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Dressing up real nice and knowing how to speak well is useful, but serving the people is primary. That's what got the Black Panthers popular. There was an intersection that was badly designed and people kept getting ran over, and the city wouldn't do anything about it. So they made a stop sign themselves and put it up. People were getting illegally harassed by the police, so they offered classes on people's rights and how to defend them. Kids were going hungry and couldn't focus in school, so they opened breakfast kitchens and ended up feeding 11,000 of them a day. Black people were getting turned away from doctors offices so they opened a clinic for blood tests. There were countless other examples of this, and they became so good at providing these services that the cities had to launch rival ones, out of pure fear that the BPP was going to become a defacto second government. They also policed the police, the importance of which can't be understated in modern day America. It'd be incredibly risky for a cop to shoot another unarmed guy if fifteen heavily armed ones in berets and leather jackets are marching ten feet away.
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Nov 15, 2016 11:36
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MiddleOne posted:That's like the polar opposite of the spirit of the op. No it isn't.
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Nov 15, 2016 15:13
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Liberals infiltrating cops sound like a terrible idea, liberals would never use these kinds of tactics anyway because cops as they are now serve liberals perfectly. The liberal view on police is that "both sides need to view each other with respect and learn to get along" and other rubbish. Can we get "Liberals aren't leftists" in the op please HorseLord fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 15:52
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You cannot turn a liberal party into a socialist party. But you can a reactionary party more reactionary.
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Nov 15, 2016 16:00
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Captain Fargle posted:No. This is not the thread for that and other such arguing about political philosophy. If they want to help and vote for a particular cause we agree with then we shouldn't deny it because their motives aren't good enough or whatever. This is a thread about getting things done, not ideological purity. The thread title is literally "Effective leftism". Liberalism is an entirely different thing and always has been. If there can be critical support in order to advance one of the astonishingly few common goals then that's good, but there is no Effective Leftism in being uncritical supporters of the ideology that was literally created to give middle class new-money private property owners a leg up over the aristocracy. Our goals are ultimately opposed.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:02
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If you invite a liberal along to fight fascists they will call the police on you, and be on the TV news condemning the property damage. As liberals so often say, they "don't agree with what [fascists] have to say, but they'll defend their right to say it". Like nah, bricks for fascists then, now, forever HorseLord fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 17:07
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Captain Fargle posted:This is not about being uncritical supporters of Liberalism. This about not refusing their aid when our goals are aligned on the basis of ideological purity. HorseLord posted:If there can be critical support in order to advance one of the astonishingly few common goals then that's good I maintain that liberals aren't to be trusted because their relation to the struggle is completely different than ours. They're happy to say they're on your side until you inconvenience them, and they absolutely hate it when you point this out. Their value system is different, so many of them are incapable of seeing antifascism as anything other than violating the right of another group to voice an opinion. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 17:17
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:You've got some pretty massive generalizations about people who are basically bound together by "the state is good, and a mixed economy is fine". Social liberalism is certainly both antifascist and considerably to the left of what we're getting now in the US, UK, France, etc. There's a shitload of movement before the goals are going to be misaligned. Social Liberalism is telling you pre-election that trump is Hitler, and telling you post-election that we need to compromise with Hitler and give him a chance. Your mixed economy remark makes me think you mean Social Democracy. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 17:35
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xthetenth posted:They are not allies, sure, but they can be potential coalition members. Sure they don't have your back reliably in all instances, but they can be worked with towards some shared goals, and if kept focused on those goals you might be able to engage them in support for other goals. Progress is progress and if you can't win on the back of firm allies, it's time to see what goals you can make a winning coalition with, and maybe work to convince coalition members to become allies. I agree with that, I'm just coming at it from a pessimistic angle. I've seen too many people get burned. Fargle, if you don't like us discussing practical matters of leftist organization, maybe you shouldn't have created the thread?
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Nov 15, 2016 17:40
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Fargle a key part of organizing effectively is how to approach liberals, to be aware of the risks of doing so and take precautions, to handle them properly. I'm a little suspicious that this is hurting your feelings.
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Nov 15, 2016 17:46
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xthetenth posted:Then talk about warning signs and what they mean for how to approach them, what to approach them for, how to keep their buy-in, and things they're likely to leave you hanging on. This is a thread for functional advice on how to do things. Sure, and we'd be already discussing that, but it got derailed into if we should discuss it.
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Nov 15, 2016 18:07
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I consider myself a liberal. We will almost certainly have fundamental disagreements over political theory, but almost none about short- to medium-term political action as long as you're not planning on violent revolution. Political practice comes from political theory always. I'm not interested in your insistence that you're a "good one", that's something all liberals say, even the ones that gently caress people over, and being offended when reminded that is a good sign of a bad one. I'm interested in your action - if you're trustworthy you won't need to say so because you'll prove it in your actions. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 18:14
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Toph Bei Fong posted:One of the key groups that are usually sympathetic towards anything to do with poverty, drug abuse, oppression, etc. are Churches. Spend enough time in any community, and you'll quickly learn which churches are the most important, which ones people attend, which priests/ministers/pastors/deacons/whatever are the ones folks care about. These people tend to be pillars of the community, and command a vast, captive audience every week. Some of them are right out; if you're in an area with a Bapti$t Megachurch, for example, don't even bother. But most of the Anglican, Presbyterian, and Methodist churches are very sympathetic towards traditionally liberal causes if they're given the right coat of paint. This will involve some bible digging, some quote mining, and a bit of prep for the arguments that can be mustered against your points, but often if you come "looking for help" and let them work alongside, you'll quickly have a vast pool of people do draw on for food, shelter, money, labor, etc. If you're careful about terminology and allow them to take credit, well, who gives a poo poo if the goal is being achieved? Completely correct - this doesn't just mean christian churches but any mainstream religion. Sikhs do incredible work feeding the poor.
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Nov 15, 2016 18:30
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Stockholm Syndrome posted:What's up with the left now that Donald Trump got elected? Liberal "progressive" people protesting in the streets, causing violence and assaulting Trump supporters. Is that liberal or progressive? They're doing exactly the same things they accuse Trump supporters of doing. But Trump supporters haven't done any of those things after Trump got elected. This guy here is who the OP is mad I warned y'all about. Someone else post that MLK bit about white moderates because I can't be bothered. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 18:56
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Literally the guy who''ll betray you, right on time
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Nov 15, 2016 19:02
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Stockholm Syndrome posted:I don't feel I've betrayed anything, I still believe in leftist values. But those aren't being shown at all here, all I see is hate and the attitude that "we're right and if you voted for Trump you deserve to have your rear end kicked". Didn't know the left was for violence. You are the liberal the OP is mad I pointed out exists, I guess you've been beneficial for once by proving my point.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:08
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Captain Fargle posted:This is not the thread for you or for this discussion. Take it to USPOL if you want to insist on it. I warned you but you wouldn't listen.
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Nov 15, 2016 19:13
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Captain Fargle posted:I do not need you to inform me that racist, homophobic fuckwads exist. Racism and homophobia isn't even what he's performed ITT, only the liberalism I warned you about, the liberalism of pearl-clutching "I agree with you but I'm SHOCKED that you would do this" and calling 911. I'm well aware that he's doing it as an act and that he's a straight up reactionary, it's a common tactic. It says something about that strain of liberalism that reactionaries can perform it to further their goals, and be near impossible to tell apart from those who act this way out of sincerity. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 19:18
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Captain Fargle posted:We are all aware. You are not some kind of unique genius and we don't need your smug warnings about how idiots like him exist. See now you're being a sectarian. I've never given a "smug warning", I tried to start a discussion on how we deal with the white moderate stealth reactionary and their respectability politics, which upset you, and now it's too late because you've got a real live one. I'm smug now because it's blew up in your face. Captain Fargle posted:And yes, apologizing away the racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, anti-semitic nature of Trump, his campaign and his allies does count as racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and anti-semitism. He hadn't actually started doing that until after I started writing my response to you. Pardon me for not reading posts from the future HorseLord fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Nov 15, 2016 |
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Nov 15, 2016 19:27
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Step 1 for dealing with someone doing the Respectable Outraged Liberal act: don't reply to his posts because he isn't sincere
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Nov 15, 2016 19:33
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TomViolence posted:Yeah, in a two-party system you're definitely better off working within one of the big two rather than trying to shore up a third party, particularly with the electoral college system you have in the US. It's far from perfect, but it's better to have something "good enough" to work with rather than something niche but pure or whatever. In the UK a third party nearly destroyed the union and then took all the seats in an entire country.
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Nov 15, 2016 20:51
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HorseRenoir posted:Corbyn is like Jimmy Carter in that he's a good person but an extremely lovely politician. Obviously leadership isn't easy when most of your party organization hates you, but he's been pretty passive and spineless in the face of Brexit. He is definitely not the Sanders-esque firebrand that people were expecting him to be. I don't think surviving a leadership coup is all that spineless.
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Nov 15, 2016 22:09
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The democrat position isn't precarious enough; that's why they get away with everything they do.
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Nov 15, 2016 22:21
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NikkolasKing posted:So what is Antifa and why did someone recommend against joining them? Antifa is Anti-Fascist, whoever told you not to join probably thinks they impede on fascists' right to free speech or some liberal poo poo like that. Antifa are good and keep us all safe.
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Nov 15, 2016 23:25
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yellowyams posted:Rumors of Russian influence ops in Europe. https://twitter.com/JeffersonObama/status/798598839468847104 Don't know if it's true but I can readily believe it and it sounds very very dangerous for anyone opposed to the rise of fascism. I don't really know how to combat this, but it needs a lot more attention than it's getting, maybe contact reporters and call for an investigation from the government? I don't know much about European govt but I imagine most of the leaders probably don't want to be overthrown by fascists so if someone informed them they need to nip this in the bud urgently then I would hope they'd listen. Russia already played a huge role in getting Trump elected, it would be a tragedy for that to happen to the rest of the world. "10 downing street, this is the government man's office, how can I help?" "You guys are in trouble, according to twitter user at jefferson obama, russia is running something called an "influence op" to overthrow you, you better do a double influence op real quick to counter the effects" *sound of monacle dropping in tea* "my goodness! right away sir. thank you sir you've saved england, have a knighthood"
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Nov 15, 2016 23:35
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You did not "America to Trump" because of some evil KGB plot. Trump won because he's extremely popular with the people he markets himself to and Hillary Clinton is the leftovers from the '08 primaries.
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Nov 15, 2016 23:40
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yellowyams posted:There were many small factors leading to Trump victory, pretending it was just one thing is mistaken. Many Trump supporters I saw online leading up to the election were vocally pro-Putin and were engaging in conversation with white millenials susceptible to their ideology. I didn't think it was a big deal back then because I figured there wasn't enough of them to actually influence enough people but here we are and Trump only won by a slim margin compared to Hillary's overall vote count. Even if it's blown out of proportion I think the world is at huge risk right now and we can't afford to overlook even the smallest things that might tip the scale. If there were many small factors then running screaming through the thread that the KGB is coming makes you look ridiculous. Can you even explain how this nefarious KGB plot supposedly worked? Like, step by step, what did they do? What makes this new, scary, but totally vague and unexplained interference different from the normal kind every country has done to every other country since elections were invented?
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Nov 16, 2016 00:11
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b0ner of doom posted:Violence is never ok, and i think people that want to do violence or otherwise practice those types of owns on their political opponents should try being happier in life and finding fun and constructive things to do instead So the next time I'm attacked for being a gay communist I should be cool with it and let myself be murdered? Or I could break with liberalism, and be completely happy in the knowledge that the suppression of certain political beliefs (for example, that blacks and homos should die) is necessary before they become political actions (blacks and homos being killed). You know, I think I'll take the latter. Some dudes conspiring to genocide us is not the same as them having a difference of opinion with us.
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Nov 16, 2016 00:37
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Asehujiko posted:What can a Dutch goon do to help stop Wilders in 2017? Labour is currently in a coalition with the VVD and is giving no signs of ever planning to listening to their voters again and our other left leaning parties all had knee mounted gatling guns surgically installed to be able to shoot themselves in the foot faster(CONSERVATIVE DEATH PANELS!!! BAN EUTHANASIA!!!) As Wilders himself says, we must learn the lesson of Pim Fortuyn  (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 16, 2016 11:28
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You don't need to bother with the dutch labour party at all when the SP exists, not that I've heard anything of Labour working with Wilders/PVV
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Nov 16, 2016 13:09
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The beauty of proportional representation is that a vote for the people you like is always a vote against that one shithead who sucks.
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Nov 16, 2016 16:27
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menino posted:That's also a stock photo of a white guy tasting wine. Everything about that account is fake bullshit. Never mind that, it's vitally important that we save the world by informing the prime minister, the queen, whoever's in charge of nato these days, he-man, GI Joe and Thunderbirds that some nobody made a tweet.
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Nov 16, 2016 19:45
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yellowyams posted:The same pro-Putin people who campaigned online for Trump are doing the same thing again for France https://www.reddit.com/r/Le_Pen/ I can't stress enough how dangerous it is to underestimate them even if their behavior is ridiculous, these people organize drives and volunteer and are very effective at radicalizing young people into fascists and mobilizing them, there is way too much at stake to ignore this threat regardless of if you think it's a joke or not. They also know to hide their support for fascist when asked to confuse the polls and boost their opponent's confidence, it's not very reassuring that most European people I've spoken to in recent years are from the far-right, the huge amount of immigrants and Muslims has caused xenophobia to flare and the far right is surging on it right now. gently caress off, dude. We're not "underestimating" anything, you're just mistaking the completely ordinary way election campaigns happen, i.e people giving money to candidates they like, for a conspiracy to control the outcome of western elections. I've already asked you exactly how it is you think Russia's actions are unique, and you have no idea. You look like a drat fool talking about how we need to "warn the government" like you've discovered something on twitter that they haven't loving noticed.
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Nov 17, 2016 10:50
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Worth pausing for a moment and asking yourself, if a bald guy preceding over the shattered ruins of Russia can supposedly control the US election, why didn't that happen when Russia was like, 10000 times more capable and important? It's just conspiracy theory poo poo pedaled to people too weakminded to accept Hillary lost because she's very bad at running for president, and so nobody voted for her.
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Nov 17, 2016 17:14
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