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Gungeon is charming. I like the concept and I like the art and sound and music. The problem is the gameplay scales in a tedious way. It has many problems that aren't insurmountable, but the main problem is this: enemy HP in Gungeon scales the deeper you go. Not only do new (tougher) enemies show up, but enemies from previous floors gain HP depending on what floor you're on. This, combined with inherent weapon inaccuracy and limited ammo, means that every weapon gets less effective the further down you go. Isaac can have bad runs, where you just don't get anything good or interesting, but has very powerful individual items - Brimstone is a good example of an item that essentially guarantees a normal victory. Gungeon just doesn't scale anywhere near as strongly. Guns can offer powerful and useful upgrades, but the ammo limitation means they're ultimately temporary and permanent passive upgrades range from almost completely pointlessly ineffective (Ammolets) to barely noticable (damage upgrades), with a handful of "good" upgrades that are by no means common or reliable. The hallmark of a "bad" run in Isaac is one where you get no damage upgrades, but this describes almost every run in Gungeon - and it's exacerbated by the enemy HP scaling, because your damage effectively gets worse from what you start with, not better. Even getting a damage upgrade or two only mitigates the problem.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:02
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| # ¿ Apr 28, 2024 21:06 |
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vdate posted:I can agree that bullet-spongey bosses are just a pain. Once you've got them down it just becomes tedious, and boss fatigue is kind of a lame way to force people to master the thing. dscruffy made most of them look not over-long, but I guess he also had some boss-killers and also is real good at the game. The Dragun's second form is probably the best example of this. The pattern is random but simple, and there's zero threat besides simply zoning out. Once you reach the second form, the Dragun is basically already dead; the only question is how many cycles do you have to go through before killing it. It's a completely fair boss, though, as every single one of its bullet patterns has a tell and is avoidable without any upgrades. I really wanted to enjoy the game more than I did, but after beating all the content I just didn't want to keep playing it. There's a certain element of "git gud" to the game that's rewarding - avoiding damage by skill always feels pretty good, but frankly speaking there are too many things in the game (mostly certain bosses) where you can take unavoidable damage (one complaint about Afterbirth), and the game would be more fun if player damage values just went up across the board and/or enemy HP values didn't scale. The fact that a particular gundead takes 20 bullets by endgame instead of 10 doesn't make things any more threatening or make me significantly more likely to get hit - just makes things more of a slog and boring. Not to keep comparing it to Isaac, but a run of Isaac - win or lose - is a lot quicker overall, and if you want to scum powerups on the first floor in Isaac it takes almost no time at all to start the run with a favorable powerup. Gungeon doesn't have that.
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Dec 20, 2016 21:03
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Binding of Isaac is a faster game with a slower game loop. The basic game loop - shoot enemies, dodge bullets - is faster paced in Gungeon. Enemies shoot faster, fire more bullets, your bullets travel faster, and you have an invincible dodge roll you're expected to use and use well in order to avoid damage. However, outside that basic game loop, Binding of Isaac is a faster game in every way. Individual rooms take only seconds to traverse, meaning that even the longest amount of backtracking through the entire floor doesn't take very long in practice. While Gungeon has small rooms, the majority of rooms tend to be on the larger side, including multiple waves of enemies that sometimes spawn partway through the previous wave. Isaac is far more prolific with pickups, and guarantees you at least two upgrades every floor (The Item Room and the Boss Reward), while only requiring a single key tax per floor past the first floor to access them. In Isaac, if you've taken all your guaranteed upgrade opportunities, you'll have 12 items and have spent 5 keys by the time you reach the original boss of the game (which is frequently done in less than twenty minutes. Could you imagine reaching the Dragun in 20 minutes on a regular basis? No, you probably can not). In Isaac, I could play a couple full rounds of Isaac back to back and completed in an hour, or have a run of lovely games and probably get an "easy" run where I stumble into a very powerful item that lets me steamroll the rest of the game. In Gungeon, from start to killing the Dragun is about an hour on average, longer if I don't get much in the way of useful upgrades (or possibly much shorter, if I die due to not getting useful upgrades). I like Enter the Gungeon. I like it enough that I played it to the point where, six months plus of not playing it later, I could sit down and still start the game and kill the Dragun in one shot without anything special in terms of item drops. But the game could have been tuned and tweaked to be far more fun and more accessible to newer players.
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Jan 4, 2017 22:02
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Trick Question posted:Alright, I hate to admit it, but after playing a bit longer I actually like this game and think it's good. Maybe the drop rate has been adjusted upward from when it first launched? And I think the beta content helps. So, when you clear a room, there is a percentage chance for a reward. This reward chance starts equal to 1% + Coolness - Curse, and goes up every time you clear a room without getting a reward, and resets back down to the minimum every time you get your reward. You can get pretty much any pickup this way - health, ammo, a key, extra casings, even hegemony credits. There is a second percentage chance for a reward after every room, however, that is a chance for an ammo drop, independent of the first reward. It's possible to get a normal reward and an ammo drop from a single room, or even two ammo drops from the same room. However, on release, the game checked the player's currently equipped weapon when the room was cleared - if the player was equipped with a weapon that had infinite ammo, the special ammo-only reward chance was set to 0%, meaning that if the player had their starter weapon equipped when the last enemy in the room died, they would never even get the chance at a secondary roll for ammo. This behavior is no longer in the game, and is the single most important change since release, as it means you aren't punished for switching to your starter pistol to finish rooms off and save ammo.
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Jan 23, 2017 21:35
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sheep-dodger posted:Antibodies are overpriced garbage scruffy says as he pays 90 casings and proceeds to get 6 half hearts from them that would be worth 180 casings if bought in a shop. Except he ended the run with 12 HP, meaning the Antibody had no real effect except for the feeling of security provided by having more health than you need. Had he skipped it entirely, nothing would have changed except that he would have had 90 more casings with which to spend on other, more useful items.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:41
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discworld is all I read posted:I've found what really helps with Gatling Gull is being able to tell the difference between his two bullet sprays. If he does push forward while doing his spray then it's fairly easy to remain stationary as well and just weave through the bullet pattern, and in reality I think only maybe a couple of the bullets will be heading directly toward you. If he does decide to start walking forward while shooting then he'll start to fire out more bullets in a more varied pattern. The best idea with that is to not try to outrun the spread because he'll try to predict ahead of time where you'll head and he'll start to send bullets ahead of you which will box you in. Instead try to not make him turn so much and just try to dodge the bullets outside of the cone he initially sends out. Gatling Gull isn't really predictive; he shoots a spread back and forth in a limited fixed arc and then if you get outside that arc he turns to shoot in the arc that you're in. It's very similar to how Gun Nuts work, but because he doesn't just fire a single wide spread of bullets (and instead shoots a random-looking back and forth spray across the arc continuously) it can look like he's leading you when in reality he's just spraying back and forth and turning to follow you. If he's shooting on the "left" side of his arc, and then you move around him clockwise, he'll continue his sweep from whatever side he was on so it looks like he suddenly turns 45 degrees and aims at you and then starts leading you, because the "left" side of his arc suddenly changed and now he's probably sweeping to the "right".
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Feb 4, 2017 03:50
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I finally finished unlocking the last shortcut last night. Boss Rush is Cool And Good and the lack of a DPS cap is simultaneously hilarious, cathartic, and depressing. A single moderate-to-good weapon early makes a much bigger difference, and seeing boss kill times cut down from ~30 seconds to around 10 or 12 just highlights how severely the DPS cap cuts the damage on "good" weapons in normal runs. I got all five master rounds on my first boss rush (or would have, if Boss Rush didn't immediately end after the Dragun and prevent you from picking up the 5th round). Edit: The Oubliette is almost always worth doing by the time you can reliably get down to Floor 4-5. The Oubliette isn't significantly harder than the first floor If no keys drop in the first floor and you don't go to the Oubliette, you have the option of two keys on the second floor (which could be spent on first floor chests), but you'll have a floor less income and one fewer boss drop. If no keys drop in either the first floor or the oubliette and you buy one key per shop, you get two boss drops and either one key going into floor two or the option of a chest in the Oubliette. You still have two floors worth of income (minus 45 casings for two keys) and are in a better position to accomplish whatever your goal is on the run. Olesh fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 00:11
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Haven't unlocked the Makeshift Cannon, but from the Wiki it looks like it would probably one-shot a boss. Does anyone in this thread actually have it unlocked? I've played this game to the point that I've unlocked everything besides the last few hunting quest guns and am still only part way through the one that requires me to kill 30 Shelletons. Did people actually grind out that quest using the shortcuts or just use a cheat engine or something? As tedious as the hunting quests are to intentionally unlock, I find them less egregious than the elevator because you don't do anything special for the hunting quests. You just kill monsters, and you'll eventually come across the things the hunting quest wants for you to kill. You can use the shortcut to speed it up if you know what floor certain enemies appear on, but really, unless you're desperately trying to 100% the game as fast as possible, think of the hunting quests as less of a specific goal and more of "a thing unlocks after you play enough".
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Feb 8, 2017 00:05
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Ignatius M. Meen posted:I am getting better at the game; I only took one stupid hit from Gatling Gull earlier in his library arena when I assumed he was not jumping on top of me but would have easily gotten the Master Round otherwise, corner shooting is so good when you can do it. Later that run I took plenty of hits from Gorgun but the Jolter was still quite effective. I rescued Cursula who showed up on the third floor immediately and I bought Wax Wings and the Shotgun Full of Love from her. The only reason I didn't make it to the boss was a stupid Gunzookie bullet, I had a bunch of pretty nice guns. Double Vision straight doubles the number of outgoing shots. I find it's always more effective than Gun Friendship. Plus, when combined with the Ice Cube, you can generally keep Double Vision going forever on a boss.
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Feb 10, 2017 05:26
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Spice has four different possible effects, depending on which dose you're taking, but while the first three times you take Spice it increases the likelihood of Spice replacing a random item, it doesn't continue to go up past that and the fourth and subsequent uses of Spice all do the same thing (-1 Max HP, +15% damage, +10% Shot Spread, and +1 curse). The first three uses, in contrast, are much more beneficial. 1 Spice: +20% move speed, -25% shot spread, 0.5 curse, +1 Max HP 2 Spice: -10% Enemy Bullet Speed, +20% firing speed, 1 curse, +1 Max HP 3 Spice: +20% Damage, -5% Enemy Bullet Speed, 1 curse, -1 Max HP Spice is extremely powerful, but 2-3 Spice is definitely the "sweet spot". While pumping your damage up 15% per heart container may seem like an okay trade off to start, it's counterbalanced by an increase in Jammed enemies. discworld is all I read posted:Also it's kind of a bummer that after defeating the Lich and maybe using the evil gun muncher, there's never much of a reason to go back to Bullet Hell. It doesn't seem to have the same 'do X number of times' achievement to unlock something and it's mostly just a slog. You could say the same thing about the individual Gungeoneer's Pasts, though. While Bullet Hell and the Lich are extremely intimidating the first few times you get down there, generally speaking, if I've got a reliable and efficient room clearer like the Mega Hand or its big sister, Bullet Hell is generally worth the attempt as a kind of victory lap. If I'm short on ammo and I think I'd be reduced to relying on bad guns or my starter pistol just to clear rooms, I'll do the Past instead. Sure, you don't "get" anything out of doing it after the first time, but it's fun so long as the floor isn't a slog in the process. And it's not like you lose anything by dying.
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Feb 13, 2017 02:48
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NHO posted:Hm. Can Lich be jammed? Yes, although it might be a separate chance for each form - when I experienced it, I had a normal first form and a Jammed second form. I, uh, didn't survive to the third form - it was only my second time ever reaching the Lich - so I have no idea whether the third form was Jammed or not.
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Feb 13, 2017 14:16
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Grapplejack posted:God the shortcuts aren't even good and unlocking the robot is already difficult, why The shortcuts are handy for speeding up some of the hunt quests - bullet sharks, for example, don't appear on the first floor, so you can grind them out faster by skipping directly to the Gungeon Proper and working from there. Also the reward for unlocking all the shortcuts is cool and good even if the shortcut quest is terrible.
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Apr 20, 2017 18:34
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Lord of the Jammed doesn't deal contact damage, it's just the occasional wave of bullets you have to worry about. You can also buy stuff from a shopkeeper if you're fast enough and purchase the item before he enters the room, they hide and take down all their items as soon as he shows up rather than when he fires a wave at you. Spending another 40 at the shrine probably would have been your best bet since all the stores are basically unusable once LotJ shows up. I'll pretty much always blow all of my money on the Y.V. shrine whenever it shows. Because the chance scales linearly, spending 60 casings on three uses of the shrine means you now have a 11.1% chance for Pop to trigger - a hair over 1 in 9 shots in average. Getting a fourth use out of it (at a total cost of 100 casings) brings the chance to 14.8%, which is a bit over 1 in 7 shots. Sadly, it would cost 3780 casings to use the shrine enough to get guaranteed Pop on every shot.
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May 22, 2017 00:15
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betamax hipster posted:Since Pop can trigger off Popped shots, wouldn't a guaranteed trigger mean firing once causes an unending stream of bullets? Given that you'd have to be cheating in the first place to acquire the casings, I'm not sure that's really out of line. Can Pop really trigger off of its own shots? I've never seen that.
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May 22, 2017 01:11
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| # ¿ Apr 28, 2024 21:06 |
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dscruffy1 posted:Coolness and curse both affect your chances of drops in opposite ways. Curse will lower your chance to get drops after clearing a room, coolness raises it. There is a special item that will give you coolness scaling with the amount of curse you have but once you get to 13-14 curse like I had in that run you're going to have a bad time. Unless you've got a really good way of killing jammed enemies, and I didn't. Your ability to modify your coolness and curse are also limited. It's not like you can simply decide "oh hey I want to get ALL THE CURSE" on any given run, aside from the shrine at the beginning that starts you with 9 curse. There simply might not be any sources of curse at all. Same thing with coolness. Both coolness and curse also have a soft cap of sorts at 10 points, where certain effects cap out and other effects continue to increase. For coolness, the soft cap is that active items can only have their cooldowns reduced to 50%. At 10 Curse, there is a 50% chance of any enemy or boss becoming Jammed, and this no longer increases with higher curse levels. The scaling for enemies/bosses becoming jammed isn't quite linear, as the chance for bosses to be Jammed is 0% for 0-6 curse, 20 for 7-8 curse, 30% at 9 curse, and then jumps straight to 50% at 10 curse. For regular enemies, it starts at 1% with 1-2 curse, 2% at 3-4 curse, 5% at 5-6 curse, 10% at 7 curse, and then 25% at 9 curse and 50% at 10 curse. The other effects scale linearly with curse, and these are the following, per point of curse: - 2.1% increased chance of a chest becoming a Mimic - +5% chance of a chest having a fuse - -1% chance of a room reward - +5% chance of an ammo reward (this is calculated separately and differently than the normal room reward - it's possible, though rare, to get an ammo drop as a "room reward" and get the ammo reward in order to get two ammo drops from clearing one room). - - This doesn't mean at 10 curse you have a 50% chance of getting ammo from every room - rather, the base chance of a bonus ammo reward goes up by 50%, so you see 50% more ammo boxes. The Lord of the Jammed, by the way, does go away if you manage to reduce your curse below 10. However, he persists for the remainder of the current floor and does not actually go away until you reach the next chamber.
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May 22, 2017 07:32
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