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Throwing Turtles posted:Ben describes himself as apolitical, pissed off at everything then lists unions, the ACLU, and the government. They both hate President Logan. Ah the good ol' "I'm apolitical, I just hate everything Liberal, but don't call me a Republican!" stance. Ben is a proto-teapartier.
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Jan 5, 2017 06:05
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Two blacks, an oriental, and an Indian walk into a bar...
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Jan 5, 2017 14:54
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JcDent posted:"The world has ended. NIGGERS!" More like, "I get along fine with the blacks, as long as they're the good ones, the ones who aren't out there in packs raping white women and killing each other for fun. Racists? Those are people who say friend of the family."
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Jan 5, 2017 16:52
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pookel posted:More like, "I get along fine with the blacks, as long as they're the good ones, the ones who aren't out there in packs raping white women and killing each other for fun. Racists? Those are people who say friend of the family." "They can even be beautiful, so long as they don't have any negroid features." Yeah, that sentence felt really uncomfortable to type.
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Jan 5, 2017 19:02
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He must have grown in a very strange time to be thinking about race that much. I mean, I am a great fan of white girls, but come on! I wonder if some "incel" weirdo bathroom warrior is writing a strangely gender fixated novel right now
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Jan 5, 2017 21:20
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Sixteen So remember when Ben was telling it like it was about race for what seemed like forever. Yeah this chapter has more of that, but now it’s mixed with awkward flirting. We now join them mid conversation. quote:“You could start by killing all the rednecks,” Salina suggested. Ben did not think she was joking.” So white people make up poo poo about black people, and it’s black people's responsibility to sort that poo poo out and make white people feel safe. quote:“As for rednecks, Salina, allow me to play devil’s advocate for a moment. Back when things were normal, if you’d had a flat on the highway--” Not all rednecks. Also if he’s seen this situation play out a hundred times it means he probably lives in an area paved with nails and glass. quote:…Point I’m trying to make, babe, is this: you look closely at most people, you’ll find some good in them. Maybe not much, but some. Unless he’s a punk, pure, and then you can search forever and not find anything of redeeming value.” quote:She reluctantly agreed with a short bob of her head. “I read all your books while at your house, Ben. You never wrote much about the black experience.” The Black Experience sounds like a nightclub. quote:“Sure. I’m prejudiced against anyone, of any color, who wants acceptance, but refuses to conform--even just a little bit--to gain it. This goes on for several paragraphs. Salina thinks Ben is a snob. quote:“There isn’t that much to clear, babe. Education on both sides. Conformity— there again, on both sides . . .” quote:…”Ben, where are we?” They hook up with Ike and start heading west. They stop at a lakeside cabin for some fishing and awkward flirting. quote:“Why are you staring at me?” she asked, turning her head, meeting his eyes.  quote:Juno sat looking up at the darkening sky. And if he had a thought that could be put into words, it would be: humans sure do act funny  We get a peek at what Logan is doing. He has the merc Parr in command of his private army. They are doing all the necessary rounding up and resettling. The actual army just kind of sat there. He appointed a guy named Aston Addison to be the vice president. All we know about him is the military approved of the choice. We also get this little insight. quote:My God, you’d think I was trying to deny them their sex lives instead of their guns.What is this morbid fascination with guns, anyway? People are really dying fighting over a gun. It’s stupid, Fran. Ignorant.” The call goes out again, anybody wanting to live free should take everything the can carry and head west. Also we hate lawyers quote:Tell lawyers to stay the hell out; we don’t want them, don’t need them. Our laws will be very simple and very few and enforced to the letter; no muddying the water. They will be enforced to the letter. No exceptions. No deals. No plea-bargaining. No twisting of words— truth. Our nation is going to be a bit different from that to which you’ve been accustomed. We’re going to try something; see if it will work. So leave us alone. And let’s check in with the Illinois Nazi’s quote:He’s your brother, Carl,” Jeb Fargo said. “What’s he tryin to pull?”
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Jan 6, 2017 02:25
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Dude's got a real "well, if you think about it, it's really partly your fault black people that white people gently caress up your lives so much" theme going.
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Jan 6, 2017 02:33
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There are times when I think the word "whitesplaining" gets overused, but holy hell is he doing it here. You would think simple logic would tell him that if you're a member of a racial minority, living in a country that's about 70% white, with a government and economic elite class that's about 99% white, you're probably already familiar with ~the white experience.~ Also, being hugely oversensitive about race is par for the course for white Republicans of his generation. They liked MLK! They supported civil rights! What more do you people want? As far as they're concerned, black people in America achieved perfect equality in 1964, and anything after that is just entitled whining and/or crazy militancy.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:01
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JcDent posted:There is an old post nuclear war RPG called Tomorrow Project. In the vein of all good old RPGs, it starts with a massively autistic chartaton to calculate what places get hit and by what, and how much radiation remains, and radiation sickness. One weird thing about it is that they include bacteriological ICBMs into the list. Where the soviets seriously deploying biological weapons in missiles? I think you mean The Morrow Project, which gets pretty figure-heavy for what's essentially "Earth Two with Green Berets". As for the bacteriological ICBMs, I believe that was something the Russians were heavily believed to consider. IIRC, it was thought their nuclear tech wasn't on par with the U.S. and other nuclear powers, so they supplemented their rocket forces with biowarfare warheads. I'm not sure if this was bullshit or paper tiger stuff to validate increase defense budgets toward bioweapons research. JcDent posted:Back to guns: glad to see that Beehive Bob is choosing the manly pistol cartridge, the 45 ACP. Only a commie pinko librul would use the much inferior 9mm. I guess this book was released before Rainbow Six, as in that book they used MP5s chambered in 45 ACP (which exist, since MP5 is the AK of SMGs) Actually, the whole thing about Johnstone/Ben making GBS threads on the M16s in favor for the BAR reminded me of that fake conservative fiction manuscript that appeared in GBS a few months ago. It actually sold me on the validity of the story, although I might have influenced the poster by bringing up that same "5.56mm is a weak sissy varmit round, 7.62mm/30-06/30-30/.50 cal is a man's cartridge" trope and they incorporated into their hoax.
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Jan 6, 2017 19:00
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Young Freud posted:I think you mean The Morrow Project, which gets pretty figure-heavy for what's essentially "Earth Two with Green Berets". Weather or not biological weapons were being made at the time, they certainly were in popular culture. Bioweapons were a major plot point in Illuminatus which was published in 1975
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Jan 6, 2017 20:42
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The rest of chapter 16 is a list of people who went west to join the rebels, and its almost biblical in its editing. quote:Lieutenant Conger was the platoon leader of a contingent of Rebels coming from the east. Ectera ectera. One bit worth bringing up quote:... I hate a damned lawyer. This man out West --according’ to the Reb--is gonna make the law so plain, so simple, so easy to follow, that even a child can understand it. Throughout the series it’s clear he means both civil and criminal law. All we ever see is that it works, it’s never explained beyond make it so simple a child can understand. I’m trying to imagine contract law so simple a child can understand. Chapter Seventeen President Logan is having lunch with V.P. Aston to discuss the pressing matters of the Rebels. quote:Aston, there is a bunch of people, four or five thousand, maybe more, all heading west. They are stealing everything that isn’t nailed down. And sometimes that doesn’t even stop them.” It’s clear nobody, author or character realizes how big this country is. Let’s be fair and say that the Rebels have 10,000 people and their all driving semis. For comparison we have about 3.5 million truck drivers operating today. I don’t know what the inflation for truckers is but I think it’s safe to say their were 1 million truckers at the time this was written. quote:…”They even stole a railroad.” I know this bit is to make Logan look dumb and Aston look smart but I’m pretty sure you could steal railroad tracks if you were determined. quote:“To transport all the things they’re stealing! Aston, they’ve broken into military bases and armories and stolen God only knows how much heavy artillery and bombs and guns and anything else they could get their hands on. Radar is gone from many places. Highly sophisticated electronic gear, computers--you name it, those people took it. A bunch of those crazy navy porpoises stole an entire base. Everything! They even took the damned portable buildings. To be fair to Logan porpoises are cooler animals then SEALs” quote:I made a speech on the senate floor one time, I remember it well. I said that Green Berets and Rangers and SEALs and all those special units should be disbanded. They’re all nuts! I said--” That’s kind of a surprise. Wasn’t expecting him to be a veteran. Anyways, Parr is too busy with the relocation efforts, the actual military isn’t organized enough to stop the rebels, and they wouldn’t go along with it anyway. quote:“All right , then do this for me: break up that bunch of people in Illinois. You know what they are, Hilton.” This whole plan reminds me of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9yruQM1ggc We jump ahead to August. The Rebels are occupying Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana. In addition to everything military, medical, and edible, they rounded up every single ounce of precious metal and every chip of precious gem to back the new currency. quote:“Is the military coming in?” a woman asked. “Dear God, we need help in the worst way.” In these books you have a lot of NPCs waiting around to give out quests. This shouldn’t be a surprise but Johnstone is fully on board with the idea that we could have won Vietnam if we just let our soldiers alone. He extends it to the idea that our army is made up of Rambo clones that will never be defeated as long as they are allowed to be Rambo. For reference Rambo two came out three years after this book was published. quote:The few survivors in each state were in almost total confusion due to lack of organization, something nearly all governments discourage. For local militias, except those under government control, cannot be established in the United States, not for over a hundred years. For, as had been pointed out, most governments, certainly including the government of the United States, are based on fear; fear of the central power, fear of the IRS, fear of the FCC, fear of the FBI, fear of the ICC, fear of the state police, fear of the local police, fear of everything. That is the only way a massive government can work. If the people were armed and organized, and of one mind, they just might start hanging rapists, murderers, armed robbers, burglars, and others of that slimy ilk— those they didn’t shoot from the outset, that is. Among the crowds we find out that Jerre has shown up. Also they will be opening the colleges up in a few months. It’s also pointed out that they have no political leadership. quote:“Who is the governor?” Tatter asked. “The leader— the man in charge?” Ben Raines is a very stupid man. We jump to Winter where we learn about New Africa. Logan has granted them permission to stay, but they don’t have any rights to oil or gas. Also Ben hates the FCC quote:In a very short time, the three states controlled by Ben’s People, as Logan had begun saying, would have the finest communications network in the world, including public radio and TV, free from the constraints of the FCC and the mumblings and threats of pressure groups, who used to maintain (and would again) that they “only wanted what was best for the people.” I get that conservatives don’t like the Fairness doctrine, but it seems like things would get pretty messy if you didn’t have a way to keep people from intruding on each others frequencies. Ben has gotten in touch with Cecil to figure out what’s going on quote:“Cecil’s blacks, Ben?” Johnstone does this a lot, he sets up a racist idea, a black character follows it to it’s obvious conclusion, the the black character takes the blame for saying it. quote:It had been talked about for years: breaking the United States into several nations. But it had never been taken seriously. Until now. It’s been talked about since 1861, but not seriously apparently. quote:Survivors were, or so it seemed, fleeing their devastated homelands, from all over the world, all of them heading for the land of opportunity: America. And Logan, with his small military, seemed unable to stem the tide or kill the dream. I think we just shifted to the 1930s for some reason. Hilton’s secretary of state is named Dallas Valentine. Fran advises Logan to leave the tiny kingdoms alone and focus on setting up the areas they control, which includes oil, the breadbasket and the ports. Once they start to fail they will be in place to absorb them. quote:He’d have to ask Rev. Palmer Falcreek over to the White House for lunch with him . . . soon. Tell him about it. Falcreek was such a good man. Already he was setting up a committee to boycott any film that came out of what was called the New Hollywood. Falcreek wanted only good, clean, wholesome entertainment. Dogs and horses and stuff like that. Cowboys with inexhaustible six-shooters. None of that wiggle-jiggle stuff. quote:“Jeb Fargo?” the president questioned. “What has he to do with this? His people are farmers, dear.” Just a couple of pages ago Hilton knew exactly who Jeb was as he was planning to use him to keep New Africa in line. So either he’s playing dumb here, or Johnstone forgot. I can’t tell which. Also the first time Klucker popped up I thought it said Kucker. 2016 has been hard on all of us. Also Fran is cheating on Logan with Dallas Valentine. quote:She liked ol’ Dallas--he was hung like that ol’ boy used to gently caress her in the barn when she was just a teenager. Had a cock about a foot and a half long, just like Dallas. Springtime for rape quote:“Why did you think you’d never see it again?” Ben asked. Let’s talk justice quote:“Do you ever feel you were wrong?” Something I’ve realized recently due to a stupid facebook fight is the idea that “Rapists should be castrated” is actually a pretty big problem in getting people to recognize that rape happens. They aren’t thinking “Did a rape occur” instead they are thinking “Does this person deserve to be castrated.” We get some statistics on how many died. Two thirds of the world population, about 3.5 billion judging by the 1990 world population. 150 million in the IS, out of 250 million. Ben also finds out the exact population of the Tri-States quote:“That, I can tell you precisely,” an aide said to Ben. We also find out that some part of the ACLU and they are really mad at Raines. Apparently they don’t care about everything Logan is doing.
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Jan 6, 2017 22:47
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Throwing Turtles posted:I’m just gonna add dicks to list of things Johnstone doesn’t know about.
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Jan 6, 2017 22:58
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Throwing Turtles posted:
Like if a white guy screws up, it's just on that guy, it's not an indictment of his race, whereas when a black guy screws up some people will take that as an excuse to make broad statements about "well you know what they say..." and this highlights a double standard. He can't be saying that, but I'm not sure what else he's saying.
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Jan 6, 2017 23:49
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Guavanaut posted:I must be reading this wrong, because other than his barely concealed glee at getting his black characters to say epithets, the sentiment seems almost progressive. He's saying that, but attributing all the racism to liberals and actual neo-Nazis, while portraying the regular conservative guy as racially progressive.
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Jan 6, 2017 23:55
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Every attractive woman Ben meets fucks him within hours of meeting him. I bet Johnstone based that on his real life, for sure!
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Jan 7, 2017 01:55
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So is Ben Johnstones dick two feet long or what, so as to not br out dicked by somr lawyer Valentine? Eventually, people with fut long dick fetished found hentai...
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Jan 7, 2017 08:12
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JcDent posted:So is Ben Johnstones dick two feet long or what, so as to not br out dicked by somr lawyer Valentine? The thing is that, unless you have another heart or one of those pump implants, a human dick over a foot can't get full erect. It's just too much volume for the human cardiovascular system to keep filled.
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Jan 7, 2017 10:23
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So Space Marines, is that what you're saying?
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Jan 7, 2017 10:48
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JcDent posted:So Space Marines, is that what you're saying? Or half-equine or half-bovine human hybrids. You have to have huge pump to keep your balloon inflated.
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Jan 7, 2017 11:20
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I don't like where this is going. Stop it.
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Jan 7, 2017 16:02
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OK! I think this is the least concerned with the nuclear apocalypse book of all book featuring nuclear apocalypse. Cities and especially nuclear installations are basically intact, nobody is starving - the super flue in Duel is more destructive than this. There's basically no reason why nukes can't replaced by space cold or something.
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Jan 7, 2017 16:06
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JcDent posted:OK! Yeah, I was a bit surprised by the numbers being thrown around in the text. Ben deduces at the beginning of the book that there's probably 35,000 people who survived out of the world wide population from a combination biological epidemic and WW3, TOTAL, not in just in the United States but worldwide. But then, Chicago has dueling race armies that number in the tens of thousands each and Ben has a personal army of four to five thousand running around the East Coast.
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Jan 7, 2017 17:58
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Also despite the constant threat of rape everyone seems pretty nonchalant about getting on with life. And there seem to be limitless supplies of food, though I guess that was established through the plot device of clean nukes.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:10
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Chapter 18 This is the last chapter of part two, and this is as close to a Galt speech as we're going to get. This get's repeated from time to time, little changes here and there, but pretty much just this. Johnstone is much better at getting to the point then Rand was. quote:There were many who left the three-state area, but many more stayed and more wanted in. Some of those who came in also left after seeing what was happening, but most stayed. Life was not easy; rebuilding and conforming never is. Eighteen-hour days were not uncommon; there was a lot to do and everybody was expected to work without whining about it. I have so many questions. Vigilante enforcement of minor environmental standards? What if the guy burning the leaves is bigger than you, or armed, like everybody else in this paradise? What if you go over to dispense some righteous jaw bustin and you accidently kill him? What if he kills you on his property? Can he claim self defense? No municipal trash service? quote:Many roads leading into the three-state area were destroyed, deliberately, to prevent easy access. There were signs posted all along the borders, warning travelers that the laws in these states were very different from those to which they had grown accustomed, and justice came down very hard and very swift. They didn’t post the laws themselves, or highlights of poo poo you might accidently do, but they did warn you that the laws were different and justice would be swift, maybe your neighbor coming by to bust your jaw. quote:
People have already pointed out the weird population bounce this series undergoes. Piece of advice, don’t dwell too much, this is literally the the best it gets. After book two the population is produced from Gauntlet like monster generators. Also we are a year into this disaster and people have survived. This doesn’t bother me much, I’m an optimist and I kind of expect people to survive. We are actually pretty good at it. What bothers me is the unemployed people. There’s millions of them. What are they doing? Does food just magically appear? This chapter is wrapping up part two, is very short containing only the stuff above and one action sequence. quote:How hated Ben’s system of government was did not come home to the people of the three states until late fall of the first year. Ben had stepped outside of his home for a breath of cold, clean air of night. Juno went with him, and together they walked from the house around to the front. When Juno growled, Ben went into a crouch, and that saved his life. Automatic weapon fire spider-webbed the windshield of his truck, the sparks hitting and ricocheting off the metal, sparking up the night. quote:Standing over the fallen man, Ben could see where his shots had gone: two in the stomach, one in the chest. The man was splattered with blood and dying. He coughed and spat at Ben.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:41
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The chapters have gone from fairly long to very short. Part Three The Swift Years Chapter one quote:The death of Carl Raines probably did more to ensure the immediate survival of the three states than any other single act. It shocked Logan when the news finally reached him, and Logan, like most people who heard the story, reasoned that if a man believed so strongly in an idea he would kill his brother. . . that man had best be left alone. And for five years, the Tri-states, as they were referred to, were left alone. In five years Logan had managed to rebuild the military and establish law and order east of the Mississippi. He also crushed all the tiny countries and kingdoms in the area. New Africa was no more, Cecil quietly took down the flag and informed his people that they couldn’t win against the United States and that people should do what they must. He and a few others left for the Tri-states, most decided to keep farming and working where they were. quote:...Ben immediately named Cecil as his lieutenant governor and Pal the secretary of state. Ben’s five year plan looks a lot like communism. He picked the cities and towns that would remain, had the rest scavenged then destroyed. The people who were moved were given nice homes and apartments, and warned against allowing slums to grow up. quote:The people were pulled together for many reasons: to conserve energy, to stabilize government, for easier care, and to afford more land to the production of crops, as well as to afford better protection for people in health care, police, fire, and social services. https://gizmodo.com/inside-an-amazing-village-designed-just-for-people-with-1526062373 Back to our utopia, there is no welfare of any kind, it’s not needed because everybody had a job. quote:Everyone. Those who would not, because they felt the job offered them was beneath their dignity, or because of laziness, apathy, and/or indifference, were escorted to the nearest border and booted out. They were told not to come back. If children were involved, they were taken from the people and immediately adopted. We also get a description of the defense. Bunkers, artillery, land mines, radar, roads and bridges ready to detonate at any time. Also everybody from 16-60 was trained and in a national reserve style program. quote:The armed forces of the Tri-states ranked among the best in the world, their training a combination of Special Forces, Ranger, Seal, and gutter-fighting. Every member of the Tri-states army are special forces. We should do that in real life, sounds swell. In any case Logan realizes that the only way to defeat them at the moment is with nukes so he held off. The Tri-states is strongly allied with the Indians of the West. The Indians were able to set up much the same way that the Tri-states did. quote:...Where there had once been a scarcity of water, it now moved freely. With the help of “borrowed” earth-moving equipment from deserted construction sites, and engineers from the Tir-states, the flow of water helped irrigate the crops and cool the thirst of a hundred and fifty years of wasted promises, broken treaties, and millions of words from Washington--all lies. This reminds me of Trump’s claim that there is no drought, they just need to dig some tunnels.
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Jan 7, 2017 21:12
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The ideal conservative state is a socialist utopia under a benevolent dictator? 
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Jan 7, 2017 21:38
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A benevolent dictator who appears to be able to solve complicated systemic difficulties entirely because everyone really likes him. My guess is he's a sorceror who maxed his charisma and picked charm for all his spells.
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Jan 7, 2017 22:19
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JonathonSpectre posted:Every attractive woman Ben meets fucks him within hours of meeting him. The part about losing his virginity to a hooker rings true.
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Jan 7, 2017 23:14
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I love reading between the lines of these sections...quote:Young, middle-aged, and elderly who wanted to work, and could work, were encouraged to do so. quote:Those who would not, because they felt the job offered them was beneath their dignity, or because of laziness, apathy, and/or indifference, were escorted to the nearest border and booted out. They were told not to come back. If children were involved, they were taken from the people and immediately adopted. It's like the most passive-aggressive form of slavery: "Hey, guys, as President of these three states, I think it's a swell idea if you worked. Just a reminder, that anyone who is capable of working but isn't is going to go to the Outside." Oh, and the taking their kids away is some hosed up poo poo. Also, the "everyone is special forces" thing is something you'd find in loving Nationstates. Seriously, just because you train them in special forces tactics and such doesn't mean they are. Weren't the stories of the SEALs' BUD/S, "Hell Week", and Ranger School well know in the early '80s? Part of the reason they're special forces is because of physical and psychological demands that most people can not muster, even with the cozy catastrophe apocalyptic hellscape of "Out Of The Ashes". You can't expect 40-50 year olds to hump 90 pounds of gear 30 miles. Also, that poo poo takes loving training: Green Beret training takes a solid year, SEALs take 18 months. This isn't something you can do on a weekend or part time while tending crops. Ranger School has like something like 20 hour days. The whole point of the training is to stress you to the point of death and people have gotten severely injured or died during special forces training. People have gotten hypothermia or drowned. I reading something right now that a guy had sickle cell anemia, didn't know it, died during a mountain climb during Ranger training. Also, whose ranking these guys "best in the world"? I don't think Jane's Defense is still around.
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Jan 8, 2017 04:31
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I don't think that very much was known about the various special forces in the 80s, at least not much that was specific. According to wiki, which I'm willing to trust here, the military was not happy with projects depicting the special forces. There was also some scandal involving special forces and they kind of dropped off the map. They started appearing more as the decade went on. The A-Team was in 83 and Commando was released in 85. But it didn't cover training, it just signified bad rear end.
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Jan 8, 2017 06:27
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Throwing Turtles posted:I don't think that very much was known about the various special forces in the 80s, at least not much that was specific. According to wiki, which I'm willing to trust here, the military was not happy with projects depicting the special forces. There was also some scandal involving special forces and they kind of dropped off the map. When you say "projects", you mean movies and such? I know the military probably wasn't happy with stuff like Apocalypse Now or even First Blood and their depictions of special forces and their vets. And John Wayne's The Green Berets, which they did back, is pretty much a joke. You started seeing stuff coming back with military support following Top Gun. Fake edit: Wikipedia is telling me that the first movie to depict a Navy SEAL is The Abyss, which ain't that positive of a portrayal since Michael Biehn's character goes nuts and tries to blow up the aliens and everyone with a nuke. The next is Navy SEALs with Biehn and Charlie Sheen, which basically popularized the unit. Also, the scandal was probably Operation Eagle Claw, which was the first publicized Delta Force by focusing on the mission-ending accident. It's the reason why special forces now have their own air wing. The point is that, be it Green Berets, SEALs, Rangers, British SAS or GRU Spetsnaz, special forces could be compared to playing professional football in the NFL. There's a lot of people who think that they can make it because they played high school or college football, not many actually the cut; just because you know the game is played doesn't mean you could manage or compete against a professional team and expect to win; and there's an expiration date on players who actually get there before age, hubris, or, more likely, injury takes them out of the career.
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Jan 8, 2017 07:27
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Planned economy is good when I'm the one planning it! I like how he mentions that anyone of any age can work which implies that child labor laws don't exist. I wonder how this conservomunist communities deal with renumeration: is everyone getting the same share of food and housing? How do they determine who gets the better looted TVs or better housing? How do they determine the "worth" of work? What if someone is a poet or a painter, do they also have to clean the gutters and tear down housing? I would have far fewer objections if they were setting out overtly to build communism. As for the special forces, it's both unrealistic and unnecessary to have everyone trained to special forces level. Do you need your seal militia to guard places, run convoys, do engineering and logistics? A well trained militia would be enough and you don't need to seal train artillery men or TOW operators.
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Jan 8, 2017 12:06
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I was expecting all the super-skeevy racial and sexual poo poo, the bizarre military fetishism and the generally sloppy as hell writing, but having the superpatriot right-wing utopia turn out to basically be War Communism has actually thrown me for a loop.
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Jan 8, 2017 14:44
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It's almost like most Conservatives only fetishize capitalism while not actually understanding what it is and means and just project their ideals on to what it should mean.
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Jan 8, 2017 18:27
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Chichevache posted:The ideal conservative state is a socialist utopia under a benevolent dictator?
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Jan 8, 2017 18:46
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Chapter Two Logan wants to be Lincoln. quote:“I know there is no easy answer, but we simply can’t allow much more of this to continue. If those two groups ever get a really firm toehold--and our intelligence people say they are talking written alliance--it’ll be the devil getting them back into the Union. Maybe impossible. Also the president doesn’t know the first lady is having a string of affairs, and that secret service is spending all of their time hiding them. quote:Hilton Logan rubbed his temples; his headache had returned. It always did whenever he discussed Ben Raines. He thought: God, how I hate that bastard. Even Rev. Falcreek hates him. And he loves everybody… even Jane Fonda, so he says. quote:“Everybody carries a gun out there. My god, Aston--even the ladies carry guns. Those nuts are teaching war in the public school system. The entire is an army!” So the Tri-states looks like a gun meme. Aston lists everything that’s working about the Tri-states, which is everything. quote:Aston tapped a thick letter on the president’s desk. “Here it is Hilton. You read it. Ben Raines has made the first peace overture. He says they will pay a fair share of taxes to the government of the United States, to be decided upon; vote, live under the American flag, and fight for it, if need be. But they will run their own schools. They have their own laws, their own way of doing things. Logan then spends a page blaming Ben Raines for everything. We also hear about everything the Tri-states are doing right from the Tri-states perspective. Which is everything. In the first year they executed over one hundred people, around fifty the second, ten the third, then zero. It wasn’t all capital punishment, they had prisons that sound a hell of a lot better then we have here. Prisoners were also allowed weekly visits from prostitutes, which is “legal, regulated, and taxed. Schools started weapons training and guerrilla warfare at fifteen. Military service was mandatory. Sports were treated as games of little importance beyond the exercise to be stopped if they interfere with other schooling. Ben also takes time to lecture to the students about why the war happened. It was just like Rome to many social programs and arenas. Then the barbarian hordes showed up in the sixties and took us off the gold standard. quote:“Here in the United States, such things as patriotism, love of god, duty, honor, became objects of ridicule. A day’s work for a fair day’s pay was replaced by greed; and if the product was faulty, the worker didn’t care. Strikes became the rule instead of the exception. Craftsmen became a thing of the past when the assembly line took over and goods were thrown together for nor regard for the consumer. Those responsible for got that we were all consumers. And this highlight quote:So instead of the wealthy paying the brunt of the taxes, the lower and middle classes paid them. It was wrong, but Congress refused to correct it. Illuminatus posted:He drafted the first proclamation to be issued by his new government; it took the best slogans of the most powerful left-wing and right-wing groups on the island and embedded them firmly in a tapioca-like context of bland liberal-conservatism. The second half of the chapter is about how great everything is. Everybody adopted kids, those kids became master soldiers, people read and had breakfast and wore sweaters and cut roses and everything I think of when I hear a Gordon Lightfoot song.
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Jan 9, 2017 21:42
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So his ideal government is some kind of weird militarist anarcho syndicalism where everyone sort of collectively agrees on everything and everything is voluntary and it all works because people all believe in the ideals and goals of the collective. Except also there's this weird conservative moralizing streak mixed in and while constructing a quite good criticism of capitalism in places he fails to identify it by name.
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Jan 9, 2017 22:05
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Remember how obsessed a lot of Republicans were with maintaining a "September 12th" mentality? Group conflict and a sense of perpetual crisis are a great way to have collectivism without equality.
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Jan 9, 2017 23:09
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Chapter 3-5 I’m just gonna cover the next few chapters in one go. It’s essentially a press conference that covers everything that’s already been said. One thing to be said for it, it works rather well compared to books like Atlas Shrugged. In Atlas Shrugged you have people monologuing at each other as a way to get the point across.A character orders a hamburger you get five paragraphs about man’s perfect nature expressed as a fry cook. Here you have a group of outside reporters coming in after six years of isolation. They are mostly liberal strawmen, but the question and answer format is a lot more natural. Johnstone seems to realize at least on a subconscious level that lowering crime means ending poverty. He's fairly insistent that the low crime rate is due to frequent use of the death penalty and hard laws, but the programs he's listed here would do a much better job at lowering crime. It’s been six years since the Tri-states have been founded. Kenny Parr killed Kasim off screen, and everybody else started putting things back together. The apocalypse has been downgraded from everybody dies to a bad weekend in Shadowrun. Government quote:A small town stood almost directly in the center of Tri-states. It’s name was changed to Vista, and that became the capital. Their flag was a solid, light blue banner with three stars in a circle. A constitution had been drawn up during the first year, much like the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States, but going into detail and spelling out exactly what the citizens of Tri-states could receive and expect if they lived under the document. They have a new precise constitution. This is a good thing as our constitution is incredibly vague. The conservatives in these books talk about getting back to the constitution, but occasionally they accidentally admit the constitution is pretty loving vague. quote:The first session of the legislature(to held one time each year, no more than two weeks in length) was probably the shortest on record, anywhere. Major Voltan, a spokesman from the second district, summed it up. quote:But could this form of government work with millions of people? No, they concluded it could not. And they were correct in that assumption… to a degree. After six years the Tri-states decide to open their borders. They invited the press from the outside to come and cover it. quote:A moment later they were the first outside reporters to visit the Tri-states (legaly) since the states’ inception. One reporter would later write: “The soldier in the tower never made a hostile move; never pointed the muzzle at us. But it was like looking at the Berlin wall for the first time.” He goes on at length describing how the people of the Tri-states are great, really the best, also they have guns and are allowed to punch people to solve problems. quote:A lone male reporter stood in the back of the crowd and solemnly applauded the drivers speach. “How eloquently put,” he said. I’m just gonna go ahead and pretend this guy looks like Bill O'reilly. quote:The words had just left his mouth when the door to an office whipped open and a uniformed army Rebel stepped out, master sergeant stripes on the sleeves of his tiger-stripes. He was short, muscular, hard-looking, and deeply tanned. He wore a .45 automatic, holstered, on his right side. The sergeant offers him a choice, apologize or fight him, Barney declines, quote:Judith walked to Barney’s side. She remembered the bus driver’s words and sensed there was very little humor involved in any of this, and if there was, the joke was going to be on Barney. And it wasn’t going to be funny. “Barney, ease off. Apologize to her. You were out of line.” quote:”Well, who is the final authority on Tri-states law?” a woman asked. Four Everybody is given a visitor’s pass. We also find that there is a standardized ID. quote:“We’ve given asylum to many so-called criminals from bordering states. Some of the police from those states have tried to come in after them, undercover, slipping in without our knowledge. They didn’t make it, but it did force us to go to a permanent ID” This doesn’t really click, the only way this would work is if the police had the power to stop and force people to identify themselves. Which I guess they do? quote:“Explain those permanent IDs,” Roisseau was asked. These are only a couple of paragraphs apart. quote:“Sir,” Bridge said, “in other states, punks and hoodlums were--and probably still are--pampered and petted by judges, psychologists, counselors, and petunia-picking social workers quote:After they’ve been warned, repeatedly, not to commit vandalism, and taught it in the schools, we attempt to find out why they would do so. Is it because of their home life? Are they abused? Do they have a mental problem? We try to find out then correct the problem. But they will also work while we’re doing that: painting public buildings or working for the elderly, picking up litter--which if you’ll observe, we don’t have much of. A shooting quote:“One fellow was messin’ with another man’s wife. He kept messin’ with her even though as witnesses pointed out, the woman told him, time after time, to leave her alone. She finally went to her husband and told him. The husband warned the man--once. The warning didn’t take. The husband called the man out one afternoon; told him he was going to beat the hell out of him. Romeo came out with a gun in his hand. Bad mistake. Husband killed him.” Good guys are always better at things. Ending Poverty quote:“By ripping down any slum or shack area and building new housing, and not permitting a building to deteriorate. We have very tough housing codes, and they are enforced…” But it’s not communism because the population is armed. There are no poor people and it’s very difficult to get rich because of a progressive marginal tax system. Community planning. quote:Kids played along the sidewalks and yards, their laughter and behavior reminiscent of an age long past. No horns honked, no mufflers roared, no huge trucks rumbled about. Trucks, unless they were moving vans, were forbidden to enter residential areas. The only exception was pickups. Unless it was an emergency, horns did not honk in Tri-states. Straight pipes, glass packs, and other such adolescent silliness were banned. There were lots of sidewalks--all of them new--to walk upon, and there were bike paths for the pedalers. Speed limits were low, and they were rigidly enforced They meet Ben quote:Ben was dressed in blue jeans, a pullover shirt, and cowboy boots. Salina wore white Levi’s a blue western shirt, and tennis shoes. We also find out that the girl who kicked the reporters rear end was Ben’s daughter. Ben holds a press conference which goes over how great everything is here. The kicker being that you have to want to live here. He also acknowledges that 90% of the population couldn’t or wouldn’t want to live under this government. quote:“Governor…” A woman rose. “I’m an atheist. Could I live in the area?” Healthcare quote:“Our facilities are excellent, and seventy-five percent free to the public. The state pays the first 75%, the patient the remainder, and that can be paid on installments or by a state loan. But no one is denied medical care--ever.” Other highlights, paramedics handle most of the minor stuff. Mandatory organ donor program. Euthanasia is legal. Labor laws quote:“Do you plan to keep unions out?” quote:“No. They are low, really, and we can keep them that way because our revenue goes to things other than fine new jails, federal grants and programs, make-work projects, investigating the sexual habits of a grubworm, and pork-barrel boondoggles. Out of curiosity I looked up grub worms, and they might want to spend a little research money on them. They are the larval stage of a pest that feeds on grass, after they develop into beetles they eat more important plants. Ben wraps up his press conference with this. quote:“The Tri-states is broken up into districts,” Ben said. “Each district has a team of five men and women, all volunteers, all highly trained. Only a very few people know their identities. They are called zero squads because that is the odds of their coming out of their assignments--zero. They might be able to complete their assignments in a week; more likely it will take some months, but they will complete their assignments, believe that.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:24
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Again with the gun-communism. Seriously the logical takeaway from his whole bit about unions is that the entire society is collectivist so union are... bad... because they're all living in one... This guy has this weird loving disconnect between words and concepts. If this thing was written during the cold war it certainly shows it. Congratulations you're a commie, you just can't say it.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:36
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