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Suggestion for OP: A FAQ so someone not in the know can get their questions answered in relatively short order without getting jumped on as a troll and regulars can just point to so we can avoid annoying conversations like "am I a feminist?" or "why isn't it called gender egalitarianism?" Because I didn't view those guys' questions as hostile at all but a couple of the responses to them definitely were. Online feminists have good reason to be wary of drive-bys but we could probably stand to relax our threshold a little bit.
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Dec 27, 2016 21:57
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I don't think anyone viewed it as hostile, just ignorant. "Why can't men call themselves feminists" is not a question that demonstrates any inherent interest or investment in feminist theory, it just seems like a "The kids won't let me in their clubhouse" thing. edit: On a reread I couldn't even figure out which of the responses would have been seen as hostile, so I have no idea where you're coming from. Vindicator fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 22:01
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Vindicator posted:To be fair, it's not hard to read it as a shitpost. It seems immediately abrasive, demonstrates a mistaken preconception, and indicates nothing about how you came to hold that belief. For real, though, who told you men couldn't be feminists? Nobody in particular, just me extrapolating the concept of allies based on what I've encountered of people using it
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Dec 27, 2016 22:03
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icantfindaname posted:Nobody in particular, just me extrapolating the concept of allies based on what I've encountered of people using it You extrapolated that men were in some way prohibited, or at least discouraged, from referring to themselves as feminists?
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Dec 27, 2016 22:04
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Vindicator posted:You extrapolated that men were in some way prohibited, or at least discouraged, from referring to themselves as feminists? The idea of "allies" as a defined category that includes people who aren't part of the minority group in question points that way yeah. Again, though, it seems I was wrong in that conception
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Dec 27, 2016 22:10
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FactsAreUseless posted:No, icantfindaname. He came in whining about something not based in real feminist discussion, but his own insecurities as a man. It has no place in a discussion of feminism. It does not contribute to the conversation. It isn't even really about feminism. Where but a discussion of feminism (Not this specific thread mind you, just spitballing here) would discussions of male insecurities and other issues arising from toxic masculinity go? The Usual Spaces for men are notably bad about it, likely by design.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:11
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Talmonis posted:Where but a discussion of feminism (Not this specific thread mind you, just spitballing here) would discussions of male insecurities and other issues arising from toxic masculinity go? The Usual Spaces for men are notably bad about it, likely by design. Feminism exists in order to advance gender equality. "I don't feel like I'm being adequately centered in this gender equality movement" seems to me to be a contradictory position to hold. If the concern is that spheres in which masculinity/toxic masculinity is prevalent do not address the concerns of men, then the solution seems to be to advocate to change that environment so that it better serves those within it. Take the spaces you have and make them feminist, and all that. Vindicator fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 22:15
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Can't men just...I don't know, swallow it? Get over themselves? Hemming and hawing about not feeling welcome or whatever seems like the height of weakness, and blindness, and exactly like all the white supremacists who believe that being criticized for their actions is as bad as racism. If these people haven't been reached yet, they're probably not going to be.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:26
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Cool, barely into page 2 and already the most pressing feminist issue is male feelings. Since icantfindname, who is on my ignore list for being a huge bigot, incidentally, has had his answer maybe he can go off and chew on it by himself and not make this thread about him any longer? Men on the internet have a habit of seeing feminism threads as female attention dispensers, and it would be cool if people didn't let that happen here. I am an activist in real life and one of the things I talk a lot about with people out there is concrete, achievable goals. With something as huge as patriarchy that can be hard, since it permeates everything and its causes and effects can be very hard to follow out. There's a kind of butterfly effect with societal biases - something as big as "why don't more women succeed in male-dominated fields?" is a river fed by tributaries so tiny people refuse to believe it could possibly matter, and get angry at the suggestion it does. Which is why I'd like to talk about the battlefront of my grandmother's generation of feminists, which has largely been forgotten by my own: Housework. Ask any man who lives with a wife or girlfriend how much housework he does, and he'll usually say "about half," but taking stocks of all the domestic tasks that get done, that's almost never the case. Frequently a man is barely contributing to the work of keeping the home running at all, yet may feel his share of the chores is incredibly burdensome and he's selfless for putting up with it. Feminist men can be some of the worst offenders of this, because they know men should pull their weight, but the hidden sexism of their upbringing and their subconscious keeps them from really seeing how much work is actually done and who does it. If you ask a man about a household chore he doesn't do, he invariably says it doesn't "need" to be done - his wife or girlfriend only does it because she's so "picky," the silly woman. Men tend to came the infrequent, showy tasks as their chores - cleaning the gutters might only need to be done once a year, and most importantly it's a concrete task with a satisfying finality when it's done. Not like laundry, dishes, wiping the countertops, vacuuming - a ceaseless grinding cycle of tasks that are never finished in the "don't have to do that again!" sense. I have two articles I hope any cohabitating man will read. There's going to be some inevitable defensiveness, hysteria at being criticized, challenged, asked to think something new. Please don't post that here, it's not unique or informative, it's just growing pains you have to power through before a new idea can take roots in your brain. Please also don't post to brag that you do, in fact, you'll have us know, contribute equally to the housework. Perhaps you even do more than the little lady! You're the one who needs to read this stuff most, because you're the one who doesn't even know all the work that needs to be done or who does it. Here's a classic feminist piece, the best response I've ever seen to the reflexive "but you're just better at it, sweetie!" response men have about the chores they don't feel like doing. The Politics of Housework Here's a blog post by a man who figured out the ingrained sexism he'd had regarding housework on his own. I haven't read the rest of his site, so if there's something impolitic in there I don't care. I like this post because he voices what I think is a pretty typical thought process men have about women "nagging" them about chores. The underlying assumption that poisons relationships and makes it impossible for men to see they're being sexist about chores is that women are always wrong and the things they want are stupid. You'll find this one lurking under a lot of sexism, really. It is nearly impossible to root out, because it's self-reinforcing. Men aren't being sexist when they assume women's thoughts are stupid and silly, they're just being level-headed and unbiased! Look how emotional this chick is getting when I tell her so, see, she was stupid and silly after all. Anyway. She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By the Sink I post these partly because men reading this thread in good faith might still have the impulse to whine "but what can I do?" You see us criticizing the structures of power, and you see yourself as powerless, and it's true. Odds are you're not a CEO cackling on the golf course about how no woman is ever going to make VP in your company, gat-dammit. But are you a man living with a woman who works just as hard as you, trying to succeed in a job just like you, who always has to put your dishes in the dishwasher for you because "who cares"? That's a drop of energy she has to burn and you don't, and those add up.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:33
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Talmonis posted:Where but a discussion of feminism (Not this specific thread mind you, just spitballing here) would discussions of male insecurities and other issues arising from toxic masculinity go? The Usual Spaces for men are notably bad about it, likely by design. Make a good one, I really think you specifically would be good at that. Like, I think about this a lot when I think about the long history of patriarchal bullshit - it was never all men building these structures, it was a few assholes and everyone else letting them get away with it. Make a good place for men to talk about the poo poo toxic masculinity calls them "fags" for feeling. I think it would be incredibly worthwhile and appreciated.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:35
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the white hand posted:Can't men just...I don't know, swallow it? Get over themselves? Hemming and hawing about not feeling welcome or whatever seems like the height of weakness, and blindness, and exactly like all the white supremacists who believe that being criticized for their actions is as bad as racism. I feel like comparing men who ask about terminology or their welcomeness in the movement, seemingly perfectly legitimate questions, to white supremacists, is probably a bad way to win public support in a purely utilitarian sense, and bespeaks a fundamental hostility and lack of good faith in dealing with the general public
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Dec 27, 2016 22:41
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icantfindaname posted:I feel like comparing men who ask about terminology or their welcomeness in the movement, seemingly perfectly legitimate questions, to white supremacists, is probably a bad way to win public support in a purely utilitarian sense, and bespeaks a fundamental hostility and lack of good faith in dealing with the general public Please don't start a slapfight about how feminism hurts your feelings and then try to apply it to the public at large. Stop doubling down on this crap, or get out.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:44
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icantfindaname posted:I feel like comparing men who ask about terminology or their welcomeness in the movement, seemingly perfectly legitimate questions, to white supremacists, is probably a bad way to win public support in a purely utilitarian sense, and bespeaks a fundamental hostility and lack of good faith in dealing with the general public This is a 'tone argument.' Now that we have given this argument a label which has a bad connotation, we don't actually have to address it. Next!
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Dec 27, 2016 22:44
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icantfindaname posted:I feel like comparing men who ask about terminology or their welcomeness in the movement, seemingly perfectly legitimate questions, to white supremacists, is probably a bad way to win public support in a purely utilitarian sense, and bespeaks a fundamental hostility and lack of good faith in dealing with the general public Now this? This is textbook shitposting. It wasn't a 'perfectly legitimate question', it was an ignorant question. And you had it answered. And now you're pivoting to "Someone used an analogy I find confronting". I'm going to follow Tiny Brontosaurus' lead now.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:50
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icantfindaname posted:I feel like comparing men who ask about terminology or their welcomeness in the movement, seemingly perfectly legitimate questions, to white supremacists, is probably a bad way to win public support in a purely utilitarian sense, and bespeaks a fundamental hostility and lack of good faith in dealing with the general public Get out. You're on my ignore list for your seething racism, so you're not actually fooling me that you came in here in good faith. You make yourself extraneous to every conversation by being the dense rear end in a top hat that you are.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:51
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icantfindaname posted:I feel like comparing men who ask about terminology or their welcomeness in the movement, seemingly perfectly legitimate questions, to white supremacists, is probably a bad way to win public support in a purely utilitarian sense, and bespeaks a fundamental hostility and lack of good faith in dealing with the general public Do you feel this makes you a good "feminist ally", to use your preferred terminology? It seems like you are getting a bit upset that feminists use different terminology than you first assumed. Wouldn't it be easier to just say "In that case, I'm proud to call myself a male feminist"?
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Dec 27, 2016 22:52
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silence_kit posted:This is a 'tone argument.' Now that we have given this argument a label which has a bad connotation, we don't actually have to address it. Incidentally this one's worthless too and should be on everyone's ignore list for doing exactly this kind of poo poo. Hysterical misogynist meltdown ahoy, don't say I didn't warn you. BarbarianElephant posted:Do you feel this makes you a good "feminist ally", to use your preferred terminology? It seems like you are getting a bit upset that feminists use different terminology than you first assumed. Wouldn't it be easier to just say "In that case, I'm proud to call myself a male feminist"? Stop it, you aren't going to logic him out of his personality disorder. Stop giving him attention.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:52
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stone cold posted:women's studies 101 questions Perhaps if you could say, "don't post unless you have read x, y, or z." Or even, "no asking a question before at least looking at the Google results for it."
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Dec 27, 2016 22:57
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Vindicator posted:Feminism exists in order to advance gender equality. "I don't feel like I'm being adequately centered in this gender equality movement" seems to me to be a contradictory position to hold. If the concern is that spheres in which masculinity/toxic masculinity is prevalent do not address the concerns of men, then the solution seems to be to advocate to change that environment so that it better serves those within it. Take the spaces you have and make them feminist, and all that. I agree actually. It's why I tried to disclaimer my question with "(not this thread)". I don't want this thread to be about it/us, so I'm sorry if I came off that way. We tend toward being self-centered and loud, myself included. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Make a good one, I really think you specifically would be good at that. Like, I think about this a lot when I think about the long history of patriarchal bullshit - it was never all men building these structures, it was a few assholes and everyone else letting them get away with it. Make a good place for men to talk about the poo poo toxic masculinity calls them "fags" for feeling. I think it would be incredibly worthwhile and appreciated. I'll see what I can do. I'm not terribly good at OP's, but I'll try to make one work. And your other post was great. I always feel like crap when I think about how much my wife does around the house in respect to my own. Most of us don't deserve the relationships we have.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:58
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Phyzzle posted:Perhaps if you could say, "don't post unless you have read x, y, or z." Or even, "no asking a question before at least looking at the Google results for it." I'm pretty sure the repeated mentions of educate yourself wasn't a thing either.  But on a serious note, I'll update the op when I'm not on my phone with something a bit more exhaustive.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:59
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Phyzzle posted:Perhaps if you could say, "don't post unless you have read x, y, or z." Or even, "no asking a question before at least looking at the Google results for it." You need to come into the thread well-educated on the proper theory, but don't assume that there is a feminist canon or majority consensus within the ideology. That'd be untoward.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:02
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silence_kit posted:You need to come into the thread well-educated on the proper theory, but don't assume that there is a feminist canon or majority consensus within the ideology. That'd be untoward.  with this passive aggressive poo poo.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:03
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The comment about how men overestimate how much housework they do reminded of the studies that show in discussion groups of men and women, men perceive women as talking much more than they actually do, so that when women speak something like 30% of the time, men will say they dominated the conversation (I can't find this particular study right now, so if someone could link it that would be awesome). Now like TB said, this is something even feminist men do; even if they know better we're all conditioned to have certain expectations about gender roles, and even the slightest hint that someone may be beginning to violate them can make men lose all sense of proportion, particularly when privileges are seemingly threatened. Also, fun housework story: over Christmas my 12 year old cousin saw his dad doing dishes and laughed and said he was doing "women's work." Now this is a kid who regularly spends time with my other cousin and her wife, who both have awesome careers and also do lots of farm work, repair work, and other tough stuff, etc.  Fortunately they overheard him say it, so guess who ended up doing dishes for everyone?
Sharkie fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 23:03
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icantfindaname posted:I feel like comparing men who ask about terminology or their welcomeness in the movement, seemingly perfectly legitimate questions, to white supremacists, is probably a bad way to win public support in a purely utilitarian sense, and bespeaks a fundamental hostility and lack of good faith in dealing with the general public As someone who's worked with both white supremacists and also had to deal with abusive spouses and such in other work, the rhetoric is actually very similar. Also gently caress you. Calls for moderation are the prime tactic for denying the oppressed their justifiable feelings of anger and rage.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:06
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Sharkie posted:The comment about how men overestimate how much housework they do reminded of the studies that show in discussion groups of men and women, men perceive women as talking much more than they actually do, so that when women speak something like 30% of the time, men will say they dominated the conversation (I can't find this particular study right now, so if someone could link it that would be awesome). Now like TB said, this is something even feminist men do; even if they know better we're all conditioned to have certain expectations about gender roles, and even the slightest hint that someone may be beginning to violate them can make men lose all sense of proportion, particularly when privileges are seemingly threatened. Yeah! A related thing is in business meetings, no matter how many men are, if there are more than two women they feel "outnumbered." A token is fine, they'll brag about it even, but by god that token better not have anybody in their corner. (From the sexist's perspective - of course in reality women are capable of disagreeing with each other, but sexists see the world as boys vs. girls and assume everyone else does too) Regarding "educate yourself" - It's really easy. All you have to do is, when you have a question, ask it and then say "here's what I've looked up so far." Asking "Can men be feminists or only allies?" would be perfectly fine if the person asking it had realized that might be a common question and looked up what people have had to say about it already. "I read this feminist essay, help me figure it out" is always great, seriously A+ on-topic positing. "Why do You Girls Always-" isn't, and just to head this off at the pass, neither is "Please tell me how not-sexist I am."
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Dec 27, 2016 23:12
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Cool, barely into page 2 and already the most pressing feminist issue is male feelings. Since icantfindname, who is on my ignore list for being a huge bigot, incidentally, has had his answer maybe he can go off and chew on it by himself and not make this thread about him any longer? Men on the internet have a habit of seeing feminism threads as female attention dispensers, and it would be cool if people didn't let that happen here. Thanks for the post - I don't cohabitate but this is a great thing to share with friends who do and are always complaining that there's nothing "actionable" for them on the matter of gender equality. Also guys for god's sake stop with the goddamn tone arguments and semantics bullshit, I swear to god it crops up on the first page of every goddamn feminism thread.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:15
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Sharkie posted:Also, fun housework story: over Christmas my 12 year old cousin saw his dad doing dishes and laughed and said he was doing "women's work." Now this is a kid who regularly spends time with my other cousin and her wife, who both have awesome careers and also do lots of farm work, repair work, and other tough stuff, etc. LOL that's perfect. That's how you fix broken baby men. No matter their size.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:21
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A big thing well-meaning men will do is brag that they do "anything their SO asks." Which sounds nice, but it's already an unequal division of labor because now only one person is looking at the house and taking stock of what needs to be done. Managing people is labor itself, and with household chores this can too easily slide into feeling like parenting the other person. A task isn't off someone's to-do list when they've assigned someone else to do it, it's off the list when it's done. In truly equal partnerships both people do chores when they need doing, so the other person doesn't even have to think about them. If you come home and there are dishes in the sink, that task can be yours, or hers and then yours (she asks you to do it), or wholly hers (you ignore them until she does them). Only one of those options is truly helpful.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:22
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Sharkie posted:The comment about how men overestimate how much housework they do reminded of the studies that show in discussion groups of men and women, men perceive women as talking much more than they actually do, so that when women speak something like 30% of the time, men will say they dominated the conversation (I can't find this particular study right now, so if someone could link it that would be awesome). I can't source the article, but I think a similar point came out of the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media. People, when asked to gauge the gender balance of a crowd scene, tend to estimate gender parity in the scene when women comprise only 17% of the extras. Crowd scenes with actual ~50-50 gender parity tend to be recognized as predominantly women. edit: Is this it? http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/08/more-women-but-not-nearly-enough/?_r=0 Vindicator fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 23:27
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:A big thing well-meaning men will do is brag that they do "anything their SO asks." Which sounds nice, but it's already an unequal division of labor because now only one person is looking at the house and taking stock of what needs to be done.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:27
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:... These are great links, thank you. If you are a man reading the thread, definitely read them if you haven't, preferably before posting (especially if it's to whine), and reflect on what connections there are with parts of your own life. Sexism and the patriarchy are less chains--because those would be easy to see and understand--and more like a thousand gossamer threads entangling everyone. Things like chores, mansplaining, dismissiveness, sexist jokes, catcalling, and defensiveness seem small when isolated, but are overwhelming when a daily part of life. Make a genuine attempt to understand a perspective that is not your own. Another thing I want to emphasize is, as men, we have a position of privileged and power. We're used to it, but it is unearned. But you can use that undeserved power to deal with the sexist poo poo that happens every day. Rephrase what a woman said at a meeting and attribute it to her so her voice isn't lost. Call out the idiot making sexist jokes so a woman doesn't have to. And listen. Really, actually, listen. FactsAreUseless posted:As a guy, I legitimately think most men - including myself - have no idea how to do this. It's just not something that we were taught how to do growing up, and without that knowledge a lot of men don't even realize it's not something they're doing.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:38
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Well, as a man, I... Actually, I've been thinking about the need for a reading list, which is sort of unusual in most threads. I think it comes down to the perception of authority and mansplaining. Usually there is an assumption that posters know what they're talking about, but I suppose that isn't a given if the setup is specifically women explaining things to men, and men just sort of assume that having lived through a good half of the major genders makes them a credible authority on the other half. And therefore, women who are genuine authorities on the topic have to be brought up at the start instead of just referred to on as as-needed basis. Jokes on them, though. Men who won't listen to an average woman talking about being a woman probably won't listen to a Ph. D. in womanology either.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:44
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I realize we've moved on but I wanted to adress this:falcon2424 posted:I think you're right that it's about involvement. Feminism is an ideology. But it's also an activist movement. I do activist stuff as well but I still refer to myself as an ally rather than a feminist, because men who feel like they are part of a movement have the tendency to coopt it and take over. This happens even in feminist meetings, well-meaning guys will talk over everyone and, in their (again, well-meaning) attempt to "make things right" will take charge and try to lead the group.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:57
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Please also don't post to brag that you do, in fact, you'll have us know, contribute equally to the housework. Perhaps you even do more than the little lady! You're the one who needs to read this stuff most, because you're the one who doesn't even know all the work that needs to be done or who does it. So here's a thing I wrote from the Second Sex summaries, about an early chapter in Simone de Beauvoir's book. I know there was more relevant content about chores and household work (something like "you can't be existentially fulfilled keeping a house clean because you will never accomplish this task. It's always dirty again") but I must not have gotten round to that chapter. Note the bourgeois class themes in here. There's a reason the buzzword is Marxist-Feminist Dialectic quote:if a woman will merely stay in the house and kitchen, wear uncomfortable clothes, and never show any signs of independence, they will be honored and respected. Again the imagery is one of royalty. A queen of the house. “Of course, men must give in to women in all irrelevant circumstances, yielding them first place,” [129] Beauvoir snipes back. “Women must not carry heavy burdens…they are readily spared all painful tasks and worries: at the same time this relieves them of all responsibility. It is hoped that, thus duped, seduced by the ease of their condition, they will accept the role of mother and housewife to which they are being confined.” [129-130]. It works. It is drilled into the bourgeois woman that if they didn’t cooperate with the strict family structure, they would be “condemned to work” [130]. The bourgeois “clings to the chains because she clings to class privilege” [130]. “She feels no solidarity with working-class women: she feels closer to her husband than to a woman textile worker. She makes his interests her own” [130] lest she lose her class standing completely. Page references from this version of The Second Sex Tiny Brontosaurus posted:A big thing well-meaning men will do is brag that they do "anything their SO asks." Which sounds nice, but it's already an unequal division of labor because now only one person is looking at the house and taking stock of what needs to be done. Managing people is labor itself And emotional labor is labor too. Remembering to send gifts, thinking of what would be good gifts in the first place, thank yous, soothing over hurt feelings between others, all of it. Jessica Valenti got poo poo for the bad title of her "No I won't wrap the Christmas presents" article but it made an excellent point, that women are expected to do a lot of extra work to make the holidays so drat magical for everyone else. botany posted:I realize we've moved on but I wanted to adress this:
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Dec 28, 2016 00:10
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botany posted:I realize we've moved on but I wanted to adress this: Are you so insecure that you have to refer to yourself as an ally to put women at ease that you're one of the Good Ones? What is the meaning of this? Do you not trust yourself to reign in your natural male pushiness? Deified Data fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 00:17
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FactsAreUseless posted:As a guy, I legitimately think most men - including myself - have no idea how to do this. It's just not something that we were taught how to do growing up, and without that knowledge a lot of men don't even realize it's not something they're doing. How would they? It's never been an issue, and if men also don't have the same standards for how a house should be cleaned you get the "it doesn't seem dirty to me" issue. Boys don't grow up constantly being told that it's work they need to know how to do like girls are, and they don't grow up seeing other men take care of it. It takes a lot of time to learn, there's a definite curve. Also, having had guy roommates, it's not like things get more evenly divided with men. poo poo just doesn't get taken care of as well. It's one of those places where we're straight up not preparing men for the real world by what we tell boys - or don't tell them, or don't even know we're telling them. That's very true, and I think that this, like a lot of feminist issues, is going to have to be solved in a generational way. Hypotheticals get too clunky, so here's how I really see things in my own family. My husband has older parents in a marriage that is very egalitarian for their generation, but noticeably different that my much younger, political activist parents. My dad read "The Politics of Housework" before I was born, and he and my mom have had serious discussions and occasional fights about ingrained sexism in housework. Thus my dad makes a very conscious effort to contribute, and was the primary cook when I was growing up, and in turn my brother is subconsciously much more aware of what needs doing and much more participatory than most men his age, to the point where he can't stand a typical fratty male roommate situation, because as you said frequently dudes just plain don't clean things. My husband, in contrast, grew up seeing his dad go straight into the den after getting home from work, and straight into the living room after dinner. Both parents worked, which to my father-in-law makes them a radically feminist couple, but there was never any suggestion that dad might do more around the house than take care of the lawn and cars, and determine when it was time to call a repairman (his wife would be the one placing the calls and taking time off work to let them in). My husband never saw his father helping around the house, and while his mom is aware that the concept of "women's work" is bullshit and made him do the same chores as his sister, he hit adulthood with that learned helplessness thing so many men do, where they just shrug and dawdle and say "you're better at it" until the women in their lives give up and do it themselves in exasperation. I don't play that poo poo, so our first year living together had more than a few fights. It is true that learning things from the outside in will never be as effective as truly internalizing it. Right now his participation in the household work is entirely dependent on his memory. He has to actively remind himself to scan the house and check the status of the things he's memorized need doing, and when he does that it's great, but I hope if we have a son watching this example will help it be more instinctive for him, and we can keep making that progress so maybe next century this issue's finally settled.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:22
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Deified Data posted:Are you so insecure that you have to refer to yourself as an ally to put women at ease that you're one of the Good Ones? What is the meaning of this? Do you not trust yourself to reign in your natural male pushiness? This is a lovely worthless post and you should leave.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:25
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Deified Data posted:Are you so insecure that you have to refer to yourself as an ally to put women at ease that you're one of the Good Ones? What is the meaning of this? Do you not trust yourself to reign in your natural male pushiness? Get out of here, thank you for your time.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:26
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Not a throwaway snipe, I legitimately want to know why that guy contributes if he doesn't trust himself to do it in good faith.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:36
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Hobologist posted:Usually there is an assumption that posters know what they're talking about, Just lol if you think this on this website. This is why the cries of 'educate thyself' in this thread are so out of place and unlike every other topic on this forum. Talmonis posted:
Instead of the thinly veiled passive aggressive chorus of 'educate yourself!' whenever the opinions/questions Are Not Right, this thread probably should put a creed stating the opinions posters must have and questions they must not ask into the opening post that posters in this thread have to swear to to be able to post in this thread. If a poster in the thread trespasses against the creed, they get probated. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 28, 2016 00:39
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