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Ocrassus posted:I kinda sorta agree. I think my problem is with the 'we want jobs' thing. Short of luddism, it is not going to happen in the long term. The best case scenario is for worker cooperatives to own the means of production for most vital goods, with federal oversight to ensure that nobody is getting denied things by these councils because they don't subscribe to the correct religion or whatever (something that I could definitely see happening). This ensures power is divested to the people in a meaningful way. We really need to kick the whole 'dignity of work' thing out of our society, it has no place anymore. This is my main gripe with the basic wage. It devalues work. I mean, modern work is without a doubt exploitive, dehumanizing, and alienating, but a perpetual class of basic wagers floating through society without a purpose other than consumption sounds pretty dystopian to me. And I don't buy the whole "time to make art" poo poo. People will sit on their fat asses and do nothing. Workers cooperatives are neat-o and all but it's not going to solve the problem of modernism's slow march toward grinding every bit of humanity out of us. Gio fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 18:08
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Al-Saqr posted:I like how you're so detached from poor people and how much they suffer just to make it from day to day that giving them 15$ an hour automatically means that they'll be lazy instead of oh, say, being able to afford the homes they're in, being able to feed their children, being able to afford the medicine or insurance they're being hosed by and not having to work three shifts a day just to make sure they can survive. basic wage != living wage
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Dec 12, 2016 18:15
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Or maybe I'm loving wrong. I meant to say "basic income".
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Dec 12, 2016 18:18
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edit != quote
Gio fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 18:35
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NewForumSoftware posted:a job is part of an identity but things like family and religion usually play a bigger part here in America Everything goes hand-in-hand, there are no absolutes. Gio fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 18:54
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With regards to the topic and related to what I've been saying-- I wholeheartedly agree. People's sense of dillusionment is the feeling they have no control over their own destinies, over their own work, so I am all for any efforts to disperse power from the oligarchs. So yeah, people do want jobs--good ones that empower them, that give them a feeling of control over their own destinies.
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Dec 12, 2016 19:04
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Paradoxish posted:Right, so how do you do this? Like, if those jobs literally don't exist or it's cheaper/more efficient to outsource or automate them then how do you create this sense of empowerment? If you're creating good jobs through subsidies or protectionism then you are for all intents and purposes pushing more power onto employers, who are now employing people only because they absolutely have to. You're just talking about a form of welfare where people are now reliant on government assistance for their continued employment status. I honestly don't know. I know the problem but I can't pin a solution.
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Dec 12, 2016 20:44
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OwlFancier posted:Before the invention of work for pay humans were crippled by a sense of disempowerment and since we invented it everyone's been really happy. I never said working at Walmart was empowering, but for many I'm sure it's at least slightly better than being unemployed. But whatever, keep putting words in my mouth.
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Dec 12, 2016 20:50
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NewForumSoftware posted:Now ask yourself why gently caress, thanks.
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Dec 12, 2016 21:08
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Wall-E, the new leftist utopia, apparently.
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Dec 12, 2016 21:11
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OwlFancier posted:Also why do you think sitting around doing nothing is worse than working until you die? I think it's better just based on personal experience. I'm sure many agree and some disagree, the latter of whom would do nothing in the future automated volunteer utopia. Main Paineframe posted:The basic assumption inherent in your position is that working at Wal-Mart qualifies as "fulfilling a useful role in society", because you're assuming that any work that people get paid for is necessarily useful to society (and vice versa). What about volunteering at a homeless shelter? It's not a job, and people don't get paid for it - does that mean it's less useful to society than stocking the shelves at Wal-Mart? Nope, not at all.
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Dec 12, 2016 21:37
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