Blade Runner 2049: Rick Deckard is a WHAT

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Cinema Discusso > Blade Runner 2049: Rick Deckard is a WHAT

Toxic Fart Syndrome: Jul 2, 2006; *hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.

_{...the meter only goes to 3.6...}; Pork Pro

Holy fuckballs I finally got around to seeing this and wish I had in theaters: completely amazing! :aaaaa:

It should definitely win all if its Oscars and should have gotten a nomination for Best Picture since Get Out is in the running...

# ¿ Jan 29, 2018 03:27

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 30, 2024 10:27

Toxic Fart Syndrome: Jul 2, 2006; *hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.

_{...the meter only goes to 3.6...}; Pork Pro

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

That�s because of a retcon. As we all know, neither Rachel nor Deckard had any special abilities in Blade Runner, because they were specifically designed to be humans in every possible way - minus the rights and other protections.

But in this film, Joseph is told that Rachel is �One of the last gens. Pre-prohibition. Standard issue�. And that means, in the context of Blade Runner 2049, that Rachel is a Nexus 8.

So two different viewers can reach two very different conclusions depending on their familiarity with the original film and the extent to which they consider it �canon�.

How is that a retcon? Joe's model didn't exist in 2019...he never believed he was fully human, but for a bit he believed he was a hybrid.

I think it's heavily implied Rachel was used as a prototype for the N8s, especially when you consider her serial number is still an N7* designation. So if you were just looking it up after the blackout, you would think she was just an old, "standard-issue" replicant from pre-prohibition and not one of the rebel N8s. I suppose you can call that a retcon, but the serial number keeps it consistent in the universe so :shrug:

# ¿ Jan 30, 2018 02:54

Toxic Fart Syndrome: Jul 2, 2006; *hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.

_{...the meter only goes to 3.6...}; Pork Pro

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Well again, it�s a partial retcon.

The �canon� explanation is that, after Tyrell�s death, TyrellCorp desperately churned out a bunch of shoddy robots before the eventual ban.

But, since Blade Runner 2049 is a soft reboot, the narrative presents the Nexus 8s as having always existed.

Where does this come from? I don't remember that in either film and it seems central to the point you're trying to make... :confused:

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Because of the formal qualities of the film, Joseph believes multiple contradictory things, in superposition. He believes that he is fully human, half-human, and fully replicant - simultaneously.

...okay buddy.

Even if he does believe any of this at some point in the film, it is ultimately untrue and isn't it therefore moot? The salient fact is that, if true, he will be hunted by another Blade Runner and have to run (a road with a definitive ending, as we learn at the beginning of the film) and not the metaphysical qualities of the birth. Joe doesn't freak out in the memory lab because he's unsure of his parentage: he could care less about that. He cares that his life, as he knew it, has been completely obliterated by this knowledge. He believes it to be true, even if it is ultimately a lie (like his childhood memories).

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

So let’s break down a few of the possible interpretations of what Joseph believes about his parents:

1) For a person who has not seen the original Blade Runner, “Standard Issue” means that Rachel is a Nexus 8 superpowered robot. [Nexus 6es and 7s are never actually described in this film.] Joseph therefore believes he is a naturally-born robot, who inherited superpowers from both his robot mother and his robot father. [Deckard is a robot, because Blade Runners are all robots, right?] Joseph thinks he’s special because he would be the first robot to be ‘built’ by the robots themselves.

“If a baby can come from one of us, we are our own masters.”

Isn't this contradicted by the fact that no one realized Rachel was even a replicant until Joe found the serial number? And that Joe found the serial number? Also, a little disingenuous to assume viewers of this film had not seen the original. No where is it even implied that Blade Runners are all robots, in fact, that is directly contradicted in the film: Joe's boss reminisces that there weren't any of "his kind" when she was little.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

2) For a person who has seen the original Blade Runner, “Standard Issue” means that Rachel is human. [The entire point of Blade Runner that Rachel is human - effectively a ‘transporter clone’ of Tyrell’s niece. “Standard Issue” must mean ‘pure copy, without any superpower enhancements.’] Joseph therefore believes, however irrationally, that he is a normal human, born of two human parents. He thinks he’s special because his birth fully erases the minimal difference between ‘real’ humans and ‘copied’ humans.

“The world is built on a wall that separates kind. Tell either side, there's no wall...”.

What? Where is this even implied? Deckard's parentage is certainly in question, but Rachel is ~certainly~ a replicant. In both films.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

3) Another person who has seen the original Blade Runner, however, might recall that Pris was a “basic pleasure model” - and could still shove her hand in boiling water and other superpower stuff. In that case, “Standard Issue” means that Rachel is a Nexus 6 superpowered robot. Joseph therefore believes that he is a half-human hybrid who inherited superpowers from his mother - making him an altogether new species of superpowered human.

Again: all these interpretations (and more) are correct, but none are true.

Wasn't there a paragraph at the beginning of each film that concisely explained all of this? :confuoot:

# ¿ Feb 1, 2018 03:12

Toxic Fart Syndrome: Jul 2, 2006; *hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.

_{...the meter only goes to 3.6...}; Pork Pro

Simiain posted:

Godfuckingdamnit, yes you're quite right.

I guess there are more general, intended ambiguities and very specific unintended ambiguities generated by the need to cover up any and all plot holes that arise as the superficial plot bombs along. For me, because I'm a bit dim to be looking out for them, these smaller ambiguities go unnoticed, Mariette is a new, legal replicant simply because thats what the movie tells me when she 'syncs' with Joi and when she shows up with Freysa.

If one explores these unintended ambiguities at too granular a level then you wander into Alien Covenant territory, lose the forest for the trees, and create something forgettable. However, I think because the movie resolutely refuses to get bogged down in the lore and instead institutes your ambiguous, super-positioning soft-retcon in order to maintain the same broad-strokes as the original, that it dodges this trap and will have the original's lasting impact.

For me the one element of the film where I could feel the writers struggle with it's superficial plot-beats/characterisation was Luv's frequent, unnecessary and gratuitous cruelty. It just seemed radically at odds with the languid, futile tone of the film as a whole, and felt to me as if the writers felt like they needed to reproduce some Batty-ish rage and didnt know quite where to put it.

I saw her anger as that of the Dutiful Son when the Prodigal returns. Luv did everything she could for Wallace, perhaps even going beyond what he would strictly approve of in order to please him. Despite this, she is still disposable in Wallace's eyes.

I dunno, I think SuperMecha is looking for ambiguities where none exist, but he's really observant so I want to try and debate.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

You’ve misunderstood what happens.

Joi synchronizes her movements with Mariette’s with motion-tracking software. Mariette does not upload her mind into Joseph’s cellular phone; she is talking about standing ‘inside’ the holographic overlay.

Your last point is why the distinction actually is very important: is Freysa’s ‘revolution’ inclusive towards the lowest levels of humanity, or is it exclusive to replicants? And, for that matter: we know Mariette is prejudiced against cell-phones, but is Freysa?

That’s all to say: is this movement egalitarian or not?

That question is vital, because it informs Joseph’s decision not to kill Deckard. And if Freysa is a replicant supremacist and we read Deckard as human, then he must have been forced into exile. (And Deckard is human, as far as Freysa knows.) So again a pointless ambiguity appears: is Deckard’s exile self-imposed, or is he trapped in Vegas under threat by a ruthless Freysa who only spared his life in exchange for record-scrambling techniques? That certainly makes more sense than the plan to... remain ignorant?

What’s increasingly clear is that Blade Runner 2 is not science fiction but fantasy, moreso than any film I’ve seen. It will not have the staying power of the original because it is so impossibly vague.

But that still proves that Mariette is a replicant, otherwise she wouldn't have been able to sync/perform at all, right? Which kind of blows a hole through the "maybe she's human" angle, yeah? In any event, your own point explodes this theory: in Freysa mind Deckard is human, and therefore replicants require natural humans in order to breed so the movement must be egalitarian, ne?

And to your earlier point, is it all old N8s in the rebellion? Joe joined the rebellion so there must be new models involved.

Joe has been with the LAPD for a while, but there is obvious animosity between human and replicant officers. Joe is required to go through an extensive series of "baseline tests" whenever something stressful happens to him. It is noted several times in the film that he has performed these tests successfully in abundance, and that this level of compliance is an aberration (I would say it is implied that his "rough" childhood memories make him more suited for this line of work, rather than replicants with happy, birthday-party-memories, hence "Constant K"). The words and questions of the test are obviously designed to produce an emotional response, in contrast to the VK test in 2019, which tried to hang the AI in a kind of logic loop, right? The Baseline test seems purpose-built to elicit, not just an emotional response, but a human response, and that such emotional involvement is seen as extremely dangerous and likely met with "retirement."

# ¿ Feb 4, 2018 18:03

Toxic Fart Syndrome: Jul 2, 2006; *hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.

_{...the meter only goes to 3.6...}; Pork Pro

Actually, something I just thought of: with the knowledge that N9s like Joe (and even N8s like Batista) are able to blend in so seemlessly, how is nearly everyone able to mark Joe as a replicant almost instantly?

Specifically, I'm thinking of the scene at the orphanage, when the director is like "better men than you have tried to bring me down...and they were men at that..." How does he know Joe is anything other than human?

# ¿ Feb 10, 2018 00:58

Toxic Fart Syndrome: Jul 2, 2006; *hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.

_{...the meter only goes to 3.6...}; Pork Pro

WENTZ WAGON NUI posted:

Because K is tall, good looking and doesn't seem malnourished/physically disabled. Part of the conceit of Blade Runner is that most of the humans left on earth were in some way considered unfit for space travel; they're people like J.F. Sebastian, the Director or Dr. Badger who probably wouldn't make the trip out of earth's gravity so well; so people can reasonably guess Joe is a replicant just by looking at him.

Oh yeah! Forgot that!

Unoriginal Name posted:

There is Nexus 7(?) model in Wallace's hallway that is a dead ringer for Bautista

This bothered me because, knowing Wallace like we do, I assume those replicants in the tank are fully sentient and know they are just sitting there like goldfish all day, unable to move...
:psyduck:

# ¿ Feb 10, 2018 05:22

Toxic Fart Syndrome: Jul 2, 2006; *hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.

_{...the meter only goes to 3.6...}; Pork Pro

I think everyone takes "gently caress JARED LETO" as a given, so no one commented. :shrug:

Caustic posted:

I love the whole Flight to LAPD through baseline test sequence. I wish that music track was longer on the soundtrack, it's one of my favorites to listen to (especially as I drive into the city).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpCgdtnMcfE

I can't stress this enough but if you have not watched this film on Bluray you are doing yourself a great disservice. A lot of the visuals are lost in compression, not even the best streaming comes close...

# ¿ Mar 26, 2018 17:06

Toxic Fart Syndrome: Jul 2, 2006; *hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.

_{...the meter only goes to 3.6...}; Pork Pro

This was neat:

https://twitter.com/therealelp/status/979058790501965825

# ¿ Mar 30, 2018 03:21

Toxic Fart Syndrome: Jul 2, 2006; *hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.

_{...the meter only goes to 3.6...}; Pork Pro

Jedit posted:

Making replicants is easy on Earth. Making them in the Offworld Colonies is not. That's what makes natural birth replicants a game-changer; you can send out a group of male human colonists with a much larger batch of female replicants to establish the colony, then once it's established you use the replicants for rapid population growth. Say you normally start a colony with 500 male/female couples. If instead you send 100 men and 900 female replicants you have at least the physical capacity of 1000 men; the ability to reproduce faster because replicants won't care if their guy is banging eight other women and won't object to being kept constantly pregnant; much greater genetic diversity because the replicants also won't mind changing partners; and the possibility of the human/replicant hybrids inheriting the superior genes of the replicant parent.

So the revolution starts on Earth and then the vengeful, murderous robots take to the stars to stamp out the human pestilence?

I'm down for a third film to make it a trilogy! :woop:

# ¿ Jun 15, 2018 01:41

Toxic Fart Syndrome: Jul 2, 2006; *hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.

_{...the meter only goes to 3.6...}; Pork Pro

veni veni veni posted:

Maybe this is old news, but apparently there is a 4 hour cut of this movie that exists. Which was news to me. Don't know if I'd watch it or not. Thought it was plenty long even though I loved it.

I'd watch the ~Director's Cut~ and they'd be idiots not to wait a few years and cash-in just like the original.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2018 00:51

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 30, 2024 10:27

Toxic Fart Syndrome: Jul 2, 2006; *hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.

_{...the meter only goes to 3.6...}; Pork Pro

basic hitler posted:

He probably made them more obedient by using only certain kinds of artificial memories. Since they're making what are essentially humans from the ground up, whose memories are entirely implants, they can use only memories that form a specific kind of docile personality that's averse to rebellion or unnecessary violence

Also easy to manipulate since you understand their drives and fears better than they do, being the architect of their minds.

# ¿ Oct 7, 2018 23:05

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Cinema Discusso > Blade Runner 2049: Rick Deckard is a WHAT