|
it's not really "more cynical than thou" to point out that it's trendy to complain about fake news when fake news outlets have been a thing for a long time - drudge has been around since the 90's, drudge spawned breitbart in the late aughts, there have been threads making fun of clickbait for years, and that's just on the internet. tabloids have been around forever, people have made fun of cable news for more than a decade, etc. the onion is nearly thirty years old. it's kind of ironic that fake news is a big problem now that the audiences of real news outlets are fishing around for a reason they lost the election
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 18:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 23:40 |
|
|
boner confessor posted:it's kind of ironic that fake news is a big problem now that the audiences of real news outlets are fishing around for a reason they lost the election
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 18:30
|
|
|
Tim Raines IRL posted:I think the word is "obvious", not "ironic". no, i mean, big respectable journalists all writing about how fake news is a problem now because fake news is a topic their audience really wants to read about and everyone's expected to have a hot take on it lest the market leave you behind...
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 18:32
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:it's not really "more cynical than thou" to point out that it's trendy to complain about fake news when fake news outlets have been a thing for a long time - drudge has been around since the 90's, drudge spawned breitbart in the late aughts, there have been threads making fun of clickbait for years, and that's just on the internet. tabloids have been around forever, people have made fun of cable news for more than a decade, etc. the onion is nearly thirty years old. it's kind of ironic that fake news is a big problem now that the audiences of real news outlets are fishing around for a reason they lost the election What precisely is the issue with it now being trendy to scream to the public about fake news, particularly in the shadow of such a disastrous event and with such a wealth of great examples of notorious misinformation available?
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 18:38
|
|
|
Potato Salad posted:What precisely is the issue with it now being trendy to scream to the public about fake news, particularly in the shadow of such a disastrous event and with such a wealth of great examples of notorious misinformation available? the big reason fake news exists is because that's what the audience wants to hear. and the reason fake news is a problem right now instead of at any point in the last twenty years or so is because, turns out, that's what people who read respectable journalism want to read about right now. of course there very well could have been journalists talking about fake news in 2014, it just had no appeal to the audience of the time. perhaps there's a larger structural problem in for-profit journalism
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 18:40
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:it's not really "more cynical than thou" to point out that it's trendy to complain about fake news when fake news outlets have been a thing for a long time - drudge has been around since the 90's, drudge spawned breitbart in the late aughts, there have been threads making fun of clickbait for years, and that's just on the internet. tabloids have been around forever, people have made fun of cable news for more than a decade, etc. the onion is nearly thirty years old. it's kind of ironic that fake news is a big problem now that the audiences of real news outlets are fishing around for a reason they lost the election It's more "cynical than thou" because it's conflating the establishment press's mistakes and bias with the right-wing nonsense factory's deliberate lies. I'm not saying they are lies because I don't agree with them politically - they are actually reporting on things that they made up entirely, like fiction. The Onion fake news? Blimey, that's a bit of a stretch. It clearly and deliberately labels itself satire. But of course, both sides are exactly the same, right? You win the cynicism contest, have first prize.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 19:47
|
|
|
Tim Raines IRL posted:you're assuming a lot, but thanks for the tip
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 19:53
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:It's more "cynical than thou" because it's conflating the establishment press's mistakes and bias with the right-wing nonsense factory's deliberate lies. you're missing my point here - the establishment isn't left, the liars aren't right. there's establishment and fringe outlets on both sides the point is, it's pretty silly for the establishment to decry how the fake news sites cater to their audience's demands when the establishment itself is responding to its audience's demand for reassurances that fake news is bad when making fun of fox news etc. has been a staple of this forum since at least 2005 as just the most local example of people making fun of fake news. it's the same principle as the drug war being a problem once suburban white kids start getting addicted to heroin instead of poor downtown black kids. no, it's always been a problem. the question is why is the conversation happening now when it should have happened sooner. people didn't go on about the fake news ecosystem when john kerry got swiftboated, they talked about that specific example
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 19:56
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Sorry if I came off as hostile but that just struck me as a really weird way to treat a for-profit business owned by a billionaire tech mogul. I donate to some number of NPOs and have worked for a couple in the past so am familiar with that world. I would also describe myself as basically pro-for-profit buisness, if not completely pro-billionaire tech mogul. Certainly, multi-millionaire tech moguls have paid for my lifestyle for much of the past decade, so it's hard for me to look down my nose too hard at Bezos without seeing my own flabby belly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 19:59
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Sorry if I came off as hostile but that just struck me as a really weird way to treat a for-profit business owned by a billionaire tech mogul. If you want quality consumer products, you need to actually buy them. If you praise the health-food cafe down the road but never go there (McDonalds is cheap and tasty) don't whine when it closes down.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 20:07
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:the point is, it's pretty silly for the establishment to decry how the fake news sites cater to their audience's demands when the establishment itself is responding to its audience's demand for reassurances that fake news is bad when making fun of fox news etc. has been a staple of this forum since at least 2005 as just the most local example of people making fun of fake news. it's the same principle as the drug war being a problem once suburban white kids start getting addicted to heroin instead of poor downtown black kids. no, it's always been a problem. the question is why is the conversation happening now when it should have happened sooner. people didn't go on about the fake news ecosystem when john kerry got swiftboated, they talked about that specific example Fox News isn't fake news - just heavily biased. Not the same thing! The swiftboat thing was definitely early fake news. People didn't talk about the fake news ecosystem back then because it wasn't a thing yet. It needed every right-wing uncle to be on Facebook and Twitter to have enough of an audience. One fake article isn't a trend, but this year it has become a trend. There's a deluge of them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 20:10
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:People didn't talk about the fake news ecosystem back then because it wasn't a thing yet. It needed every right-wing uncle to be on Facebook and Twitter to have enough of an audience. One fake article isn't a trend, but this year it has become a trend. There's a deluge of them. so you're defining fake news as "something which only exists on social media and began in 2016"? tabloid journalism and the half-penny press are over a century old. the john birch society was founded in 1958. fortean times is from 1973. coast to coast am started broadcasting in 1984. drudge report kicked off in 1996. internet hoaxes have been around longer than that. the problem isn't new, mass awareness of and anger towards the problem is new - before 2016 people didn't feel as injured by fake news, it was something to laugh at rather than a potential reason that trump won the election
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 20:35
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:so you're defining fake news as "something which only exists on social media and began in 2016"? tabloid journalism and the half-penny press are over a century old. the john birch society was founded in 1958. fortean times is from 1973. coast to coast am started broadcasting in 1984. drudge report kicked off in 1996. internet hoaxes have been around longer than that. the problem isn't new, mass awareness of and anger towards the problem is new - before 2016 people didn't feel as injured by fake news, it was something to laugh at rather than a potential reason that trump won the election So you're saying that fake news should definitely still be an important issue.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 20:48
|
|
|
Bip Roberts posted:So you're saying that fake news should definitely still be an important issue. sure, but are people really complaining about fake news which has been around forever, or idiots on social media which is impolite so let's talk about lack of truth in journalism. all i'm saying is that fake news isn't new and it's not suddenly a problem now, it's been a problem for a long time that people are suddenly keenly interested in discussing for reasons
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 21:01
|
|
|
I love the Fortean Times. It's a journal of weird stuff, like frog rain and people who woke up at their own funeral. Conflating it with the type of "fake news" that people are het up about now is very... odd. One might think that someone was trying to muddy the waters a little...
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 21:02
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:I love the Fortean Times. It's a journal of weird stuff, like frog rain and people who woke up at their own funeral. Conflating it with the type of "fake news" that people are het up about now is very... odd. One might think that someone was trying to muddy the waters a little... "this fake media which i understand as satire is both cool and good, unlike the fake media that the simpletons consume to cater to their preferences"
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 21:07
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:"this fake media which i understand as satire is both cool and good, unlike the fake media that the simpletons consume to cater to their preferences" Oooh, these waters are getting a bit muddy alright. I'd better wear some wellies. You know what people mean by "fake news", right? It's those 100% made-up Facebook forwards with a strong political focus? *Exactly* the same as some fluff about an Indonesian guy who found a picture of Elmo in his toast in the Fortean Times. Good grief. You think people are falling for this "both sides are the same" bullshit? I bet if Donald Trump shot someone in broad daylight on 5th Avenue, you'd be all like "But once, Hillary Clinton shoved another kid in the sandbox when she was 5 and cut his lip! BOTH SIDES ARE THE SAME!"
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 21:12
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:You talk about the Washington Post like it's a fuckin charity. Ironically, MSM media like WaPo, NYT, WSJ, and etc are shriveling up partly because of nonprofit or independent media. The main reason being their ad venue is down due to craigslist decimating the classifieds sections of all newsprint media. Fake news is also a way to generate revenue by being an rear end in a top hat but that's another time. Independent media is usually willing to criticize policies or leaders, a contrasting opinion which people kind of want to hear. It's a little dangerous since it plays into biases and creates echo chambers. I agree that branding these sites as fake news is one way at attempt to discredit them through the smokescreen and try to rebuild their credibility in the eyes of the public.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 21:48
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:Oooh, these waters are getting a bit muddy alright. I'd better wear some wellies. I really dont know why some people are falling over themselves trying to dismiss this poo poo. "Yeah but the establishment press got whipped into a frenzy with nationalism, fake intelligence and public shaming of doubters after 9/11!" 
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2016 23:44
|
|
|
rkajdi posted:This is the kind of idea that needs to die. Being ignorant is a shame, not a virtue. Complaining that people are "Liberal Elitists" for having a fairly uncontroversial opinion about a fairly bad Shakespeare play (Titus Andronicus). This anti-intellectual stupidity is why we are stick in this post-fact era. You defer to people who are more educated and well-read on topics, instead of pulling a Trumpite and saying "Book learning is for urban queers. Just trust Jesus and common sense." The uneducated have less valuable opinions on subjects because they are literally ignorant on them. The solution is easy, but for all the hard work these types seem to want to put forward, reading an actual book is motherfucking kryptonite. You are fundamentally missing the point. The liberal Elitist knock is to the sort of person assigning a greater cachet of artistic merit to a work than it really deserves which Shakespeare is a key example of. Its like somebody explaining why they are so much more educated because they read Harry Potter. The value in Shakespeare is as a means of entertainment and a way of observing the cultural style of the times more relevant to the man in the street than a more serious work run off as a book. On performance art and famous performance artists, I would say there is a fairly compelling argument that Filthy Frank's dadaist stylings coupled with his sub count would make him a far more famous and influential performance artist than Abramovic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:01
|
|
|
The whole thing with calling the very pedestrian modern art at Comet Ping Pong "degenerate" is highly reminiscent of the Nazis' degenerate art campaign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art I used to hang out at Comet and go to parties there, it's a family pizza place during the day, and 21+ music venue after 10pm some nights. They have a stage in the back and they tends to book artsy underground acts. Its location is off the beaten path so the shows draw a very niche crowd - I doubt James makes much money off the parties, it's just that he is a loving hipster. (Most of the shows I went to were not all ages, I definitely remember getting carded at the door.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 01:00
|
|
|
This isn't 100% on topic because it isn't a completely fake article from a fake website being shared on Facebook, but it's truly important to the topic of Fake News (2016 propaganda). My browsing history is full of politics searches and I was just served this (highly targeted) ad on Youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CydPR2SQJSY Don't forget that the "Hilary will start a war with Russia and only Donald Trump can bring peace" narrative was a complete fabrication from Russian propaganda farms. And now this.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 04:38
|
|
|
Interview with the dude that went to investigate comet ping pong. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/07/us/edgar-welch-comet-pizza-fake-news.html
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 12:09
|
|
|
I've been following Nakedcap's followup to Wapo propornot fiasco and it's been quite interesting over the past few days. Washington Post Makes Bare Minimum Retreat from Article Defaming Naked Capitalism and Other Sites quote:Our lawyer demanded a retraction, a prominent public apology, and an equally prominent opportunity to reply. He asked for a reply in three business days. We Launch PropOrNot.Org To Identify Inept Propagandists and School Amplifiers Like The Washington Post on How to Spot Them quote:We trust readers will enjoy and link to our new site, PropOrNot.org: Your Friendly Guide to Better Propaganda. Its aim is to combat serious deterioration of the standards of American propaganda, with the ultimate goal of restoring the US to its standing of a propaganda export powerhouse. Other article comments on site posted:Stephen Douglas
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 12:59
|
|
|
Plinkey posted:Interview with the dude that went to investigate comet ping pong.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 13:00
|
|
|
Tim Raines IRL posted:As someone who's had a hobby of reading conspiracy nutter forums on and off for years running, I think this is just as paranoid and nutty a thing to say as 2/3rds of the poo poo in the pizzagate voat. I didn't say pizzagate itself was definitely a deliberate tactic, but there seems to be a broad trend of neo-nazis (which we apparently have to call the alt-right, or something) trying to tie politicians to pedophile rings, which is why I cite Jo Cox, due to the National Front, BNP and other far-right groups in the UK publishing material claiming she was protecting a group of immigrants who were assaulting children. That's a thing which happened, not just something my supposedly raging paranoia is creating out of nothing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 15:13
|
|
|
El Pollo Blanco posted:I didn't say pizzagate itself was definitely a deliberate tactic, but there seems to be a broad trend of neo-nazis (which we apparently have to call the alt-right, or something) trying to tie politicians to pedophile rings, which is why I cite Jo Cox, due to the National Front, BNP and other far-right groups in the UK publishing material claiming she was protecting a group of immigrants who were assaulting children. That's a thing which happened, not just something my supposedly raging paranoia is creating out of nothing. haven't there also been d&d threads that have tied politicians to pedophile rings? since when did this become a specific neonazi thing?
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 17:43
|
|
|
CheeseSpawn posted:I've been following Nakedcap's followup to Wapo propornot fiasco and it's been quite interesting over the past few days. It's good stuff and I hope they nail the Washington Post to the wall in court.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 17:44
|
|
|
Mulaney Power Move posted:haven't there also been d&d threads that have tied politicians to pedophile rings? since when did this become a specific neonazi thing? It is an actual thing that actually happened in the UK. When something that sounds like a conspiracy is proved to be true, conspiracy theorists go absolutely crazy trying to hang it on everyone they don't like. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10950111/The-alleged-paedophile-ring-at-the-heart-of-the-British-Establishment.html
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 17:50
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:It is an actual thing that actually happened in the UK. When something that sounds like a conspiracy is proved to be true, conspiracy theorists go absolutely crazy trying to hang it on everyone they don't like. Politicians in the US or other places besides the UK have never been tied to pedophile rings? Are you quite sure? while most/all of pizzagate is schizophrenia and not evidence of some vast conspiracy, the idea that the extremely wealthy and powerful don't get their most extreme fetishes satisfied strikes me as naive. I don't believe the ridiculous illuminati/super-cabal theory. I think there are probably all kinds of politicians and superrich people diddling kids, I bet some of them do it in groups, but I'd be sorta shocked if there was a top-down structure where you pay $10k to be a Level-1 Illuminati Kid Diddler and then $100K to be a Level-2. So, that's where the pizzagate narrative immediately runs off the rails, but the starting premise of ".01%ers are probably doing all kinds of illegal poo poo all the time and not getting in trouble for it" seems like a no duh. Having spent as much time as I have reading conspiracy forums, it would take a lot to convince me that "neo-nazis" are more likely to engage in "politicians are not just evil but actually supervillians" than people of other ilks. Schizophrenia doesn't break down along party lines afaik.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 21:46
|
|
|
Tim Raines IRL posted:Politicians in the US or other places besides the UK have never been tied to pedophile rings? Are you quite sure? Reading comprehension, dude. I was providing an example of a place where it *did* happen, not saying it could never have happened anywhere else.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 21:48
|
|
|
Mulaney Power Move posted:haven't there also been d&d threads that have tied politicians to pedophile rings? since when did this become a specific neonazi thing? As far as I'm aware, the only one I've seen is about Operation Yewtree, which was a discussion about an actual wideranging police investigation, and not baseless smears? I'm sure baseless smears occurred in the thread though, yes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 22:30
|
|
|
El Pollo Blanco posted:As far as I'm aware, the only one I've seen is about Operation Yewtree, which was a discussion about an actual wideranging police investigation, and not baseless smears? I'm sure baseless smears occurred in the thread though, yes. First article I could find and its a poo poo source, but the political elite paedo rabbit hole goes way, way deeper than yewtree. Given the country I live in and the laws I live under I am unwilling to discuss it any further than that  the daily heil posted:In the bombshell letter written in 1986, MI5 boss Sir Antony Duff revealed two sources had accused an MP of child abuse. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mi5-helped-margaret-thatcher-cover-6120006
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 23:42
|
|
|
Tim Raines IRL posted:Politicians in the US or other places besides the UK have never been tied to pedophile rings? Are you quite sure? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2016 23:52
|
|
|
Pizzagate hard stops at "there is no basement in the Comet." Adherence beyond learning that fact is insanity.
|
|
#
?
Dec 9, 2016 01:01
|
|
|
So was the guy who fired 3 shots in a crowded pizzeria sentenced to a NY Times interview Must have a good lawyer
|
|
#
?
Dec 9, 2016 01:16
|
|
|
Tim Raines IRL posted:while most/all of pizzagate is schizophrenia and not evidence of some vast conspiracy, the idea that the extremely wealthy and powerful don't get their most extreme fetishes satisfied strikes me as naive. I don't believe the ridiculous illuminati/super-cabal theory. I think there are probably all kinds of politicians and superrich people diddling kids, I bet some of them do it in groups, but I'd be sorta shocked if there was a top-down structure where you pay $10k to be a Level-1 Illuminati Kid Diddler and then $100K to be a Level-2. So, that's where the pizzagate narrative immediately runs off the rails, but the starting premise of ".01%ers are probably doing all kinds of illegal poo poo all the time and not getting in trouble for it" seems like a no duh. What DOES actually exist is 100% factual child prostitution rings. Underage sex workers (really they're slaves, they can't leave and get paid very little if nothing at all) are shipped in from economically depressed regions in eastern europe and southeast asia on rotations and then shipped out again. Sometimes they get busted, most of the time they don't. The fact that these exist tells you that if you have the money and the connections, you can indeed purchase underage sex. Which is loving nightmarish and I can't believe it happens in 2016 America. But it doesn't mean there's a culture at work beyond pure naked capitalism. This is free-market thinking taken to its natural conclusion. *A lot of people instinctually feel that the ultra-rich MUST be engaging in pedophilia behind closed doors because they know the rich are evil and love to use power to stomp on the weak, and pedophilia is the ultimate expression of that power. I'm one of them but I know there's no evidence it's true. I honestly think most people just hate the rich but it's societally unacceptable to criticize them for not sharing their wealth, so instead we fantasize about all the evil things they do when the peasants aren't looking. I think this plays a big part in Pizza Gate, rather than Fake News. People were already willing to believe and a pizza restaurant is as good as any. That's what makes it such great propaganda.
|
|
#
?
Dec 9, 2016 02:26
|
|
|
the black husserl posted:Nah, there isn't some secret culture of pedophilia* among the ultra-rich any more than there are Satanic Sex Cults in Memphis TN. Pedophilia manifests among the rich exactly like it does in the poor: a vile compulsion that some people act on. The "120 Days of Sodom" thing you're imagining just isn't really happening any more in America outside of FLDS camps and other religious cults. While this is a nice idea it doesn't fit with what Yewtree and the later operations found in the UK, and as another WASPish country I strongly doubt the US would be different.
|
|
#
?
Dec 9, 2016 05:19
|
|
|
Byolante posted:While this is a nice idea it doesn't fit with what Yewtree and the later operations found in the UK, and as another WASPish country I strongly doubt the US would be different. I'm not sure what you mean. Yewtree was a group of pedophiles who worked together in British entertainment using their unique access to children to commit serial abuse. Monstrous, but what does it have to do with the US? No evidence of a system or culture of pedophilia was found (thank god), just a bunch of rich criminals and the enablers who didn't want to report them because it might cost their jobs. quote:The offences were mostly opportunistic, although child grooming was involved in some cases.[104][106] The first and final known offences were in 1955 and 2009 respectively.[102][104] The period containing most frequent offending was between 1966 and '76 (when he was aged 40–50),[103][104][106] coinciding with his "peak [celebrity] status".[111] The most frequent offending was during 1975 and '76 with each year having 15 offences recorded in it.[112] The exact same type of horror went down at Penn State. Are you suggesting that there's a culture of child abuse at Penn State? Or is it more likely one pedophile committed awful crimes and a bunch of cowards were too chickenshit to call him out? Either way, your conviction that a culture of serial child abuse absolutely must exist in the US, completely independent of any evidence, is why theories like Pizzagate are perfectly suited for the current climate. Expect many more of them in the future.
|
|
#
?
Dec 9, 2016 05:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 23:40 |
|
|
the black husserl posted:Are you suggesting that there's a culture of child abuse at Penn State
|
|
#
?
Dec 9, 2016 05:55
|
|