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Higsian posted:Before the invention of work for pay humans were hunter-gatherers or subsistence farmers right there i stopped reading cause jfc whenever someone writes that as a beginning to thier screed it doesnt go anywhere good I'm gonna go against the grain and say the OP sucks and it's yet another post about how great life would be if only the true leftists came to power and then brought forth the next golden age. And like, I don't even exactly disagree with it, it's just... Like what's your point? Seriously? All of you True Leftists who have made shitpost upon shitpost here, what is your point? What should we do? I hear a lot of populist rhetoric of "we need actual leftists not neoliberals" (Drain the swamp!) but while that's all well and good, what you're suggesting is basically a daydream. All of your rhetoric hinges on the idea that the far-left would have total control of the government, that they would totally fulfill all their promises, that people would not be resistant to the proposed changes and so on. For instance, y'all assume two things about Bernie: 1) That he would beat Trump (very brave assumption) and 2) That he would not be cockblocked by any old white fucks who have ever uttered the word "communism". And I'm not even gonna mention third party candidates because  My issue with your giant rear end OP is that your idea of a leftist revolution is "either we get what we want or we go home" which is why you and yours will never have any power ever. If you want to win, you need to start working with center-left and centrists. I don't give a flying gently caress what your thoughts on imperialism or on the War of Iraq are. The simple fact is that the Republicans have a rock solid voter base and they are more than willing to work with detestable elements in the name of votes. That's why we have an actual nazi in the white house now and republicans control all branches of government. The sooner the left learn they need to mend bridges with leftist allies, the sooner we can actually do something positive. Or we can keep doing this whole circular firing squad and leftist dick measuring. up to you
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Dec 13, 2016 02:29
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My other issue is that the US is more of a capitalist than a socialist society. Always has been, probably always will be. Your ideas are considered nontraditional and are unlikely to be accepted by people in the country. You need to climb that particular hurdle before you can even hope to have your ideas, let alone your party, to be accepted. The US has always glorified business and corporations, that's why Obama simply cannot take a stance on DAPL. You can't demonize your allies whenever they don't lay political shuffleboard the way you want them to. Especially since there's a good reason he doesn't.
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Dec 13, 2016 02:34
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Call Me Charlie posted:Just pointing how defeatist this is and how funny the parallel is if you imagine this point being made in October by somebody that supported the Romney/McMullin faction of the Republicans. Exactly. And yet, here we are.
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Dec 13, 2016 03:25
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Call Me Charlie posted:So when a person like you comes in and goes 'well, hey, we have to go along with the third way wing of democrats because if we don't the right will line us up against the wall!' it rings kind of hollow. I give you a year before it stops being so hollow. Tops. Call Me Charlie posted:Every call to reach out to the common man and primary out centrists that put us in this situation will be ignored. This is a bullshit right wing talking point and I hate, hate, hate that the True Leftists spout it.
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Dec 13, 2016 05:05
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"Hey guys! One of the major parties that has recently got its rear end kicked by Pretty Much Literal Nazis is only sort of left! Let's burn it down so that we can get full communism going!! That won't make us seem fractured and won't backfire at all!"
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Dec 13, 2016 05:11
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Paradoxish posted:The problem is that the well has been poisoned so badly for certain terms that the support only really shows up in polls where you describe the actual policy rather than use terms like "socialized medicine" or "universal healthcare." This is an excellent point too. Leftists really don't understand how deep in poo poo they are and how much they need to win back trust in American politics, American government and leftism itself. For that they need all the allies they can get, and not do silly poo poo like burning bridges with potential supporters. Even if they are centrists or neoliberals. If you want to replace supremely useless employees like DWS, okay that is a point. But going after people just cause they're not left enough, especially when they're politically active and have experience, is foolish. If you really want an American left, you need to do the following: 1) Stop with your neoliberals!NEOLIBERALS!NEOLIBERALS! bullshit. Allies are allies. If you cannot accept this, give up right now you have already lost. 2) Run educational campaigns about how great Universal Healthcare and poo poo is without using the exact words. Call it All Access Healthcare or something and drive home how good it is before Republicans can try to corrupt the term. Same thing for other leftist goals. 3) Decouple leftism from its perceived negative ties. Talk about actual socialist countries like Sweden and how great it is there. 4) Getting rid of FPTP would be ideal. Republicans have a strong and consistent voting base which Democrats/Glorious True Leftists won't have for the forseeable future. We need to go hard on an alternative. 5) Use campaigns to emphasize Republican failures to attack them and their Nazi allies. These have to be public and perceived failures. We need to do it as much as the right wing did it with Benghazi. Your much beloved True Leftism simply doesn't even fit in the current national dialogue. When it does, then you can talk about how the real problem is actually centrists.
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Dec 13, 2016 07:37
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Higsian posted:Your entire post with the arguable exception of 1 basically describes a "True Leftism" platform in America. It's a perfectly solid plan to serve and empower the American people. A lot wouldn't agree that it goes as far as needed, but nobody would fight against doing those things. If you actually pursued those goals with the added caveat of "support where possible, and absolutely do not undermine, other leftist movements and activists" then I don't think anyone should hit you with a no true leftist stigma (until you at least hit those goals). The problem a lot of leftists have is that we don't think the centrist politicians and journalists will actually pursue those goals with anything approaching conviction because it's not what they actually want. If they had pursued those things rigorously we wouldn't be having this argument. The left can't afford to give the centre the benefit of the doubt any more and needs to say gently caress the centre if it's not going to actually pull to the left. I don't think it will and many other leftists feel the same and we can't afford to wait and see. We need action whether or not the centre will come with. If we're proven wrong and centrists suddenly decided to pursue what you outline in your post, and the equivalent in other countries, we'd all be very happy. Yeah I guess I can agree on this, sure. holy poo poo and you were calling me defeatist jfc
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Dec 13, 2016 09:02
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Call Me Charlie posted:Just because I think we need to drive a stake through the heart of Clintonism/Third Way doesn't mean I'm a defeatist. Please click any of those hyperlinks and tell me how those are the actions of people on our side. ...seriously? very well. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/whos-killing-the-public-o_b_334372.html a 6 year old article from some HuffPo True Leftist parroting your points. This is exactly the sort of poo poo I'm talking about when I warn leftists about not burning bridges with allies. Obama realized his mistakes and he tried to work within the confines of the system. Obviously it failed, though we did get the ACA. BTW, why exactly did it fail? Oh yes, Republicans demonized the poo poo out of it for years. Who was the previous major proponent of the public option? Why none other than she-witch and n-n-n-neoliberal scourge Hillary Clinton. Though if you plan on taking out your frustrations on Obama's legacy and do not consider him an ally then 1) lol and 2) within a year Obama will be remembered as one of the most honorable, charismatic and effective presidents of the last 2 decades. You are not winning friends or political power by spurning him. http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/14/clinton-and-sanders-why-the-big-deal-about-denmark.html It was a debate between her and Sanders. Sanders went for his usual (correct) talking points while she went for pretty much the same sentiment but using nationalism to make her seem more right. Maybe not the best source for supporting your points? Do note I specifically talk about their comments on Denmark, not their comments on taxation.
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Dec 13, 2016 10:21
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Call Me Charlie posted:You literally posted "If you really want an American left, you need to do the following: (...) 3) Decouple leftism from its perceived negative ties. Talk about actual socialist countries like Sweden and how great it is there." He tried that and she discredited that by saying that we aren't Denmark (explicitly implying that those policies wouldn't work in America) And as usual, people who say this poo poo don't understand political optics. Higsian posted:We can work with someone who voted for Trump because they were sick of centrist Democrats and voting for the lesser of 2 evils; we can't work with people who don't actually believe in supporting and empowering the people. These people are exactly the sort of dipshit centrists you're railing against though.
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Dec 13, 2016 20:15
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