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SkyTalon2314
Aug 8, 2013

Dominicius posted:

People are complaining about how the game handles difficulty but it is actually one of the things that I absolutely endorse. What you need to understand about difficulty first and foremost that it is always relative to player skill, a beginner might have trouble with the most basic things while a pro will just breeze through the game. The second thing to keep in mind is that player skill is not static, players will be getting better and better as they play, making the game feel easier with time. By rewarding players that are doing well and giving them more resource what you are doing is amplifying the learning curve effect. Not only is the game easier because the player goes up in skill but the game also gets easier itself in response to that. This creates a much bigger sense of progression, creating a breaking point where the player is suddenly making tons of progress with each run where as before he would barely be making it to the second floor.

The fact that scruffy mentioned a "click"moment in one of his videos is no coincidence, Gungeon was designed for it.

These are good points, but I have some qualms with how this game handles it. I do like the idea of a reward for high-skilled players, much like Devil Deals in BoI, but I don't think they should be health, and is the only real way to gain health outside of very RNG dependent things (ie, chests). The bosses in this game can be brutally painful for newer players, and to tell them, 'The only way to get more health is to not need it'... does the game no favors in the end. Other types of rewards, maybe a second gun or passive/active item would be better. With the knowledge that the only way I can get more HP is to not get hit in bosses, it makes it incredibly demoralizing to get hit by an errant attack during some of the more technical bosses. I've even just flat-out ended a run because I got hit on the first boss because I'm not at the skill level where I can breeze through the second floor, and not having that extra two hits because of a slight miscalculation is crushing.


I've also been having a frustratingly difficult time unlocking the shop in the Breech, because that also feels like a Luck Dependent Mission. I've had a couple runs now where either the key isn't spawning (or doesn't show on the map?), or in my latest rage-quit, found out once I got the Cell Key that they were behind a NORMAL locked door, and I had just used my last key on a decent-quality chest. Not to mention just the numerous runs I don't get to the second floor, but that I can chalk up to player skill. I have a very hard time right now judging how long my invulnerability frames last, and I keep juking myself in a way that I get clipped by overlapping bullets.

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DeliciousCookie
Mar 4, 2011

Dominicius posted:

People are complaining about how the game handles difficulty but it is actually one of the things that I absolutely endorse. What you need to understand about difficulty first and foremost that it is always relative to player skill, a beginner might have trouble with the most basic things while a pro will just breeze through the game. The second thing to keep in mind is that player skill is not static, players will be getting better and better as they play, making the game feel easier with time. By rewarding players that are doing well and giving them more resource what you are doing is amplifying the learning curve effect. Not only is the game easier because the player goes up in skill but the game also gets easier itself in response to that. This creates a much bigger sense of progression, creating a breaking point where the player is suddenly making tons of progress with each run where as before he would barely be making it to the second floor.

The fact that scruffy mentioned a "click"moment in one of his videos is no coincidence, Gungeon was designed for it.

I think the problem is less that the difficulty is high, and more how they make the game 'difficult'. High HP bosses can be difficult due to them lasting longer and having to handle their patterns for longer, but ultimately as you play the game more and more, that becomes less of an issue. As someone else in the thread said, fatigue is a very real thing for this game. Guns feel weak as is unless you get particularly strong ones or a decent passive to synergize with. Having enemies scale HP as well makes them feel even weaker, and bosses with tons of HP doesn't alleviate this either. Honestly, one of the biggest complaints about the game I have is that you don't feel like you get stronger as you go further. At best you stay even, at worst you feel weaker. Its also frankly a bizarre design choice to reward players with more health for avoiding damage entirely on bosses when if they can do that, they likely don't need it. I think the idea is to give you more health for later boss fights you're less experienced with, but as you get better and better with a game the health bonus is a bit inconsequential.

Or is it Sputnik
Aug 22, 2009

Oh, Ho-oh oh oh, oh whoa oh oh oh
I'll get 'em caught, show Oak what I've got

dscruffy1 posted:

The jammed actually give you more casings but that one probably doesn't drop any because it'd be too easily farmable otherwise.
Yeah, I meant that specific jammed since I couldn't remember the name of it (Spent? Discarded?). Sorry for being unclear.

senrath
Nov 4, 2009

Look Professor, a destruct switch!


That one's a jammed Spent.

dscruffy1
Nov 22, 2007

Look out!
Nap Ghost

SkyTalon2314 posted:

With the knowledge that the only way I can get more HP is to not get hit in bosses, it makes it incredibly demoralizing to get hit by an errant attack during some of the more technical bosses. I've even just flat-out ended a run because I got hit on the first boss because I'm not at the skill level where I can breeze through the second floor, and not having that extra two hits because of a slight miscalculation is crushing.

Yo! I got a piece of advice that hopefully this video will serve to illuminate!

Never give up! I was incredibly close to death in this video but managed to come back from the brink. I still have runs where I die on the second floor. But don't just quit on the boss because you got a hit! It sounds like really terrible advice but every time you die or make it to the next floor, that is learning. I still get hit by bosses like all the time, but every time you beat a boss you learn that pattern a little better. Every time you see new enemies, you get to learn that crap. And taking multiple hits because you didn't have enough invincibility frames is INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING and something I deal with in this video!

The Pilot/Polsy

After you've watched the video...

Who's next to kill the past? Vote now! I guess this vote will end in a day or two or WHEN I FEEL LIKE IT!

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Out of curiosity, have you really gotten a full clear on each of your first four games, or is there editing magic and copied savefiles? Also you've gotten a good boss variety in just four runs, are they coded to shuffle or just luck?

dscruffy1
Nov 22, 2007

Look out!
Nap Ghost

Bruceski posted:

Out of curiosity, have you really gotten a full clear on each of your first four games, or is there editing magic and copied savefiles? Also you've gotten a good boss variety in just four runs, are they coded to shuffle or just luck?

I had an issue at the start of the Pilot's first run where the water barrel got stuck on a wall on the first floor, which I didn't think was a thing that could happen. So I restarted that run, and that's why this one was take two. Otherwise I have done no restarts or clever editing! A way to check if I've died is on the page at the end of the video, under the "You Won!" text in the book there's a skull icon. That number goes up as you die! I think my main file is currently at 80 deaths.

I'd say the boss shuffling is luck, each floor has three possible bosses except for the third floor which currently has two. It will get three in the Supply Drop update! There's also a fairly rare spawn that can be the boss on any given floor.

dscruffy1 fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Jan 2, 2017

Nalesh
Jun 9, 2010

What did the grandma say to the frog?

Something racist, probably.
I just wanna say I'm sad that you didn't make the Pilot episode the first episode :v:

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Nalesh posted:

I just wanna say I'm sad that you didn't make the Pilot episode the first episode :v:

Now now, this is gun puns, not TV ones.

Cassa
Jan 29, 2009
Little turtle duder was clutch.

Nalesh
Jun 9, 2010

What did the grandma say to the frog?

Something racist, probably.
An important thing about the bouncy bullets is that it resets the range that a bullet travels before it disappears if it has a limit on range, like for example the pilots gun.

Grapplejack
Nov 27, 2007

This LP is good, but this game is real, real bad. It's kinda like Isaac, but really stingy and rude to the player.

Ignatius M. Meen
May 26, 2011

Hello yes I heard there was a lovely trainwreck here and...

Another pun if you missed it: Pilot's friend is literally a wing man.

Nalesh
Jun 9, 2010

What did the grandma say to the frog?

Something racist, probably.

Grapplejack posted:

This LP is good, but this game is real, real bad. It's kinda like Isaac, but really stingy and rude to the player.

Honestly I found it more fair than isaac, maybe it's because I haven't played the newest version of isaac and the first version was floaty as gently caress.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry
I like your ending equipment screen there. Makes sense, but at the same time I'd still like to see everything you picked up.

Kaboom Dragoon
May 7, 2010

The greatest of feasts

Does anyone else find the second floor bosses easier than the first floor ones? Maybe it's me, or maybe I have better weapons by then. but I tend to find the Beholster or the Gorgun easier than the Twins or the King. Which is weird, because I have way more practice at them, what with them being the first bosses.

Ammoconda can eat a dick though.

Grapplejack posted:

This LP is good, but this game is real, real bad. It's kinda like Isaac, but really stingy and rude to the player.

It could stand to be more generous with pickups and items, there's no denying that, but compared to something like Nuclear Throne, it's a hell of a lot fairer. After a while, it just stopped being fun for how it would never give you a chance.

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015

Kaboom Dragoon posted:

Does anyone else find the second floor bosses easier than the first floor ones? Maybe it's me, or maybe I have better weapons by then. but I tend to find the Beholster or the Gorgun easier than the Twins or the King. Which is weird, because I have way more practice at them, what with them being the first bosses.

Ammoconda can eat a dick though.

Nah, its about having a good gun. If you have a lovely run, where the best gun you get is tshirt cannon, or god-forbid, that laser cube thingy, floor 2 bosses are still hard as gently caress... as opposed to first floor, which I can mostly reliably clear out with basic gun.

pumpinglemma
Apr 28, 2009

DD: Fondly regard abomination.

I think Gorgun is fairly easy to clear damageless with the basic gun. Beholster is a lot harder but still sometimes doable, and Ammoconda is pretty much impossible because you don't have enough damage output to kill the pellets.

marshmallow creep
Dec 10, 2008

I've been sitting here for 5 mins trying to think of a joke to make but I just realised the animators of Mass Effect already did it for me

I think a game about fun and wacky guns forcing you to fall back on your most boring and basic gun kind of misses its own point.

Samovar
Jun 4, 2011

I'm 😤 not a 🦸🏻‍♂️hero...🧜🏻



pumpinglemma posted:

I think Gorgun is fairly easy to clear damageless with the basic gun. Beholster is a lot harder but still sometimes doable, and Ammoconda is pretty much impossible because you don't have enough damage output to kill the pellets.

I'd go as far as saying the Gorgun is the easiest boss in the game, closed closely by the Blobulorn. All her attacks follow a predictable pattern, while the latter has only one random spam which is pretty easy to dodge.

Next run, for usefulness of special item drop, should be Convict. Especially since you can sell it to the Store Creep and lose nothing.

Felinoid
Mar 8, 2009

Marginally better than Shepard's dancing. 2/10

Samovar posted:

Next run, for usefulness of special item drop, should be Convict. Especially since you can sell it to the Store Creep and lose nothing.

Frankly I'm just captured by the immediate mystery of the Convict. What is in that photo that enrages her so? I must know!

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015

pumpinglemma posted:

I think Gorgun is fairly easy to clear damageless with the basic gun. Beholster is a lot harder but still sometimes doable, and Ammoconda is pretty much impossible because you don't have enough damage output to kill the pellets.

I admit I faced gorgun only once so far, and that was before I had any idea what she can do, so my strategy of keeping back to have time to react backfired. Also I got caught in the scream thing. :v:

Vorpal Cat
Mar 19, 2009

Oh god what did I just post?
The easiest boss in the game for me is Gattlingull when you get the room with the 4 pillars. You can kite him around and get pot shots in where he stops to reload. Then unload on him when he starts firing missles.

Easiest in general is probably the Bullet king. Everything he does is easy to dodge except the delayed bullet blast he throws, so you can just save you blanks for that one move.

Gorgun always feels like it should be the easiest, but I don't know her paterns as well so I always take stupid hit I shouldn't.

Robert Deadford
Mar 1, 2008
Ultra Carp
Thanks for the LP. I was tempted by this game a long time ago, being a big BoI fan. Two runs, two deaths on floor two. But I think I'll master it eventually!

Unlike Nuclear Throne. I want to love Nuclear throne, but I can't.

rchandra
Apr 30, 2013


I was wondering if you could just cheat everything with the Shield/Turtle combo until you showed you can't hide under the shield forever.

Any reason not to be using those munchers? Seemed like you have more guns than you need by then.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

rchandra posted:

I was wondering if you could just cheat everything with the Shield/Turtle combo until you showed you can't hide under the shield forever.

Any reason not to be using those munchers? Seemed like you have more guns than you need by then.

"might need it later" worries. Ammo wasn't a concern in this run, he kept finding more right as his standby guns ran out, but remember in the first run he was down to the dregs against the High Dragun. The muncher trades two guns worth of ammo for one and it may not even be good. I don't think it's useful unless you're stuck with REALLY bad guns or are desperate for more ammunition.

Sjs00
Jun 29, 2013

Yeah Baby Yeah !
Oh yeah the muncher is an incredible gamble. Not worth it at all I think.

senrath
Nov 4, 2009

Look Professor, a destruct switch!


Munchers are emergency use only, yeah. They're not worth it unless you have no other option.

Kemix
Dec 1, 2013

Because change

senrath posted:

Munchers are emergency use only, yeah. They're not worth it unless you have no other option.

Or have a bunch of empty guns that you have since replaced. As scruffy has said, there ARE bottom of the barrel guns that you can always tend to get rid of when you already have better guns. Granted, that's when a particular run is VERY assholish when RNGesus tells you to go gently caress yourself and gives you a bunch of T-Shirt Cannons and Garbage Guns. Also i feel Isaac is a BIT fairer when it comes to things, since for one, you don't have the worry of "ammo" to deal with and two, there's a LOT of items that can really make a run worthwhile. *coughbrimstonecough*

Vorpal Cat
Mar 19, 2009

Oh god what did I just post?
Their are a few muncher recipes that can guarantee a certain drops, but almost none of them are worth it. Like you can take any crossbow and any magic weapon, like the hexagun, and the muncher will give you a magical crecent crossbow. But your probably better off with any of the other magic guns instead.

The one amusing one is feeding an rpg and a Beehive gets you the Stinger.

EricFate
Aug 31, 2001

Crumpets. Glorious Crumpets.

Felinoid posted:

Frankly I'm just captured by the immediate mystery of the Convict. What is in that photo that enrages her so? I must know!

I expect it to be a picture of the dog from Duck Hunt, laughing because you missed all the targets.

KazigluBey
Oct 30, 2011

boner

A good example of Isaac being fairer is that the first floor's guaranteed item doesn't require a key.

I mean gently caress, I played this game for a bit and continuous deaths across the first two floors just ended any desire to continue. Stuff like "Never spends keys on Brown Chests" or "Don't spend keys on a floor until you make it to the shop" (or what was the formulation? keys don't spawn at the shop if you open a chest?) seem like really counter intuitive things too, as correct as they turn out to be; I want to pop chests as soon as I find them to help myself progress, in Isaac or whatever if I come across a shot for a new permanent item you drat well can be sure I'm going to grab it ASAP.

Having said all that watching someone just demolish the game is providing me with a lot of enjoyment.

GeneralYeti
Jul 22, 2012

Look at this smug broken asshole.

KazigluBey posted:

I mean gently caress, I played this game for a bit and continuous deaths across the first two floors just ended any desire to continue. Stuff like "Never spends keys on Brown Chests" or "Don't spend keys on a floor until you make it to the shop" (or what was the formulation? keys don't spawn at the shop if you open a chest?) seem like really counter intuitive things too, as correct as they turn out to be; I want to pop chests as soon as I find them to help myself progress, in Isaac or whatever if I come across a shot for a new permanent item you drat well can be sure I'm going to grab it ASAP.

Don't pick up keys until you've reached the shop. Even if one spawns, as long as you don't pick it up the shop is guaranteed to have a key for sale. Opening chests isn't a problem.

Ignatius M. Meen
May 26, 2011

Hello yes I heard there was a lovely trainwreck here and...

KazigluBey posted:

A good example of Isaac being fairer is that the first floor's guaranteed item doesn't require a key.

I mean gently caress, I played this game for a bit and continuous deaths across the first two floors just ended any desire to continue. Stuff like "Never spends keys on Brown Chests" or "Don't spend keys on a floor until you make it to the shop" (or what was the formulation? keys don't spawn at the shop if you open a chest?) seem like really counter intuitive things too, as correct as they turn out to be; I want to pop chests as soon as I find them to help myself progress, in Isaac or whatever if I come across a shot for a new permanent item you drat well can be sure I'm going to grab it ASAP.

Having said all that watching someone just demolish the game is providing me with a lot of enjoyment.

You can spend the keys on non-brown chests, you just can't pick any up until you hit the shop; still unintuitive, but not directly gimping. Really what's weird to me is that keys aren't considered precious drops that R.R. would steal like the ammo boxes, there may be relatively bad guns but if they're better than the sidearm in any way besides marking secret walls that's still another ammo pool so I'd have thought either both would be precious or neither of them would be.

KazigluBey
Oct 30, 2011

boner

Right, that's still uber weird to me. I see a key, I've got a chest ahead, but I should put it off until I hit the shop; oh and if it's brown just pass up on it altogether. idk

I mean sometimes I wonder how people figure this stuff out in the first place but then I always take what I view to be the direct and obvious path :shrug:

PotatoManJack
Nov 9, 2009
If there's voting going on for the next run, I'm going with The convict as well. I imagine they will have a very interesting past that needs killing.

pumpinglemma
Apr 28, 2009

DD: Fondly regard abomination.

The chests pretty obviously get more ornate as they go from brown to blue to green to red to black - it's really not a stretch to think that the different colours contain different quality items, especially once you've opened a few low-tier chests and a few high-tier chests. And I think people make the key thing out to be a bigger deal than it is - I only realised it after seeing scruffy's videos, and I could still beat the Dragun on a reasonable proportion of my runs. One or maybe two extra keys in the shop over the course of a run isn't normally a dealbreaker.

(There's also at least one pretty badass weapon that only appears in brown chests - it's not all T-shirt cannons.)

Gideon020
Apr 23, 2011
There is a gun that can open chests, even when the lockpicks fail. I remember getting it, very handy.

CzarChasm
Mar 14, 2009

I don't like it when you're watching me eat.
Disappointed that the boss' name is "Gorgun" and not "Meduzi"

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berryjon
May 30, 2011

I have an invasion to go to.
I got to admit, I loved how Scruffy's opinion of the Pox' changed over the video. At first he was dismissive of it, with nothing better to use, but by the end, he was practically swearing by it. ;)

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