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My main curiosity about this is that knowing the language appears to give you the ability to see the future. Is this permanent? It seems to be. If so, why doesn't Amy Adams just make some different decisions and keep looking forward until she gets the Golden Ending? No sad dead kids, no marrying Hawkeye and then divorcing him later, etc. But I guess it's more like, she has no regrets because good things came from that grief and loss or something? I don't know. I would use future seeing powers to cheat at gambling. Do not give me super powers, I am an rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 2, 2016 20:04
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:The book makes it easier to understand. Basically her mind is trapped between fate and free will, the tragedy being that she can't ever again perceive wholly through either lens. The heptapods don't experience linear time, and coming to an understanding of their symbolic language grants the main character perception of cyclical time, where every choice is pre-ordained. Oh. Thanks for explaining it! I liked the movie. The whole learning the language and communication thing was fascinating. It was very good about explaining that it's not as simple as back and forth translation and instant understanding of context and intent. As an ASL interpreter, I appreciated that. Very realistic and very true.(I have always been miffed at the existence of Universal Translators but endured it for its necessity to tell the story and such. But language really is much too complicated and situational for simple universal translation.) I don't like this whole everything is pre ordained thing you're mentioning though. Destiny existing sucks because it means no choices matter and things are mostly pointless (the experience and lessons still have value though.) But it's cool, it's just a story exploring concepts and I don't have to like or approve of every part of it. It's cool to consider things I don't like.
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Dec 2, 2016 21:46
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Maybe it's less that choices are pre-ordained, maybe that's a bad way for me to phrase it, more like there is no choice. Hehe. You're trying and thank you but that is actually worse. But it's okay, it really is. Like I said, free will vs destiny or whatever has been a theme explored a whole lot and my preference for free will and discomfort and dislike of fate doesn't mean I can't entertain the concept. (I just find it very depressing!) I like that they kept it vague in the movie and weren't so obvious about how those events were set in stone. To me it came off more as she choose to follow the path because it was worth it to her and it was valuable to her. Not that she just had to accept the path because gently caress her and coped well with that because she's just solid. (Both are fine but to me one is better than the other.) To me the message of, you can see that bad things are going to happen but they come with good things so eat up is great. The message of, you can see bad things are going to happen and you can't change them no matter what so deal with it is less great. (This is really simplifying it, I know it's more complicated than that.) I got enough from the fairly realistic depiction of interaction with a foreign language and the challenges of communication and understanding to make me happy. Everything else was just gravy.
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Dec 2, 2016 23:13
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LGD posted:In other words it's a closed causal loop where extremely valuable information arises from nothing, which means that either things are actually preordained, or that something like alternate timelines exists and it's possible to act upon causality to do things like create loops. Oh my gosh I can finally invoke my gimmick and talk about Chrono Cross! I'm so excited! Obviously they just need to clone Louise so they can use her time powers to create an ideal timeline. Also they need to add about 12 more characters that are really only distinguished by a speech mannerism or accent. And somehow they wind up in Japan? It's good, trust me. BeanpolePeckerwood posted:
Are you trying to explain it to me or convince me it's good or something? Am I displaying a lack of understanding? I think I get it, she's seen how things are gonna be and she's gonna make the decision every time because that's how it works. But... you're calling it a choice. And if this is the case than it's not really a choice it's more of... I can't really think of a good word. I guess mandate suffices but it doesn't really convey what I'm trying to say here. If it's something she must do and will always choose to do than I'm not sure it's a choice. I mean... she's doing it but you're saying there is no other choice. She's choosing but it's not a choice. Do you understand what I'm saying? Am I making sense? I don't like that it's not a choice. It's more valiant, heroic and meaningful if she knows what's going to happen but chooses to go through with it anyway. Establishing that it's, for lack of a better word, destiny kind of takes away her agency. She still nobly accepts it and that makes her real good but... not as good. I don't like it, but it doesn't ruin the movie or make it bad. It's definitely something to talk about/discuss. The nature of choice and free will. But this probably is too serious for the casual poo poo posting forum so excuse me. Jenner fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Dec 3, 2016 |
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Dec 3, 2016 06:14
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/\/\ Right. I'm glad I got it and I didn't think you were being condescending. I was just seeking clarity to make sure we were understanding each other/communicating well. (Arrival.txt) And, while I'm not trying to get you to agree with me, can you see why it bothers me/rubs me the wrong way?
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Dec 3, 2016 08:44
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Mywhatacleanturtle posted:I loved Arrival, but I have some questions about it. Well since there are no such thing as real choices because everything is set in stone and you're going to make the same decisions every time no matter what but just with the knowledge that you're gonna do it now It's not like they can do anything about it since it's inevitable? They're just going through the motions. At least it works out for them in the end since humans save them 3000 years later. Or you can ascribe to my interpretation of the movie and see that the Heptapods see that one of them is going to die but that their whole society is going to be saved for it far down the line. They are willing to still make the choice that kills one of them because it ultimately saves all of them. Scarificing one to save many. It also explains why they are so chill and just shrugs about being bombed and don't go on the war path/defensive like most intelligent societies that are attacked do. Because they know it's coming and have already accepted it. Super heroic and very good. 
Jenner fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Dec 3, 2016 |
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Dec 3, 2016 21:52
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pap schmear posted:speculating: when humans learn the aliens' language, the language shapes the brain so the humans can experience non-linear time (cf. Sapir-Whorf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity). If so, what amazing ability would the aliens gain in return from learning the human language? The power of ....? Knowing the English language grants you the ability to have really awful opinions and the inability to shut the gently caress up about them. 
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Dec 4, 2016 07:49
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