black fathers due to the prison system AND being responsible for their jobs leaving via NAFTA. Trump's racism is focused on those OTHER people, so... Not that many voted for him at all, still, but that's part of why some did. A lot of black men feel untouchable just like white males, after all, as well.
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Nov 9, 2016 21:01
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I missed the coddling discussion because I've been on one long post-election bender, but in late response to some of the thoughts, here is a cross-post from a Facebook status I made the day after the election to call out my white friends:me posted:Minorities and gay people and other oppressed groups have been telling straight white liberals how bad it was for years. We asked you to confront your bigoted friends and family directly, to ostracize them, to risk ruining relationships and friendships to help make the world a better place for us. "No," you said, "we'll just be nice to them and hope they change over time." "They are good people inside, they are nice to me, so they will be good when it all counts." You thought we were being dramatic and irrational and that a nice, lovey, non confrontational route that made you not have to deal with a taste of the feeling of loss we feel our entire lives was the best way, while we stood alone confronting them ourselves.
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Nov 10, 2016 17:18
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Yeah, i said that earlier, but I basically just quit dating because I didn't even feel like dealing with it any more. If I met someone along the way, all well and good, but I don't believe I will or even try to. Knowing the handicap I have gives me too much of a complex which makes it too hard for me to date, on the other side, so it's just messed up.
Darko fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 15:05
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Prowler posted:So, why have y'all had such a difficult time dating black women? For me, most of the time, I represented husband material. Except the whole agnostic thing, which got me (actual quote) "sorry, my babies need to me raised with Jesus in their lives" type responses or lack thereof a vast majority of the time. There's also the physical and personality thing for other black women, but it seemingly otherwise always boiled down to religion. I live in the Detroit area, where there is a huge amount of poverty in the area, and the demographic of that is mostly black. I'm also in my mid/late 30s. Black women that are attractive/maintain their health, have common interests with me and education get "taken" by white men with black fetishes when they're in their 20s. All that are left are those that I would not be attracted to. I get the BBW thing as well. This is a really touchy thing becaue you don't want to be too physically judgy, but there's the issue that you know they wouldn't message a white guy in your same position with the same frequency. If I was messaged by the super hot, fit, educated women that messaged my white friend with practically the EXACT same basic stats (income/height/weight/education/politics/religion/hair) as me on the site and very similar profiles, I wouldn't care. But the issue is, I was NOT messaged by them at anywhere near the same frequency, but was blown up by large white women constantly. It becomes a serious case of "what the gently caress," and you cannot help but get angry about it. I've dated every race, myself, and Indian/Asian/Middle Eastern is typically the roughest because (a) they typically don't even see you as a dating prospect in anywhere near the same frequency as black and white women, and (b) even if they do, there's like a 99% chance of their parents judging the hell out of you above and beyond the normal, as opposed to the 65% chance with white.
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Nov 13, 2016 15:26
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Marijuana Nihilist posted:Online dating is garbage and attracts the most lovely people, especially the ones who dont think it's racist to exclude whole demographics from their dating pool I disagree because I worked on the back end of online dating sites. Online dating draws normal people who think they're just putting a search preference out there on sites like OKC (pre OKC removing the race preference category from visibility because it resulted in minorities not contacting people that excluded them) or Match, not realizing that it broadcasts that preference to whoever looks at their profile. It's about as close as you can get to a double blind test when it comes to dating. Just like people couldn't realize why people who otherwise seemed so nice and normal screamed All Lives Matter and voted for Trump, they don't realize that most normal people around them "don't prefer" to date a black guy. The "most lovely people" are people that have been online forever and can't find a date or who are on and off all the time or who actually write dating preferences in there, but the numbers of "normal" people who have done a month on Match or tried Tinder for a bit and either met someone and gotten into a relationship, or didn't meet someone and quit are ridiculously high. And those people are the ones that are only searching for white men and putting a white preference on their profile, or subconsciously swiping every black man left on Tinder.
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Nov 13, 2016 17:25
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negromancer posted:Not to be unsympathetic to what you guys are talking about, but... It depends on demographic and situation. Most black people that "date black people" grow up in black areas, meet someone relatively young, and end up with them/date them. Or they end up in black areas, and date who is around them. To date black outside of the pockets where black people live take special effort and an actual preference to date black people, or searching for them. In works that way with many minorities. If you grow up black and don't end up with anyone around you, and are looking to date in your late 20s or 30s after moving into a predominately white area, you aren't going to see very many eligible black women to date. And then, when you start looking for things like "not religious," "no kids," etc., it drops even further because a proportionately higher percentage of a smaller pool of women will be "taken" in those categories because white men who do fetishize them snatch them up. I don't/didn't date women "because they were" any race, so when you aren't particularly looking for anything in richer, whiter neighborhoods, or places where the black people around are generally lower income, and you're not, it takes special effort to find eligible black women.
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Nov 13, 2016 17:41
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Buschmaki posted:You didn't need to write the multiple paragraphs about why you don't date black women. Apparently so, because when explained why it happens all of the time in the first post, someone still said it was "weird." And also: Darko posted:I've dated every race, myself, Darko fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 17:57
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:What the gently caress, you assholes. If you can't talk about dating without being paint-peelingly misogynistic you don't need to be talking about dating in here. Women are human beings. We're talking about numbers and sweeping demographics - not individuals. I don't see any misogyny as I have talked/seen the reverse dating trends being talked about in the same way. I may have missed something, though - can you point out any examples of any misogyny?
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Nov 13, 2016 18:16
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central dogma posted:Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but wanting to date someone who is not religious and has no kids is some kind of fetish for a white man? No, black people are statistically are more religious and more likely to be single mothers, especially in urban areas. Being a black person (male or female) who is not religious puts you in a minority of black people as is. it also makes you more likely to be college educated, etc. Where you will run into more white people unless you go to a black school. And when you're done with college, you typically don't move back to the inner city. Which means you're a lot more likely to meet less black people in your life's path. Not nearly all, and no way to prove the percentage, but many white men fetishize black women. We know, because we hear some of the ones that -do- go after black women's "locker room talk," where, in being "cool" to us, they tell us how much they love/there's something special about a black woman. You hear the same about Asian/minority women as well. And these guys often end up dating or being with young, attractive, educated, non-Christian black women. Just as many of the same types of white men end up with the most Americanized Asian women.
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Nov 13, 2016 18:24
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I'm not even playing this poo poo you loving dickheads. Imagine someone in here going "where's the racism?" "we're just talking numbers and sweeping demographics." Again, point out a specific instance if you see a problem. I'll directly apologize for anything I personally said that is actually misogynist. Saying "trends go like this" has nothing at all to do with disrespecting the humanity in other people. Black women are not the only people who have a problem "finding someone," black men who no longer exist in the stereotypical black experience due to education and success do, as well. And it oftentimes has nothing to do with the stereotype of rejecting black women and wanting other races, but that we become situational minorities, no longer always around people of our own race, but rejected out of sight by the races around us. If someone asks the details of "why," you explain how the demographics shift as you do, which means talking in blanket terms. Minorities don't date like other races, especially black people, as many of us grow up in pockets of poverty or lower middle class situations, which shifts how it works for us, as compared to white people, entirely. Explaining the conflicting trends of a comparison of the situations between those demographics is talking specifically about that, and not about individuals and their individual situation.
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Nov 13, 2016 18:32
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:WOMEN ARE PEOPLE YOU loving SHITSTAIN. They are not "taken." They are not THINGS. They are loving PEOPLE. That's why I put quotes around those terms when I used them (there's a chance I missed one, but I did it constantly to draw that distinction). The quotes indicated that it was using the colloquial term for familiarity and how it is generally viewed and not using my actual phrasing. EDIT: The point of using those terms is to show the effects that it ends up having. When other races don't like you and the only race that does like you ends up going with the majority, the general feeling among black people on both sides of the aisle is that their men/women are being "taken" away. Even if it is not the case in all instances, it can often come to feel that white men and women are using their privilege as an advantage over you to take away the chances you could have had, which is why those terms are often used. Darko fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 18:34
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:The quoted words are far from the only problem with what you've been saying, you dehumanizing prick. Why didn't you guys have the same problem with me when I made the exact same defense for black women in the other thread? Dark0 posted:Detroit is possibly the worst (major) city for a black woman or man to date.
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Nov 13, 2016 18:46
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Lightning Knight posted:I feel like at least part of the problem here is that you felt the need to go "ew gross fat girls wanted to have sex with me" and that's uh, that's kinda not cool bro. That was the other guy not me. I said I understood the gut feeling he was referring to - you see the comparisons with the guys around you, which causes you to focus on the difference in response, but that it wasn't something that should be singled out either. I work in marketing so I'm always talking in wide strokes about demographics/looks/weight/whatever, so me talking about general preference is not necessarily me talking about my personal preference, which I never said. I also worked with marketing in dating sites and know directly how these things are categorized in the numbers and in response. I know this can be sensitive for a lot of people, but I was just trying to give the overriding perspective from those angles on top of personal experience. I'll bow out of this particular discussion now. edit: quick response: K Prime posted:here's a hint darko- all of your justifications, including that one, ignore the agency of the women in question. they are entirely centered on why you and people like you can't get a date and ignore the thoughts of the women entirely. That's the difference. I'm not talking about -the woman-; I'm talking about the trends of thousands of people at once. Darko fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 18:52
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Quit doubling down! What the gently caress is wrong with you? Why can't you loving get this? I believe you that you can't see the problem. But there is one, and you need to have enough fundamental respect for other people to believe it exists. Stop loving making it worse! Shut up and loving learn so maybe you will be less of a godawful misogynist tomorrow. Because, and not even talking about dating anymore, my focus on making things better is to see the wholes, how people generally think about those things in the big picture, and then find ways to effect the change on that thinking at once. That involves categorizing and trending more than it does the individual experience - and that's generally my framing. A lot of people use a wide framing to explain why they don't have PERSONAL success, which is not what I was doing; I'm talking almost purely about broad trends besides sticking a personal anecdote in there from time to time. This is not about -me- and -my- dating outside of the peppered anecdotes. I apologize that my sperginess and data driven way of viewing things came off as misogynist, and in retrospect, it was a bad idea to come in all data driven in threads where people were focusing mainly on personal experiences. edit: I assure you, I don't see women as trends and possessions to be won and lost in my personal dealings. However, I have found that the only way to explain to white men, especially, that don't understand why black men and women don't just bootstrap them up to dating success since they happen to know some INDIVIDUAL that is attracted to black people, or see black people together, is to use the examples of large numbers and categories to let them see how chances as a whole just drop. I often have to fight their anecdotes with wider trends. It actually tends to have somewhat of a positive effect as it gets them to empathize. Darko fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 19:02
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K Prime posted:That still isn't it. Like, let me rewrite one of your posts to the way I'd have done the perspective to see if I can explain- (I am also a dude so please stop if I'm wrong here anybody watching.) That's better phrasing for much of that, I agree. I thought I had already determined the context from prior posts as talking about some of the things I had run into in the past and relating it to his personal experience, and then bridging it to the wider views - but it's too far removed from the earlier posting to have the proper context - so that makes more sense now. Thanks for quoting it in context to show me exactly what was being referred to. To roll it back, I had an earlier post in the thread that shows that I went through the typical stages of "black man dating grief," including many of the misogynistic - edging viewpoints that I'm being accused of now. Those anecdotes are from various stages being referred to, and how it made me feel, as a black male, at those times, and not referring to me right now. I don't feel any annoyance when anyone at all messages me like I did in the past, I don't categorize women as super hot on a personal level, etc., among other things stated above. Sorry about that, I will try to better watch my phrasing in general. I know understand the points being levied against me, and apologize again, for coming off that way. The only thing that is "current" from that is my current perception of having dated various races, and how I ended up being seen and viewed by their parents, etc. edited for clarity Darko fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 19:20
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This has nothing to do with accepting a lesser charge from someone else. I specifically asked you to quote what was being referred to, as I realized I could be stuck in my own train of thought and not realize what was being referred to and would apologize if necessary or made a mistake. You refused to because "it was my job to see my own misogyny." He actually quoted things in context so I could understand how others were seeing it. It's not about male or female, or greater or lesser charges, it's about someone showing me a perspective where I could see my error. In responding to two people on different ideas, I was relating my younger experience as a black man and framing how I felt at the time, and also relating why it was hard, in general, for black men to find black women to date in an area. Once quoted, I saw how it could all be conflated and look like a big misogynist mess, especially without the framing of me speaking about my past and the earlier post mentioning how many black men, including myself, came off as misogynist PUA people when looking to date because of the scarcity I felt in the dating world as compared to other people. It's (my objectifying views when younger) not an excuse, because I still could have listened to women, faster, but it is an all too common effect. That's why I said phrasing and not word usage; I didn't frame things correctly, and apologized for coming off the way I did by doing that. It's up to you if you feel I'm being genuine or if I really am talking about my past or not. Darko fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 19:51
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In other news, a not that close but still friend that I grew up and is black committed suicide yesterday. One of the complaints that he has been harping on recently is about how America really sees black people as evidenced by the recent election.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:58
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Thanks for the well wishes. I only decided to post that in here because observers can see that the effects on POC (and other marginalized groups) are not always just things that people can just "get over" and often work as long-term oppressive feelings that can combine with pre-existing issues and magnify them. There's no way to definitively blame "a ton of Internet trolls and alt right people saying black lives don't matter because they deserve it and electing a President that says stop and frisk is totally cool" for his suicide, but that kind of stuff definitely does not help - as even the strongest of us internalize things to some degree.
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Nov 15, 2016 20:00
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