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OwlFancier posted:Before the invention of work for pay humans were crippled by a sense of disempowerment and since we invented it everyone's been really happy. Only problem with this thought is that people actually had to work to take care of themselves before the concept of work for pay. Like as much fun as it is to imagine that everybody would transform into a self-driven artist in the post-work/basic income world, most of the people would be deeply unhappy unless they also had strong family/community ties to occupy their time. Working at Walmart isn't fun or exactly fulfilling but it's something
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Dec 13, 2016 00:29
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boner confessor posted:it's not hard to find or build community ties. like few people are going to discover their passion as a stained glass window maker or whatever but plenty of people are going to end up volunteering their time just to find something to do. like litter would be a thing of the past, the elderly wouldn't die alone and bored in nursing homes, every little league team would have two coaches for every player, public libraries would drown in free labor etc. It kinda is depending on where you live and your willingness to work with faith based organizations. (And that's ignoring the elephant in the room where all the automation is privately owned which means all your local money is getting funneled away from your community to multinational corporations with no allegiance to anybody)
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Dec 13, 2016 01:49
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SSNeoman posted:Like what's your point? Seriously? All of you True Just pointing how defeatist this is and how funny the parallel is if you imagine this point being made in October by somebody that supported the Romney/McMullin faction of the Republicans. Al-Saqr posted:By the way, if you guys want to watch an amazing documentary about how much of a disasterous Plague Centrism and Feaux-Liberalism is, I highly, HIGHLY reccomend you watch Adam Curtis's 'Hypernormalization' Thanks for posting this. I'm about 30 minutes into it and it's actually grabbed me unlike every other Adam Curtis project I've attempted to watch. Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 02:50
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SSNeoman posted:Exactly. And yet, here we are. Exactly. The extremists on the right - the same people the establishment republicans tried to demoralize and speak down to - refused to accept the status quo and now they control all three branches of government. Sections of the country that both parties wrote off as the blue wall ended up giving Trump the election. Because he actually realized that his message resonated there and that those people could be reached. Now the overnight change that centrists on both sides said could never happen is coming. So when a person like you comes in and goes 'well, hey, we have to go along with the third way wing of democrats because if we don't the right will line us up against the wall!' it rings kind of hollow. There is a path for change but the left is so beaten down and divided they won't take it. Every call to reach out to the common man and primary out centrists that put us in this situation will be ignored. And, ironically, the Trump faction of the Republicans is now co-opting the popular planks of what use to be the Democratic party. So even if the Berniecrats gain control of the party, it's probably be too late. The window is closing on us fast. (That may sound defeatist but we don't really have the luxury of time the tea party/alt-right had to grow) General Dog posted:There's a folly in expecting leftism to take hold in the US that's akin to those who think that democracy would take root in the Middle East if they just had the chance. It's not a lack education or opportunity- the people understand leftism, and largely they reject it. It's not our cup of tea. Except Trump broke with a number of traditionally conservative ideals and that won him the election. boner confessor posted:yeah, my first job was in the laundry of a hospice and i also assisted the CNAs with menial tasks for dinner. tell me all about my own life experiences, friend Great. Now would you assist CNAs if you didn't earn any money while doing it? Would you kiss the wife on the forehead, wave goodbye to your kids and care for (whatever group) for no other reason than to help them out? How long would you do that before you decide 'eh, gently caress it. i'd rather just drink a beer and watch some netflix'? What's the bare minimum you'd have to give back to society before you felt like you had given enough?
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Dec 13, 2016 04:31
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SSNeoman posted:I give you a year before it stops being so hollow. Tops. Considering that I voted for Trump over the third term of Obama and I voted for Rubio over the possibility of being stuck with Patrick Murphy* for multiple terms before an even more extreme republican toppled him...I doubt it. I'm done kicking the can down the road. Centrism is the scenic route to ruin. (*both of those are hyperlinks) SSNeoman posted:This is a bullshit right wing talking point and I hate, hate, hate that the True Leftists spout it. It's really not. I can't tell you how many times (even in D&D) I've been told that because I support labor or that I think that the Democratic party shouldn't exclusively be the party of identity politics, that I'm somehow trying to oppose or silence minority groups. The sad reality is that a large number of the left don't give a gently caress about what's going on as long as whatever social issue they rally around is getting lip service. If Jeb Bush had a come to jesus moment on social issues, I bet the Democrats would try to run him in 2020 and people would go along with it because 'think of all the undecided voters and disillusioned republicans we could pick up  'boner confessor posted:not every day, but working there plenty of volunteer groups, church groups, youth groups like boy scouts etc. came through to spend time with the residents, especially around the holidays. they'd probably do so even more if they didn't have to spend so much time just working to survive Wouldn't call it a dim view of humanity. Most of those people do those things as a communal activity or a way to pay penance for their good fortune. It's a bit idealistic to believe that if people were freed from having to earn a living, that they would replace their jobs with volunteering. That's why I originally said that people without strong family/community ties to occupy their free time would be miserable in a basic income world. I agree with you that people's capacity for leisure isn't infinite. SSNeoman posted:If you really want an American left, you need to do the following: 1. Then we lost. Because neoliberals are not allies. They're snakes in the grass that try to hobble progressive causes behind the scenes while their opponents call them communism personified. 2. It's called medicare for all and it didn't work. Not that the third way democrats ever pushed for it anyways. 3. Doesn't work because our so-called allies say poo poo like '"We are not Denmark … I love Denmark. We are the United States of America and it's our job to rein in the excesses of capitalism so it doesn't run amok." 4-5. Good luck with that. We couldn't even get Obama to make a stink over the congress refusing the confirm his supreme court nomination (which is a whole other can of worms but whatever) Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 08:09
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SSNeoman posted:holy poo poo and you were calling me defeatist jfc Just because I think we need to drive a stake through the heart of Clintonism/Third Way doesn't mean I'm a defeatist. Please click any of those hyperlinks and tell me how those are the actions of people on our side. Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 09:15
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SSNeoman posted:...seriously? very well. So the Republicans are responsible for Obama making a deal with lobbyists in 2009 and for the White House refusing to twist any arms to get the votes needed to include a heavily neutered public option that Obama promised those lobbyists wouldn't be included? Ok. Next tell me how the Republicans are really responsible for Obama's (one of the most honorable, charismatic and effective presidents of the last 2 decades  ) Administration being the one to suggest sequestration with automatic triggers in 2011 https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...7c314_blog.html (I hate linking the Washington Post but it's really difficult to try to find live links to stories from 5 years ago) I hope it's as good as Bill Clinton being forced to reform welfare and sign the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. (And I assume that it's also the Republicans' fault that Obama and the entire DNC decided to back Patrick Murphy - a person with one of the most conservative records in the House Democratic caucus - in my senate race.) SSNeoman posted:http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/14/clinton-and-sanders-why-the-big-deal-about-denmark.html It was a debate between her and Sanders. Sanders went for his usual (correct) talking points while she went for pretty much the same sentiment but using nationalism to make her seem more right. Maybe not the best source for supporting your points? You literally posted "If you really want an American left, you need to do the following: (...) 3) Decouple leftism from its perceived negative ties. Talk about actual socialist countries like Sweden and how great it is there." He tried that and she discredited that by saying that we aren't Denmark (explicitly implying that those policies wouldn't work in America) Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 11:36
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