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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Okay, but that is the same as the US going from 90% farmers to 9% farmers over a generation. It's not everyone just slaving to serve the few remaining farmers, it's people running off to make teeshirts and arby's burgers and stuff for eachother. Stuff that wasn't worth doing. We're already not handling that transition well, I don't think that repeating variations of it with less and less workers needed over time is a "solution"
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Dec 1, 2016 20:09
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The solution certainly isn't that we need to hold some sort of eternal empire of people driving trucks and working at arby's because it just happens that the technology from before I was born was good and the technology made since all happened to be devil magic. I'm not advocating that at all, merely pointing out that "just ride it out, new jobs will pop up" isn't working now and can't really be expected to work better for no particular reason. Major structural changes need to happen to allow people to make living wages while doing less work, and less technical work, such as shortening the work week while massively increasing wages, job creation through major infrastructure projects, mincome, and that's assuming the general population doesn't start questioning capitalism as a whole due to it holding us back in these regards
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Dec 1, 2016 20:27
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Okay but what are the rich doing to get money and what are they spending that money on? Like this all reads as that D&D thing where magic and dragons exist and are common but somehow everything else is just a society of eternal medieval europe somehow because it's not fun to worry about how that stuff would change. The question you're asking is "in a world with incredibly cheap goods but no jobs, how does capitalism work" even though the actual point of the thread is.. that question. As automation gets cheaper and better, production will go up while jobs and income for the working class will go down. The entire point of my post yesterday (that you misunderstood then, and seem to have forgotten?) is that this problem doesn't get fixed without lots of poverty and unnecessary deaths unless the system makes some pretty drastic changes to adapt to a reality where labor keeps going down and production keeps going up.
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Dec 2, 2016 17:03
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I guess I am questioning the assumption that once automation happens the rich will have everything and the poor unemployed will not. If everything is truely so cheap to manufacture that everything costs less than minimum wage to make then why are the poor without? If everyone is poor who are the rich and what are they buying and selling? The whole story makes no sense. You are right, that scenario doesn't hold forever, but that is the trend: production and big business is up, while middle and lower class income and jobs aren't keeping up. You're literally completely right that this is an untenable situation without some crazy dystopia poo poo happening, and it's already having negative effects and will only get worse. The thing is, it won't be like a switch getting flipped, it will just get slowly worse over decades as companies realize that automation is cheaper or easier in this industry or that, and the market will correct itself by feeding and sheltering less and less people. This already happens and will continue to happen, and yeah eventually it will probably reach a point where the whole thing implodes, but waiting for that instead of bring proactive is gonna leaf to a lot of suffering in the meantime (source: the real world, every study that says we already have enough houses and food to feed everyone but it's a "distribution problem")
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Dec 2, 2016 20:55
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Tei posted:Software bugs happens and sometimes cost companies millions. That or they replace 1 salaried manager and 4 asst managers for each of the 5 locations in a city, probably over half a million dollars a year, with 1 or 2 high 5 figure IT reps who barely work unless ManageBot has trouble. Still a pretty big win
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Dec 5, 2016 17:02
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I guess I'm more imagining that store management could likely be simplified enough that area/regional managers could handle it, kitchen staff could be pared down, and the bulk of employees would be asst manager equivalent, where their job would mostly be registers and cleaning and customer service. Individual store managers start managing multiple stores, assistant managers start splitting up the in-store manager responsibilities (mostly customer service problems) and the number of kitchen staff drops a bit. Completely eliminating roles is a little further off, yeah.
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Dec 5, 2016 19:15
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ur wrong im right posted:That's why it's every patriotic American's duty to monkeywrench, steal time, and generally be as inefficient as possible. You think I post on this forum from home? I'm fulfilling my patriotic duty as we speak. For real though it's hosed up that I could probably do my work most days in 5 hours instead of 8, and a computer could have the people on the other end entering poo poo instead of making them write it, fax it, then have me type it back in. 2/3 of my team could probably get cut with the right setup, and the rest would catch mistakes and follow up on them instead of doing any data entry by hand. hosed up that this is seen as a bad thing because of capitalism, instead of and excuse to just let people work less
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Dec 6, 2016 00:07
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turn it up TURN ME ON posted:I think you're missing what the other people are saying. They're software engineers or automation engineers, and they're saying that more jobs like theirs will be created. They're saying that when a menial job is created it will be replaced by a job maintaining whatever thing replaced them. The problem is that it won't be 1 to 1. 10 workers get replaced by 1 or 2 techs and a robot. A team of 20 people in an office get the brunt replaced by a program, 2 extra hires in another department and one person to audit the process. The jobs just disappear, and maybe we see a 10% increase in the jobs to create and maintain these processes and a giant falloff in the entry level positions that are being automated. If someone thinks that, with no changes, is good, then they're on some dark enlightenment poo poo
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Dec 6, 2016 00:34
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That atm graph isn't something I would describe as conclusive; it doesn't consider these numbers with relation to population, number of branches, the existence of online banking, etc etc. It's also worth noting that right as ATMs are introduced on that graph, the rate of growth of bank tellers DOES fall off. This likely isn't completely from ATMs, the introduction of computers in general probably cut down on a fair amount of work... Really it would be more useful to have figures comparing tellers and ATMs to population and number of branches, to see how those numbers changed over time.
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Dec 6, 2016 18:17
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Holy poo poo I actually just went back and read the article and the second half of it actually just says that teller employment is falling and projected to continue falling due to e-banking lmao
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Dec 6, 2016 18:21
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Death Bot posted:Holy poo poo I actually just went back and read the article and the second half of it actually just says that teller employment is falling and projected to continue falling due to e-banking lmao Can we please go back to the fact that the article just barely manages to avoid saying "the number didn't go down when everyone thought but it actually is right now and will continue to" Like, the expansion happened and now that there's market saturation even within the context of an article positing automation doesn't (didn't?) reduce employment in this one field, they still project an 8% drop in employment of bank tellers due to the automation of online banking.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:15
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:And even if a specific job can't be automated, there are smarter, more talented people working in higher paying jobs that are going to be automated, and then you're going to be competing against them, and since they're desperate, they'll take a pay cut. Alternatively, enough of the hard parts get made easy that instead of 1 full time/ salaried PM you have 2 part timers working 25 a piece for half the cost and no benefits, or you delegate the responsibilities throughout the team and promote one person to Team Lead (read: more responsibilities for almost exactly the same pay) and cut out the PM role entirely
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Dec 23, 2016 18:49
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Yeah, everyone else is talking about magical computers that can do literally anything a person can but also are just boring old spreadsheets that don't do anything. It's a weird sci-fi story we are supposed to fret about! I've been doing data entry for years and I'm definitely doing the work of ten people at all times. The thing you just said is literally my job and I only make 12/hr lmfao
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Dec 26, 2016 04:04
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Likely large install cost and maybe not quite effective enough... yet. That yet is key, and as effectiveness goes up and min wage (hopefully right) goes up it maybe starts looking better to let go of a few people. It's never going to replace the whole store, but if you can let go of a few part timers and make the leftovers learn to troubleshoot that's one step.
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Dec 27, 2016 00:14
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Taco bell has an ordering app and burger King has delivery in some areas. Add in driverless vehicles and every fast food job that isn't making food disappears, automate that, even partially, and entire stores get run by a few maintenance men and a few managers who keep the barely existent front end running
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Dec 27, 2016 01:10
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rscott posted:This is, like all liberal solutions at the end of the day, an individual solution to a systemic problem. Really in an ideal world this thread would be an opportunity; we are at a point where the global society can start rethinking work and begin providing for everyone like we've been able to for ages. Instead people are either arguing whether this is possible or trying to give advice for how to fight for the right to work lmao
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Dec 27, 2016 17:37
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