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Yeah, IRV is a good thing. I wish it (and STV or something similar for representatives) saw more use. Not sure how successful pushing for either would be, but it, particularly the latter, would help with how lovely things are. STV or something in particular would help kill gerrymandering. Which is part of why we're not likely to see it, really. Well, that and an amendment being needed for it on the national level; I think the states might be able to implement it if they want though?
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Nov 15, 2016 09:46
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I don't know, there are some good points, but for the most part it comes off as making sweeping generalizations as an angsty response to other people making sweeping generalizations. And when I say people, it doesn't really seem like the article is describing the left as a whole, but more like one persons social circle of liberal elites. Kekekela fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 11:21
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If anyone is on the fence or overwhelmed with all the options in front of them in the wake of what's happened all over the world this year, then I would heartily recommend taking the first step of joining a political party and start attending meetings. I joined the Labour party a few months ago, not really knowing what to expect or what to do, and found it to be a group of really cool people that I could discuss politics with face to face. I'm now getting more and more involved with campaigning and felt really welcome, since a lot of the people currently in the party are older people from the 70s-80s who are crying out for some young blood to come in and help out. I can't speak to the situation in other countries, but if you care about what's going on in the world, get out of your gooncave and start meeting people. The rest will follow.
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Nov 15, 2016 11:32
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Dressing up real nice and knowing how to speak well is useful, but serving the people is primary. That's what got the Black Panthers popular. There was an intersection that was badly designed and people kept getting ran over, and the city wouldn't do anything about it. So they made a stop sign themselves and put it up. People were getting illegally harassed by the police, so they offered classes on people's rights and how to defend them. Kids were going hungry and couldn't focus in school, so they opened breakfast kitchens and ended up feeding 11,000 of them a day. Black people were getting turned away from doctors offices so they opened a clinic for blood tests. There were countless other examples of this, and they became so good at providing these services that the cities had to launch rival ones, out of pure fear that the BPP was going to become a defacto second government. They also policed the police, the importance of which can't be understated in modern day America. It'd be incredibly risky for a cop to shoot another unarmed guy if fifteen heavily armed ones in berets and leather jackets are marching ten feet away.
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Nov 15, 2016 11:36
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:That's actually something I want to do in my state party for choosing delegates to the convention. We spend all goddamned day voting and revoting over and over again until all the slots are filled. Are you a member of your local party branch? If not, then join and push for it! Ask for a discussion of it to be put on the agenda to start with. Getting people talking about it is the first step.
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Nov 15, 2016 11:48
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Torquemadras posted:This is a great thread idea. If anything, this disastrous election seemed to have served as a sort of wake-up call for the left... If you want to help prevent the fascists from taking over, join a party. (Linke or Grüne, maybe even SPD if you think it's salvageable.) Make peace with the fact that some people in that party are going to be assholes you'd rather not be associated with, that's an unavoidable part of parliamentary democracy. If you don't want to do that, find an organization that fights for some specific cause you want to support. Basically this: MikeCrotch posted:I can't speak to the situation in other countries, but if you care about what's going on in the world, get out of your gooncave and start meeting people. The rest will follow.
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Nov 15, 2016 14:12
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HorseLord posted:Dressing up real nice and knowing how to speak well is useful, but serving the people is primary. Pretty much this. I'm reminded of a good series of tweets on practical steps to take in the coming days: https://twitter.com/HarryGiles/status/796254688622604289 https://twitter.com/HarryGiles/status/796254860513603587 https://twitter.com/HarryGiles/status/796255194015289344 https://twitter.com/HarryGiles/status/796255505933094912 https://twitter.com/HarryGiles/status/796255828525387776 https://twitter.com/HarryGiles/status/796256180108660736 https://twitter.com/HarryGiles/status/796256714882510848 https://twitter.com/HarryGiles/status/796256881626976256 https://twitter.com/HarryGiles/status/796257368229249024 https://twitter.com/HarryGiles/status/796257617324675072
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Nov 15, 2016 14:45
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That's like the polar opposite of the spirit of the op.
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Nov 15, 2016 14:59
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MiddleOne posted:That's like the polar opposite of the spirit of the op. No it isn't.
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Nov 15, 2016 15:13
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MiddleOne posted:That's like the polar opposite of the spirit of the op. Like gently caress it is. I'm a diasbled, unemployed, gay man. If wasn't for how demonised Muslims are right now in the West I'd be the first against the wall. Everything in that post is excellent advice and I endorse it wholeheartedly.
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Nov 15, 2016 15:27
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HorseLord posted:Dressing up real nice and knowing how to speak well is useful, but serving the people is primary. I would agree and disagree here. Serving the populace is very important, and should absolutely be a priority if that's what you choose to do. One type of activism isn't more important than another. We need lobbyists and influencers as much as we need people running food pantries and drop-in shelters. As anyone whose attended a city council meeting will quickly learn, it's not for everyone. It's usually very boring, you need to repeat the same message over and over and over and over... you'll often feel like you've clawed and scraped to achieve a small bit of what you're aiming for. That said, don't go up against the cops unless you're willing to get killed. I'm 100% serious. They can shoot you, and they will walk away scot free. They can beat you until you're paralyzed, missing an eye, permanently peeing into a bag, etc., and there will be no consequences for them. There are always more cops (they will summon them from other municipalities, the county, neighboring counties, etc.), and they are armed with military gear that they don't receive nearly the training they should in it's proper usage. My aunt got strip searched and raped by three when they caught her not having a ticket on the subway, and nothing happened. She was a guest on Oprah, and still, no charges, no nothing to her rapists. They should be treated with a healthy amount of fear. Not pants making GBS threads terror, but an awareness of what will be brought down if you engineer a situation where they will be brought to bear against you and yours. I've worked myself into the position where I can talk to the police chief regularly (small rural town), and he agrees that much of our heroin problem needs treatment and care, rather than doorbusting raids and people getting shot. We brought the local churches in on this to help with the transition and recovery (we don't have any sort of clinics or homeless shelters (presently working on getting one of these set up too)). I'll say again that my experiences are based on working in rural small town America, and might not apply to your situation. Don't take anything I say as gospel. Adapt it to your circumstances. Disregard me completely if it doesn't apply, or would be wrong for you and your community. I am not always right. One idea I've been toying around with proposing, but haven't seen implemented anywhere, would be to have a ton of liberals join the police force, and take it over from the inside. This is obviously only possible for certain demographics, and sadly excludes a number of our people, but an entire cohort of liberal cops would have an effect on policing. We've ceded a very powerful paramilitary organization completely to the conservatives, when, due to it's somewhat open employment policies, it could be simply taken over. Websites of Use http://openstates.org/ -- look up your local US politicians, check out everything they've ever voted on, see upcoming legislation, track the progress of bills through the senate and house. Very useful tool if you live in the US. http://www.city-data.com -- A poo poo ton of data about all the towns and cities across the US, aggregated for browsing. Useful for statistics, comparisons, etc. You might want an ad blocker turned on before browsing. https://www.guidestar.org/Home.aspx -- One of the big non-profit sites, this allows you to check out the 990 status of almost any non-profit group, how much they spend on admin vs. their goals, etc. Very useful for investigating any group you are looking into donating to.
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Nov 15, 2016 15:38
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Liberals infiltrating cops sound like a terrible idea, liberals would never use these kinds of tactics anyway because cops as they are now serve liberals perfectly. The liberal view on police is that "both sides need to view each other with respect and learn to get along" and other rubbish. Can we get "Liberals aren't leftists" in the op please HorseLord fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 15:52
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Proper Leftism requires baller waving flags
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Nov 15, 2016 15:58
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:My theory is that if even a tiny fraction of angry leftists went through the pain of getting involved in the Democratic party and getting into a leadership position, it'd tip the balance towards a much more progressive vision of the party. Right. This is basically what happened with the GOP. The Moral Majority started showing up. The party listened and moved right. Gotta get some blood on your hands in politics and compromise principles.
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Nov 15, 2016 15:58
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You cannot turn a liberal party into a socialist party. But you can a reactionary party more reactionary.
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Nov 15, 2016 16:00
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HorseLord posted:Can we get "Liberals aren't leftists" in the op please No. This is not the thread for that and other such arguing about political philosophy. If they want to help and vote for a particular cause we agree with then we shouldn't deny it because their motives aren't good enough or whatever. This is a thread about getting things done, not ideological purity. The same goes for anyone who wants to come in here and argue against those who are actually taking a stand because they're not being "respectful" enough.
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Nov 15, 2016 16:04
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HorseLord posted:You cannot turn a liberal party into a socialist party. But you can a reactionary party more reactionary. Counterpoint: wrong
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Nov 15, 2016 16:13
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menino posted:Counterpoint: wrong Drop this. This is not the thread for it.
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Nov 15, 2016 16:15
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Captain Fargle posted:Like gently caress it is. I'm a diasbled, unemployed, gay man. If wasn't for how demonised Muslims are right now in the West I'd be the first against the wall. Everything in that post is excellent advice and I endorse it wholeheartedly. Look, I'm not going to get into the finer details about how much good versus bad organisations like Antifa bring into the political landscape. That debate has been had to death on D&D to no avail. However, what I will say is that you can't lambast the feminist in the video you yourself linked for not taking the proper steps in achieving political legitimacy for her agenda, and then turn around and endorse joining Antifa. That specific brand of political activism is mutually exclusive to what you describe in the op, they can't be combined.
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Nov 15, 2016 16:33
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MiddleOne posted:Look, I'm not going to get into the finer details about how much good versus bad organisations like Antifa bring into the political landscape. That debate has been had to death on D&D to no avail. However, what I will say is that you can't lambast the feminist in the video you yourself linked for not taking the proper steps in achieving political legitimacy for her agenda, and then turn around and endorse joining Antifa. That specific brand of political activism is mutually exclusive to what you describe in the op, they can't be combined. You're confusing me with a different poster buddy.
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Nov 15, 2016 16:37
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Captain Fargle posted:You're confusing me with a different poster buddy. I uh... What? EDIT: 
MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 16:40
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Any advice at all for groups in the UK to get involved with?
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Nov 15, 2016 16:55
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MiddleOne posted:I uh... What? You're mixing up my posting with Toph Bei Fong's. I don't share their position that you need to look "normal" in order to be effective in your chosen sphere of political activism but neither am I going to say that they are objectively wrong. If they feel dressing in a suit and having a plain haircut is the best way to advance the progressive agenda then who am I to stop them? What I care about is actually getting out there and trying to make a difference. For the same reasons I'm not going to denounce anyone who joins an organisation dedicated towards telling fascists to go gently caress themselves, especially if they feel their lives are being threatened.
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Nov 15, 2016 16:57
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[ed: beaten]
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Nov 15, 2016 17:00
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Captain Fargle posted:No. This is not the thread for that and other such arguing about political philosophy. If they want to help and vote for a particular cause we agree with then we shouldn't deny it because their motives aren't good enough or whatever. This is a thread about getting things done, not ideological purity. The thread title is literally "Effective leftism". Liberalism is an entirely different thing and always has been. If there can be critical support in order to advance one of the astonishingly few common goals then that's good, but there is no Effective Leftism in being uncritical supporters of the ideology that was literally created to give middle class new-money private property owners a leg up over the aristocracy. Our goals are ultimately opposed.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:02
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You know what is not Effective Leftism? Having a billion circuitous arguments about what is true leftism while fascists organize and burn the world around you on topic, you should support the ACLU. They're getting the biggest upswell of support since 9/11 but every little bit of help counts: https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/aclu-receiving-outpouring-support-heres-what-we-plan-doing-it HorseRenoir fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 17:05
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If you invite a liberal along to fight fascists they will call the police on you, and be on the TV news condemning the property damage. As liberals so often say, they "don't agree with what [fascists] have to say, but they'll defend their right to say it". Like nah, bricks for fascists then, now, forever HorseLord fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 17:07
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Olpainless posted:Any advice at all for groups in the UK to get involved with? Given the current political quagmire the UK finds itself stuck in this question is a lot easier asked than answered. Normally I'd recommend the Labour party but if you're hardline against Brexit then you might find yourself having too much of a fundamental difference with their current leadership to be okay with that. (Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell are not opposed to the idea of leaving the EU, just the utterly shambolic way that it's been carried out by the Tories, on the basis that it opens up the possibility of a more socialist economic policy than the European Treaties as they stand currently allow.) It depends a lot on what issues you feel are most important to you but a good bet would always be looking up your local council and seeing what you can do there.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:11
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HorseLord posted:The thread title is literally "Effective leftism". Liberalism is an entirely different thing and always has been. If there can be critical support in order to advance one of the astonishingly few common goals then that's good, but there is no Effective Leftism in being uncritical supporters of the ideology that was literally created to give middle class new-money private property owners a leg up over the aristocracy. Our goals are ultimately opposed. This is not about being uncritical supporters of Liberalism. This is about not refusing their aid when our goals are aligned on the basis of ideological purity. Like I said in the OP. Progress is Progress. Do not deny it to the world just because it does not go far enough in your mind. Captain Fargle fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 17:15
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Captain Fargle posted:This is not about being uncritical supporters of Liberalism. This about not refusing their aid when our goals are aligned on the basis of ideological purity. HorseLord posted:If there can be critical support in order to advance one of the astonishingly few common goals then that's good I maintain that liberals aren't to be trusted because their relation to the struggle is completely different than ours. They're happy to say they're on your side until you inconvenience them, and they absolutely hate it when you point this out. Their value system is different, so many of them are incapable of seeing antifascism as anything other than violating the right of another group to voice an opinion. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 17:17
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Special election is coming up for a U.S. Senate seat in Louisiana December 10th:Roll Call posted:Kennedy, the state treasurer, said he has received calls from Republican senators offering their help after he won the Nov. 8 open primary with 25 percent of the vote. Campbell finished second in the 24-candidate field with 17 percent. But more than 60 percent voted for Republican candidates compared to 36 percent who voted for Democrats.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:25
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Captain Fargle posted:Are you a member of your local party branch? If not, then join and push for it! Ask for a discussion of it to be put on the agenda to start with. Getting people talking about it is the first step. I definitely am, so now it's an issue of figuring out a practical way to do it.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:27
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HorseLord posted:I maintain that liberals aren't to be trusted because their relation to the struggle is completely different than ours. They're happy to say they're on your side until you inconvenience them, and they absolutely hate it when you point this out. Their value system is different, so many of them are incapable of seeing antifascism as anything other than violating the right of another group to voice an opinion. You've got some pretty massive generalizations about people who are basically bound together by "the state is good, and a mixed economy is fine". Social liberalism is certainly both antifascist and considerably to the left of what we're getting now in the US, UK, France, etc. There's a shitload of movement before the goals are going to be misaligned.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:30
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HorseLord posted:I maintain that liberals aren't to be trusted because their relation to the struggle is completely different than ours. They're happy to say they're on your side until you inconvenience them, and they absolutely hate it when you point this out. Their value system is different, so many of them are incapable of seeing antifascism as anything other than violating the right of another group to voice an opinion. And? If they're on our side for something that's still good. It makes it easier to achieve progress. Use it where you can, fight it where you have to. What matters is getting stuff done. That is the end of the matter as far as this thread is concerned. This means stop talking about it.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:31
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menino posted:Again I feel like starting with statehouses is a really good starting point because it reverberates all the way down. Starting now can harness ppl's enthusiasm who feel like they can't do anything. Getting smarter at the local and state level is overdue and necessary to stay in the game.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:33
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Oracle posted:Special election is coming up for a U.S. Senate seat in Louisiana December 10th: Quoting this because it deserves attention.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:33
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MiddleOne posted:Look, I'm not going to get into the finer details about how much good versus bad organisations like Antifa bring into the political landscape. That debate has been had to death on D&D to no avail. However, what I will say is that you can't lambast the feminist in the video you yourself linked for not taking the proper steps in achieving political legitimacy for her agenda, and then turn around and endorse joining Antifa. That specific brand of political activism is mutually exclusive to what you describe in the op, they can't be combined. Yeah, afraid you're mixing us up. Based on the demographics of my area, me and mine need to look like average people who deserve to be taken seriously. If being more outwardly militant, if public displays of strength, etc. are working and achieving measurable difference for you and your group, KEEP DOING THEM. Figure out what you are trying to do, and take steps towards achieving those goals. There aren't a ton of liberals where I live, let alone leftists. I probably own the only complete set of Das Kapital in the entire county. My work, by necessity, has to focus on turning conservatives more liberal, or getting them to support liberal and leftist policies, simply due to demographics. If I tried to do the screaming, the bright colored hair, etc. I'd be laughed off, not taken seriously, and ridiculed. The old people who run things here are the ones I need to convince to give me money to do things. This may not be the case in your circumstances. If doing something different was what would work here, I would be doing that instead. As I said above (now with added emphasis): Toph Bei Fong posted:I'll say again that my experiences are based on working in rural small town America, and might not apply to your situation. Don't take anything I say as gospel. Adapt it to your circumstances. Disregard me completely if it doesn't apply, or would be wrong for you and your community. I am not always right. Toph Bei Fong fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 17:33
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:You've got some pretty massive generalizations about people who are basically bound together by "the state is good, and a mixed economy is fine". Social liberalism is certainly both antifascist and considerably to the left of what we're getting now in the US, UK, France, etc. There's a shitload of movement before the goals are going to be misaligned. Social Liberalism is telling you pre-election that trump is Hitler, and telling you post-election that we need to compromise with Hitler and give him a chance. Your mixed economy remark makes me think you mean Social Democracy. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 17:35
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HorseLord posted:I maintain that liberals aren't to be trusted because their relation to the struggle is completely different than ours. They're happy to say they're on your side until you inconvenience them, and they absolutely hate it when you point this out. Their value system is different, so many of them are incapable of seeing antifascism as anything other than violating the right of another group to voice an opinion. They are not allies, sure, but they can be potential coalition members. Sure they don't have your back reliably in all instances, but they can be worked with towards some shared goals, and if kept focused on those goals you might be able to engage them in support for other goals. Progress is progress and if you can't win on the back of firm allies, it's time to see what goals you can make a winning coalition with, and maybe work to convince coalition members to become allies.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:37
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HorseLord posted:More of the same poo poo. Dude. I told you cut this the hell out. Take it to another thread. THIS IS NOT THE PLACE FOR IT.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:38
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