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Jade Star posted:I've never played Gungeon, and I'm terrible at Necrodancer, but I don't think that's a fair question. That's like asking if madden 20xx is a better sports game than fifa 20xx. They're both sports games, but that's where the similarities stop. Necrodancer is all about rhythm. It's on a grid and all you do is move up down left or right. There's a couple items for gear or bombs etc and that's about it. Just from the first video Gungeon looks more like a Binding of Issac style. You freely move in any direction, you aim 360 degrees with the mouse, you've got a major inventory investment in a plethora of guns and (i presume) passive items and bonuses. So they're both rouge-ish, but how they go about it is wildly different from each other. That's fair to say, I always played CotN with the non-rhythm character because I have no rhythm, so it was just an arcade-y rougelite to me. I forget that the movement and experience of the game is so fundamentally different for 99% of the other people who played it
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Dec 19, 2016 21:18
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Gungeon is charming. I like the concept and I like the art and sound and music. The problem is the gameplay scales in a tedious way. It has many problems that aren't insurmountable, but the main problem is this: enemy HP in Gungeon scales the deeper you go. Not only do new (tougher) enemies show up, but enemies from previous floors gain HP depending on what floor you're on. This, combined with inherent weapon inaccuracy and limited ammo, means that every weapon gets less effective the further down you go. Isaac can have bad runs, where you just don't get anything good or interesting, but has very powerful individual items - Brimstone is a good example of an item that essentially guarantees a normal victory. Gungeon just doesn't scale anywhere near as strongly. Guns can offer powerful and useful upgrades, but the ammo limitation means they're ultimately temporary and permanent passive upgrades range from almost completely pointlessly ineffective (Ammolets) to barely noticable (damage upgrades), with a handful of "good" upgrades that are by no means common or reliable. The hallmark of a "bad" run in Isaac is one where you get no damage upgrades, but this describes almost every run in Gungeon - and it's exacerbated by the enemy HP scaling, because your damage effectively gets worse from what you start with, not better. Even getting a damage upgrade or two only mitigates the problem.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:02
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Olesh posted:Gungeon is charming. I like the concept and I like the art and sound and music. The problem is the gameplay scales in a tedious way. It sounds like you need to git gud
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Dec 20, 2016 00:45
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On the other hand, a lot of Isaac runs can live or die based on what items you get - yeah, you can get Brimstone and get access to a 'gently caress you, I win' button, but you can also get Cursed Eye (usually by mistake) and have your run degenerate into an unwinnable shitshow. Or you can just never get anything good and be stuck with mediocre stats that result in a frustrating run where everything takes forever and a day to die. Don't get me wrong, i love Isaac, but it can be a game where skill plays second fiddle to luck just because the RNG wasn't feeling cooperative.
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Dec 20, 2016 01:44
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gently caress it, watched the video and bought the game. Let's see how bad I am at this.
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Dec 20, 2016 01:55
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Yeah, besides from one Ammolet type, the chances of getting enough blanks to make Ammolet useful at all is... really low.
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Dec 20, 2016 08:21
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I've said it before but ill go a bit more in depth: There arent any ways to game the system as you can do in other roguelikes/lites. The RNG is the only determinant in what you get and you cant influence which of the (very large) drop pools you get much like you can in isaac. You are guaranteed a shop (with very variable inventory and no private item pool), two chests, and nothing else. A flawless run is rewarded with only extra health, but not a chance at better items. Secret rooms dont follow solid rules and usually arent worth the already uncommon and highly valuable resource, a blank, required. What im saying is every roguelite by design should have ways to circumvent RNG, and gungeon has no such methods baked in.
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Dec 20, 2016 11:43
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Samovar posted:Yeah, besides from one Ammolet type, the chances of getting enough blanks to make Ammolet useful at all is... really low.
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Dec 20, 2016 12:37
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Did my first attempt last night. I was lucky enough to land a Charge Shot (which is almost overpowered for the first floor and shoots a giant plasma bolt that goes through enemies and bounces off walls so it clears out most of a room) in the very first chest I opened and only took two hits during the entire floor, both against the boss. Then on the second floor I died within a few rooms. It's a testament to Scruffy's ability to do as well as he does. I can't wrap my brain around simultaneously making hits and dodging bullets.
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Dec 20, 2016 14:36
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chitoryu12 posted:Did my first attempt last night. I was lucky enough to land a Charge Shot (which is almost overpowered for the first floor and shoots a giant plasma bolt that goes through enemies and bounces off walls so it clears out most of a room) in the very first chest I opened and only took two hits during the entire floor, both against the boss. I'm interested to hear how you make out continuing onwards. What killed you on the second floor? I'm assuming you entered with two full hearts. Rigged Death Trap posted:I've said it before but ill go a bit more in depth: I feel like that's a pretty fair commentary. I can't think of too many things that allow you to get around RNG in this game. You usually have a pretty good idea of what you'll get out of a chest quality-wise, but there's only so many chests you can get. A lot of this game revolves around...well, git gud or die, for lack of better phrasing. The only reward for playing well is either more casings for clearing rooms or more health in the case of bosses. It's entirely up to skill or muscle memory or reaction time as to whether or not you can make it to lower floors.
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Dec 20, 2016 14:52
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dscruffy1 posted:I'm interested to hear how you make out continuing onwards. What killed you on the second floor? I'm assuming you entered with two full hearts. I took a few hits, but the final blow was the first Lead Maiden. I rushed into the room and was too close to dodge roll when it opened up.
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Dec 20, 2016 15:19
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dscruffy1 posted:I feel like that's a pretty fair commentary. I can't think of too many things that allow you to get around RNG in this game. You usually have a pretty good idea of what you'll get out of a chest quality-wise, but there's only so many chests you can get. A lot of this game revolves around...well, git gud or die, for lack of better phrasing. The only reward for playing well is either more casings for clearing rooms or more health in the case of bosses. It's entirely up to skill or muscle memory or reaction time as to whether or not you can make it to lower floors. I feel like this, especially the last part, is exactly WHY there isn't as much (or any) way to game the RNG as there is in usual roguelikes (or roguelites) - because it's possible through dint of skill to avoid all damage, full stop. That being the case, there's a lot less need to obviate RNG fuckery. (Practically speaking most players would probably appreciate it, of course, but for a game whose central mechanic is subject to mastery in the way that 'dodge bullets and shoot stuff' is, I can't really fault it for NOT doing that.) Without having played the game it seems like a nice compromise would be to have the muncher in every shop, no exceptions, so that if you don't like the random crap you got, you can at least trade it in for something else.
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Dec 20, 2016 15:59
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vdate posted:Without having played the game it seems like a nice compromise would be to have the muncher in every shop, no exceptions, so that if you don't like the random crap you got, you can at least trade it in for something else. Except that would make the muncher a newbie trap. Each time you use it, you decrease your maximum ammo pool. So by trying to get better equipment (even only a few times), you can make your run unwinnable. - Without having played the game myself.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:29
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dscruffy1 posted:I'm interested to hear how you make out continuing onwards. What killed you on the second floor? I'm assuming you entered with two full hearts. I don't know, there's some really good stuff out of brown chests, and really bad stuff out of higher ones. So it's not really internally consistent regarding the actual relative power of items in chests. I haven't played in a while but there was a bunch of stuff that was just not any good despite being out of the higher chest levels. Also for real what killed my interest in playing was the aforementioned enemy sponge factor. It wants to be a quick high intensity game but it counters it with spongey as gently caress stuff, and half the time i just get boss fatigue while fighting them and get careless. They could slash the spongey stuff's health by half and the game would just get better. JEBOman posted:Except that would make the muncher a newbie trap. Each time you use it, you decrease your maximum ammo pool. So by trying to get better equipment (even only a few times), you can make your run unwinnable. Ammo boxes can be extremely rare so munching your empty guns up can be one of the few sources of ammo you get (even if it is in a brand new gun)
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Dec 20, 2016 16:52
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Sloober posted:
Yeah, there are some guns that are so useless it's almost better to munch them.
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Dec 20, 2016 16:55
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Most of the Supply Drop update has just entered public beta. No idea how stable things are, though.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:23
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JEBOman posted:Except that would make the muncher a newbie trap. Each time you use it, you decrease your maximum ammo pool. So by trying to get better equipment (even only a few times), you can make your run unwinnable. I hadn't really considered this, and it's a fair point. Sloober posted:I don't know, there's some really good stuff out of brown chests, and really bad stuff out of higher ones. So it's not really internally consistent regarding the actual relative power of items in chests. I haven't played in a while but there was a bunch of stuff that was just not any good despite being out of the higher chest levels. Also for real what killed my interest in playing was the aforementioned enemy sponge factor. It wants to be a quick high intensity game but it counters it with spongey as gently caress stuff, and half the time i just get boss fatigue while fighting them and get careless. They could slash the spongey stuff's health by half and the game would just get better. I can agree that bullet-spongey bosses are just a pain. Once you've got them down it just becomes tedious, and boss fatigue is kind of a lame way to force people to master the thing. dscruffy made most of them look not over-long, but I guess he also had some boss-killers and also is real good at the game.
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Dec 20, 2016 19:08
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if you folks don't like the damage-sponginess, definitely don't play Gungeon co-op. They balance the strength of having two characters by increasing the enemies' health by 40%, but they don't increase your ammo reserves to compensate. Imagine Scruffy's ammo pool at the end of the game, except 40% lower, and maybe without his 100-shot grunt-clearing supermagnum. Turned me right off the game, potentially more than is fair given it's a silly side-mode.
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Dec 20, 2016 19:44
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vdate posted:I can agree that bullet-spongey bosses are just a pain. Once you've got them down it just becomes tedious, and boss fatigue is kind of a lame way to force people to master the thing. dscruffy made most of them look not over-long, but I guess he also had some boss-killers and also is real good at the game. The Dragun's second form is probably the best example of this. The pattern is random but simple, and there's zero threat besides simply zoning out. Once you reach the second form, the Dragun is basically already dead; the only question is how many cycles do you have to go through before killing it. It's a completely fair boss, though, as every single one of its bullet patterns has a tell and is avoidable without any upgrades. I really wanted to enjoy the game more than I did, but after beating all the content I just didn't want to keep playing it. There's a certain element of "git gud" to the game that's rewarding - avoiding damage by skill always feels pretty good, but frankly speaking there are too many things in the game (mostly certain bosses) where you can take unavoidable damage (one complaint about Afterbirth), and the game would be more fun if player damage values just went up across the board and/or enemy HP values didn't scale. The fact that a particular gundead takes 20 bullets by endgame instead of 10 doesn't make things any more threatening or make me significantly more likely to get hit - just makes things more of a slog and boring. Not to keep comparing it to Isaac, but a run of Isaac - win or lose - is a lot quicker overall, and if you want to scum powerups on the first floor in Isaac it takes almost no time at all to start the run with a favorable powerup. Gungeon doesn't have that.
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Dec 20, 2016 21:03
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vdate posted:I feel like this, especially the last part, is exactly WHY there isn't as much (or any) way to game the RNG as there is in usual roguelikes (or roguelites) - because it's possible through dint of skill to avoid all damage, full stop. That being the case, there's a lot less need to obviate RNG fuckery. (Practically speaking most players would probably appreciate it, of course, but for a game whose central mechanic is subject to mastery in the way that 'dodge bullets and shoot stuff' is, I can't really fault it for NOT doing that.) Which is also true of isaac, but since the game scales up health and number of enemies alongside attack pattern difficulty, it should stand to reason you are also scaling up by similar amounts. Any roguelite where you arent expected to be able to complete with a starting loadout, or that a no item is an unbearable slog by any measure, should have RNG manipilation.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:22
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There are some rooms in Isaac that are all but guaranteed to hurt you unless you meet a very specific requirement. I've only played 25 hours in the Gungeon, but I feel like there isn't "unavoidable" damage in the same way. Anyway. I like this LP, Scruffy! I learned a lot of stuff only from your first video, like the "don't pick up keys before the store" advice and ranking chests. Looking forward to seeing more!
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Dec 21, 2016 13:06
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This video took a lot longer to edit than I expected and I apologize. Had a bit of technical fuckery and other issues and lack of free time. But here it is! The Marine/Polsy
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Dec 22, 2016 15:40
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Ok,the whole "even losing armor fucks up your boss flawless" thing is a load of bullshit. One thing I can give Issac in its favor over this is,last time I checked,Soul/Spirit Hearts don't count towards that unless you health consists entirely of them. Kindof a safety net.
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Dec 22, 2016 16:03
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Potion of lead skin blocks fall damage if I remember right, like you still get respawned, you just don't take damage. But yeah there's not much that can replace double vision, pretty much the best item imo. Also using cheat engine to get like 50 stacks of pop pop is something that has to be experienced at least once, there's some weapons that just crash the game with that many 
Nalesh fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 16:17
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Nalesh posted:Potion of lead skin blocks fall damage if I remember right, like you still get respawned, you just don't take damage. But yeah there's not much that can replace double vision, pretty much the best item imo. There's one active item I think is top of the list, and you can get it from a brown chest, but we'll discuss it when it comes up
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Dec 22, 2016 16:22
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Unless it only happened to me for some reason there is some really noticeable chugging towards the 45 minute point of the video and intermediately onwards. But it seemed to sort itself out after that unfortunate skype call.
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Dec 22, 2016 18:34
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Cooked Auto posted:Unless it only happened to me for some reason there is some really noticeable chugging towards the 45 minute point of the video and intermediately onwards. That's the technical difficulties I thought I encountered. For me it was on the Windows Media Player end but I thought maybe it was just my computer chugging along. I guess it's only about three minutes but maybe it's acceptable. I still feel bad for it.
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Dec 22, 2016 18:41
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VolticSurge posted:Ok,the whole "even losing armor fucks up your boss flawless" thing is a load of bullshit. One thing I can give Issac in its favor over this is,last time I checked,Soul/Spirit Hearts don't count towards that unless you health consists entirely of them. Kindof a safety net.
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Dec 22, 2016 18:53
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A lock. Named Flint. Flint Lock. I know I should be expecting everything in the entire
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Dec 22, 2016 18:58
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Felinoid posted:A lock. Named Flint. Flint Lock. I know I should be expecting everything in the entire loving hell I didn't get it until just now.
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Dec 22, 2016 19:47
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In the little area with blocks floating in space where you end up after beating the final boss, can you die by falling off the platforms before grabbing the Gun?
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Dec 22, 2016 20:38
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Well, now you encountered the last 'unfair' boss - the Cannonballrog. Not because of the phase out move, that's actually easily dealt with by staying in the middle of the room. No, his move that sends bullets out in a random pattern can be triggered immediately. Since you start at either the top of the bottom of his boss room, it's a complete dice roll if you'll eat a bullet or not. Also, I think the bullet-gundead will automatically fire upon any barrel that rolls, it's a good way to direct them away from you. Also, the red mages can only catch a certain number of bullets. You can drown them in lead. You are missing out on a secret, BTW. Next time you get a table in a room with pits, kick it in. You'll get a surprise! You picked up the Soaker to get to the Planar Lead. You don't need it, or indeed any 'trail' weapon to get the path. With any gungoneer (bar the Pilot) can use the casings from their starting guns to find the path; just like Hansel and Gretel. The Courtier of the Lead King can just be kicked. I find that more satisfying. I was also surprised that you didn't show what the Hexagun can do to the Reaper. Finally, you know you can just teleport out of the special item rooms, Scruffy. Samovar fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 21:45
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Lovin' the LP. It's a testament to how much I'll never be able to 100% the game, even with 3 dragun kills under my belt.Samovar posted:You picked up the Soaker to get to the Planar Lead. You don't need it, or indeed any 'trail' weapon to get the path. With any gungoneer (bar the Pilot) can use the casings from their starting guns to find the path; just like Hansel and Gretel. This was the way I solved the puzzle. But I don't think Hansel and Gretel threw bread crumbs over their shoulders to find out where to go As a minor supplementary, I've noticed that the hazmat suit also makes you immune to electrical damage. Not sure what that normally applies to outside of tazies though.
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Dec 23, 2016 00:27
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Loving these playthroughs. You definitely make the game look a hell of a lot easier than it is. My issue is that I don't think I'll ever be good enough to win. In games like BoI, I'm good enough to win the game when I get good items / combo items. I don't need broken combos, but good enough stuff that my DPS and dodging is enough to get me the win. Gungeon just doesn't have that level of potential, and I know that my dodging skills while good, won't be enough to get me there. Combine that with the fact that I have to play level 1-2 over and over again while trying to advance to late game gets really boring.
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Dec 23, 2016 01:24
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Now that I've watched the video: the Helix can actually be a pretty decent boss killer. As long as both bullets hit you have reasonably high damage, and most of the bosses are large enough that they always will despite the helical firing pattern.
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Dec 23, 2016 02:57
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Sessile posted:Lovin' the LP. It's a testament to how much I'll never be able to 100% the game, even with 3 dragun kills under my belt. As a somewhat spoilery note: There's stuff PAST the Dragun. It involves past killing and lots of bullet making.
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Dec 23, 2016 04:43
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pumpinglemma posted:Now that I've watched the video: the Helix can actually be a pretty decent boss killer. As long as both bullets hit you have reasonably high damage, and most of the bosses are large enough that they always will despite the helical firing pattern. That's what it looked like to me too. It's definitely a lovely gun for outside bosses, though. But I don't know the game enough to know if the Helix was better or worse than the other things he had vs Bosses.
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Dec 23, 2016 12:36
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Helix gets hilarious at 3 or 4 pop pop stacks.
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Dec 23, 2016 14:46
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Nalesh posted:Helix gets hilarious at 3 or 4 pop pop stacks. To be fair everything does Even the lowercase L is not bad if it is literally making GBS threads bullets
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Dec 23, 2016 20:46
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Does everyone look different when they have armor on, or only The Marine?
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Dec 24, 2016 01:52
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