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The shittiest thing about kdm is thst there is a good game to be had with the basic concepts. Replace the lovely dice mechanics with some sort of player action deck, perhaps something along the lines of mage knight (if less complicated). Add a few more options and things to do in the settlement phase, remove the hunting phase or simply make it less lovely with better events. Remove a lot of the 'rocks fall and this character dies gently caress you' style events. Maybe lower the lethality a notch depending on how dark soulsy you want it to be. Make the ending not thematically suck balls. The concept of the game is quite good, build a settlement, fight progressively more powerful monsters. This is good, it just could use better mechanics and less fetish.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:03
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I think there's a game there but the problem is with board games that wish they were computer games with way too many complicated systems that would be ok if they were all automated but when you have to do the manual book keeping with tokens and charts they slow down and become cumbersome grinds. Android is one where there's just so much poo poo going on that bogs the game down where it would probably be fine if it was an Xbox live game you played online.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:09
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Caros posted:Maybe lower the lethality a notch depending on how dark soulsy you want it to be. Dark Souls, well known for killing characters based random chance and permadeath. Also tits. (people who compare this to dark souls piss me off. darkest dungeon is a better comparison, as its also a grimdark overcomplicated pachislots machine)
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Dec 19, 2016 21:08
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Yeah if you wanted an actual Dark Soulsian game it should be entirely deterministic, which is something even the actual Dark Souls board game apparently doesn't get right. Dark Souls is the opposite of "whoops I rolled bad, guess I die now" and bosses whose patterns come out of a shuffled deck of cards.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:21
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discount cathouse posted:Dark Souls, well known for killing characters based random chance and permadeath. Also tits. Yeah, they want to be more Rogue-like. But the early game in Nethack is all about making your character invulnerable to as many forms of insta-death as possible. For real time roguelikes, the randomly generated levels are designed to be beatable with perfect skill and reaction times, even if the random item drops totally screw you over. I don't think you can reach that level of luck mitigation in Kingdom Death. They'd be much better off with totally deterministic enemies and random enemy group composition.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:24
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Also "Why won't all these haters look past the tentacle rape monsters, suffering pregnant women, and ammo slaves surrounding it to find the (not very) good game underneath, god?" is the saddest fuckin thing. I'm sorry the guy who made the game you like decided to drape it in his fetishes for prehensile dicks and hands everywhere, maybe you should ask them why they decided that was necessary. I mean based on everything I've heard and seen I don't think Kingdom Death would actually be worth playing even if you stripped all that stuff away, but if you have to go to bat for something by saying "first of all, it's not actually about tentacle rape" then someone somewhere has made a poor life decision.
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Dec 19, 2016 21:26
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Caros posted:The shittiest thing about kdm is thst there is a good game to be had with the basic concepts. With regards to the hunt phase and some of the insta-kill results, KD 1.5 will have ways of mitigating those if you have innovated the right things. So the hunt phase is getting a degree of an overhaul. Not too sure what else you want in the settlement phase. Having played the game solo twice now, and also playing the campaign featured in the Beasts of War videos, there is a lot in the settlement phase, such as innovations, settlement events, story events, and crafting equipment ready for the next fight. Plus KD was originally printed with alternate play methods. So there is nothing against people adjusting the gameplay to fit the players. Not sure what you hate about the dice mechanics for fights. Fights for me come down to a sort of puzzle game, where the sequence of activations, and manipulating the monster AI and HL decks, and dealing with the traits and moods in play, all makes it interesting and more than just about the rolls to hit and wound.
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Dec 19, 2016 23:47
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There are some decent ideas hidden under all the crap, just nowhere near anything good enough to be worth the asking price.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:00
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Scyther posted:There are some decent ideas hidden under all the crap, just nowhere near anything good enough to be worth the asking price. Can you elaborate? If we ignore the style of the minis, the design is up there with the rest of them, and the core game is plenty of hobby if you enjoy putting minis together and painting. So on price the minis in my mind are worth it. Which leaves the printed content and gameplay itself.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:03
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discount cathouse posted:Dark Souls, well known for killing characters based random chance and permadeath. Also tits.  I do take some issue with you making GBS threads on darkest dungeon though. That game is the poo poo when it comes to "shoveling broken adventurers into a meat grinder and throwing away the ones too shattered to fight" simulators. It's also good because you don't have to worry about your characters much. KD could use more of that, making your lovely fighters much more expendable. Why even have a character sheet, just pull a card out of the deck for your next dude going to an early, screaming grave.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:06
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Glagha posted:
I guess because as the game progresses the innovations allow families and bloodlines to emerge, so while early game the new born survivors seem rather bland and disposable, as the game progresses the choice of who are parents, and what the children inherit, becomes itself interesting and risky (given child birth has potential for danger for both parents and the child). The result then is that you care who you put forward for parents given the rewards can be great. And that means there is a resulting narrative as you see these families and bloodlines grow.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:33
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dr_ether posted:Not sure what you hate about the dice mechanics for fights. Fights for me come down to a sort of puzzle game, where the sequence of activations, and manipulating the monster AI and HL decks, and dealing with the traits and moods in play, all makes it interesting and more than just about the rolls to hit and wound.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:40
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Xelkelvos posted:Potential sunk cost fallacy aside, the first few fights literally come down to rng as to whether or not the nearly naked souls sent to certain doom make it back. Only when you've gotten some experience and grinded out the right ingredients can you get the resources for equipment that can allow for more than two hits to a single location. Of course, at the end of the day, it's always about rolling to hit and rolling to not for and making sure to not draw the trap. There are ways to mitigate it somewhat, but just like level 1 dnd in certain editions you have to suffer through the rng heavy dirt farmer stage before you can actually do anything relatively interesting. I disagree. After the first prologue fight (which you can skip), you will typically be able to fashion a rawhide head band and immediately be able to manipulate the AI deck. So that, combined with terrain placement, and survivor positioning makes the fights more than just rng. YMMV of course.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:54
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dr_ether posted:I disagree. Yeah, that is abundantly clear.
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Dec 20, 2016 01:06
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Det_no posted:That's my point. The things people worry are in KDM are not actually in KDM. People have already mentioned it in here: The game is not that complicated to play, there is no rape, there is no fetish poo poo. Its worst crime is boobs and lovely dice rolls that can occasionally kill you. SLENDER MAN EXPANSION holy poo poo. I can't find the picture but if you scanned the picture I bet you dollars to donuts that people wouldn't confuse that for anything BUT tentacle rape.
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Dec 20, 2016 01:38
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LordAba posted:SLENDER MAN EXPANSION holy poo poo. I can't find the picture but if you scanned the picture I bet you dollars to donuts that people wouldn't confuse that for anything BUT tentacle rape. This one.
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Dec 20, 2016 01:42
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So question, if we're allowed to have essentially a thread about mocking Kingdom Death, why can't we do the same to the Age of Sigmar thread? Why is there a need to play nice with Age of Sigmar fans?
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Dec 20, 2016 01:46
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Terrible Opinions posted:So question, if we're allowed to have essentially a thread about mocking Kingdom Death, why can't we do the same to the Age of Sigmar thread? Why is there a need to play nice with Age of Sigmar fans? There are more of them, and while also a terrible game, it doesn't look like something you'd find in the home of a serial killer.
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Dec 20, 2016 01:48
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Terrible Opinions posted:So question, if we're allowed to have essentially a thread about mocking Kingdom Death, why can't we do the same to the Age of Sigmar thread? Why is there a need to play nice with Age of Sigmar fans? I mean we've had a thread all about making fun of people who give GW money for something like over a year now, so.
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Dec 20, 2016 01:52
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Cinnamon Bear posted:There are more of them, and while also a terrible game, it doesn't look like something you'd find in the home of a serial killer. Kai Tave posted:I mean we've had a thread all about making fun of people who give GW money for something like over a year now, so.
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Dec 20, 2016 02:06
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It's not all hate. I like the non rape-y models.
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Dec 20, 2016 02:07
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Glagha posted:Oh hey and look at this thing that I 100% saw come out of the game. Yes it still counts of its in an expansion. Hehe. Just wait till you see the Lion God...
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Dec 20, 2016 03:19
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That Ram God tho... Warning: This breaks the poo poo out of the tables. Edit: And another angle 
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Dec 20, 2016 03:57
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I had a break from painting after doing all the videos for Beasts of War, but the plan this holiday is to finish some models in time for when I go back to record the next batch. This is almost done and should be fun on the board once we get the twilight sword.
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Dec 20, 2016 04:03
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Awesome. Loving beasts of war by the way. Good way to showcase the game to newcomers like me.
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Dec 20, 2016 05:01
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Terrible Opinions posted:Yeah but we're not supposed to take the making fun of them bit into their private designated thread. I have no idea where you're getting this from since this isn't RPGnet where someone can put a little [+] by their thread title to make it POSITIVE COMMENTS ONLY, so far as I'm aware the reason that the AoS thread isn't just a spinoff of the GW Death thread is because everybody already knows what a turd AoS is and anyone who thinks it's actually a good game isn't going to have their opinion swayed by 40 pages of shitposts about Bloodrattler Deathfuckers, so why bother.
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Dec 20, 2016 05:15
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:Awesome. Loving beasts of war by the way. Good way to showcase the game to newcomers like me. Thanks. I'm looking forward to recording the next batch in the new year. My own home campaign came to a conclusion last night with the final survivors killing the Dragon King in the People of the Stars campaign. My new campaign is going to be back to the core campaign, but with a focus on the Dung Beetle Knight, Flower Knight, Slenderman and Dragon King (huntable rather than nemesis form).
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Dec 20, 2016 05:18
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Veyrall posted:That Ram God tho... Some of the models are ruined, RUINED by just random poo poo hanging there. This is one of them as the arms hanging by the belly do absolutely nothing for me but act as a distraction. Also, for the people who say the pinups don't add anything to the game, you know the only way to get certain cards and items is to buy the pinups.
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Dec 20, 2016 13:18
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LordAba posted:Some of the models are ruined, RUINED by just random poo poo hanging there. This is one of them as the arms hanging by the belly do absolutely nothing for me but act as a distraction. Nice way to jack up prices for game components, i'll admit.
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Dec 20, 2016 13:47
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Look if you want your TIE Advanced to be good you're going to have to pick up the Imperial Raider covered with tits and severed dicks.
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Dec 20, 2016 14:00
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Terrible Opinions posted:Yeah but we're not supposed to take the making fun of them bit into their private designated thread. Wasn't that the point of this thread, to get the Kingdom Death fans out of the trad games industry thread/kickstarter thread? I let this thread ride because the Kickstarter thread was arguing about Kingdom Death for pages and I thought this one would take the heat off. The weird pinup stuff and discussions thereof are part of that whole package. (That said this isn't some kind of lawless hellscape, if folks started telling people to kill themselves or something they'd still get probated.) Ettin fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 15:10
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LordAba posted:Some of the models are ruined, RUINED by just random poo poo hanging there. This is one of them as the arms hanging by the belly do absolutely nothing for me but act as a distraction. A lot of the busier models look better once they're painted and your brain isn't struggling to figure out those bits and can just tell at a glance they're human arms/hands.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:00
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dr_ether posted:Can you elaborate? If we ignore the style of the minis, the design is up there with the rest of them, and the core game is plenty of hobby if you enjoy putting minis together and painting. Assuming I'm not misunderstanding it as described in this thread and others by various people (feel free to explain it to me differently if you think I'm wrong) the trap mechanic seems like arbitrary dogshit. The way you deal damage to monsters meaning you might remove weak cards or strong cards, randomly making the remainder of the fight easier or harder seems like arbitrary dogshit. The events where you have to roll to see if something good happens of if possibly some of your people randomly die seems like (all together now) arbitrary dogshit. In terms of actual mechanical game design it's only "up there" with arbitrary dogshit games like Arkham Horror and the brand of raw sewage put out by Flying Frog Productions (Fortune & Glory, Last Night On Earth, etc). The only major difference in terms of gameplay is in Kingdom Death the arbitrary dogshit repeats itself ad nauseam to form a long dogshit arbitrary campaign.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:06
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On the topic of the pinups, the creator has defended it once (as far as I know), speaking with Paul Carboni of Play Unplugged:quote:PC: You’ve taken some flak for using non-canon, “pinup” models of scantily-clad women to generate revenue as well as player and artist interest in supporting your game. How do you respond to criticisms of sexism in Kingdom Death? I don't know anything about Play Unplugged, but I find Adam's answer here pretty interesting, even though I don't really think it addresses the actual ethics of pinups. Scyther posted:Assuming I'm not misunderstanding it as described in this thread and others by various people (feel free to explain it to me differently if you think I'm wrong) the trap mechanic seems like arbitrary dogshit. I don't own Kingdom Death and haven't played it, but I do know there are multiple ways to manipulate monster decks to mitigate traps. New players tend to invest in a bunch of weapons and armor (which cannot - as far as I know - affect monster decks) and nothing else, which might be why you hear a lot about how bullshit trap cards are. HazCat fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 16:12
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Scyther posted:Assuming I'm not misunderstanding it as described in this thread and others by various people (feel free to explain it to me differently if you think I'm wrong) the trap mechanic seems like arbitrary dogshit. The way you deal damage to monsters meaning you might remove weak cards or strong cards, randomly making the remainder of the fight easier or harder seems like arbitrary dogshit. The events where you have to roll to see if something good happens of if possibly some of your people randomly die seems like (all together now) arbitrary dogshit. OK, lets go full spoilers on how the HL deck works. Each monster has a deck of hit locations. Depending on the monster, some of these cards will have critical hit rules (which means you ignore all reactions on the wounds and also get some benefit, like knocking out some abilities on AI cards, or gaining some resource or attribute). Some HL cards are impervious, but again have some rule to make hits there useful. One card is the trap, representing the beast luring you into some devastating counter attack. HL cards also have reactions on them. Some trigger if you wound the monster, some if you fail to wound, some happen either way unless you are able to critical hit the location. When you attack, the number of hits is the number of HL cards you draw from the top of the deck. You may roll to wound these locations in any order that you wish. This means you can look at the reactions and manipulate them to your favour. Some the HL cards may read "First Strike" meaning those cards have to be resolved first. Of course some weapons if you gain abilities in them, or score 10s to hit, allow benefits, like scoring wounds without needing to draw HL cards, or letting you roll to wound and then picking the location after the roll result. Some let you score two wounds per wound dealt. When a wound is dealt the top AI card of the AI deck is removed. After all of this, the HL cards are put in the discard pile, and so you continue until the deck is exhausted and a reshuffle is required. When a trap card is drawn all hits are cancelled (unless again, yo could have a spear specialism and go into in the hope to trigger the trap and then cancel it), and the HL deck, and discard pile is totally reshuffled, once the brutal Trap attack is resolved. Some other monsters have traits that manipulate the HL deck, and some HL cards, once wounded, are removed from the deck. There is even an item that allows you to scout the top of the HL deck and organise it to your benefit. All of this means there is a level of card counting, the benefit of experience as you know what cards have come and gone, and also deck manipulation to the point that at times using slow weapons (weapons on able to make one hit at a time, compare to faster weapons), so that you can go through the HL with less fear of the Trap coming up. The AI deck for each monster is constructed, typically randomly, by drawing from subsets of cards they have for that attack, that cover Basic, Advanced, and Legendary attacks. This will mean you have initially no idea what attacks the monster has - you have some degree of knowing, but not what exactly it has, nor the order. When the monster attacks the AI card is drawn, and you follow the rules of how it selects a target and acts. Again, there are ways in the game to scout the entire deck before a fight starts, and to scout the deck mid game and organise the cards to your benefit. This means that coupled with knowing the general gist of how the particular monster acts, it means you can then predict the movement of it, and turn that to your advantage. As the monster is wounded, typically, the top AI card is removed from the deck. This means that as the monster is wounded, it will become more predictable. Of course this means, depending on the cards that remain, it could become weaker, or become very dangerous. All in all players have plenty of ways to interface with this system, and to make the fight more than just dealing hits. The point is to introduce some unpredictability into each fight, make fights different due to deck construction, and to represent in a manner that monsters as they get wounded either become weaker, or more dangerous. It also makes fights more than just about dealing wounds, but about learning more about the monsters, and manipulating them, hiding at the right moments, or making efforts at the right moments to remove the most dangerous AI cards.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:50
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Sloober posted:Nice way to jack up prices for game components, i'll admit. In fact the cards that come with the pinups are simply promotional material. They are cards that don't have rules for how that are made in game. They are literally just for there for fun. How they are included is up to the buyer.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:57
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dr_ether posted:a whole lot about kdm Can you explain your involvement with the game? You've painted a lot of the minis, know all the ins and outs of the game, and are running it for BoW. I'm curious if you're involved with the company somehow or just one of the biggest supporters.
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Dec 20, 2016 21:50
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Cat Face Joe posted:Can you explain your involvement with the game? You've painted a lot of the minis, know all the ins and outs of the game, and are running it for BoW. I'm curious if you're involved with the company somehow or just one of the biggest supporters. Not involved at all with the company. I piggybacked the my friends original pledge to get the core game and Dragon King expansion. My friend being a massive fan of the Monster Hunter series and Dark Souls, and he works in the computer games industry. In the last year I have played enough, and painted enough, and of course through podcasting, offered to Beasts of War to record a series. I simply asked for the blessing of Poots et al. in proceeding with that. The advantage being that for these videos everything on screen are my own painted minis, as I am trying to represent the game as something for painters and gamers. That is all there is to it.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:13
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dr_ether posted:A bunch of stuff about hit locations and trap cards. Unlike a lot of people in the thread, I have played a bunch of Kingdom Death. In my experience trap cards are arbitrary bullshit. Especially the first time you encounter tham and get a party wipe without warning. A lot of settlement and hunt events are also arbitrary bullshit. Especially since there's no real way to affect the outcome other than pure random chance, unlike hit locations. A big problem I've found is that the game seems to want you to start over a few times in order to learn how it works (like the Butcher fight, which is bullshit if you don't know how to prepare) like a roguelike, but it isn't fast like a roguelike. And the early game is tedious. And the game is simply not enjoyable enough for me to want to start over again. Also, when you die in a roguelike, or low level D&D, the game starts over at an appropriate level. In KD a party wipe means you take some new survivors and the lantern years keep going, and the settlement event difficulty keeps ratcheting up - so you can see how hosed you are from a distance and either have to play through to inevitable loss or start again. Basically, I feel like a bunch of the mechanics make the fun elements super tedious and different aspects of the game seem to conflict with the basic premise.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:13
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But unlike a D&D game or some other rogue like, you are building up an entire settlement of characters. So while yes, a TPK can and will happen, it should not be the end of the world because the game is set up to encourage you to develop as many survivors as possible. This is of course altered in differed campaigns. A Dragon King campaign is very much about fostering a few excellent survivors, and passing on their abilities through lineages. With the events, a good number, the ones that can start just killing the settlement off, do have ways to mitigate the results. But I do agree with some of the hunt events. But then KDM 1.5 is changing the hunt events so that gear and innovations can adjust those. As for the rest, I still feel that is matter of taste. The early game is not as exciting as the late in some respects, but it is also where you make some choices that define how the campaign goes forward. Having started a good number of campaigns, both solo and multiplayer, and about to start a new campaign, I know I still have not explored all the options and combos that the early game helps define.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:23
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