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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Are white people wearing dreadlocks a feminist issue? Because I really hope not, otherwise it sounds like this thread for feminism is more of a tool for social control rather then something worthwhile like believing all people are equal and should be treated equally. it's certainly an issue of basic sense
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Dec 28, 2016 01:43
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Hi, I made a thread for discussing the impacts of patriarchy and so forth on men, for men's roles in feminism, etc. so those issues can stop derailing this thread. Please take all this discussion to the other thread so men don't take over a thread about feminism, which is decidedly not feminist! http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3803186
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Dec 28, 2016 01:47
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Are white people wearing dreadlocks a feminist issue? Because I really hope not, otherwise it sounds like this thread for feminism is more of a tool for social control rather then something worthwhile like believing all people are equal and should be treated equally. BBG, notorious troll, is a whiteboii who wears dreadlocks. I don't think you're posting in good faith, though, so get out.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:48
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:it's certainly an issue of basic sense If you mean dreadlocks are terribly unsanitary and shouldn't be worn at all, sure I can accept that position, I disagree, but I understand. If you mean dreadlocks should only be worn by certain kinds of people I'll call you a bigot. Either way, it seems like they intersect feminism in the "people are equal" way.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:49
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Hush and shush.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:50
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Get out you loving idiot marxoteen, nobody is ever going to take your bait no matter how many times you ask it or how many threads you try to hijack to do it. Can you only reach arousal if you've scolded a woman for owning a Beyonce album or what?  I don't know why you hate me so much. I stopped posting in the last thread because it was unrelated. Now you're bullying me out of this thread even though it's a general Feminism thread. For the record: I'm not trolling. I'm not baiting.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:50
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Not to interrupt the budding flame war about the pressing issue of white people wearing dreadlocks but I have a slightly different topic, relating to the recent election, that I'd like to offer up for discussion: Unarguably Feminism has seen a meteoric rise in the public consciousness over the last 5-10 years (Wikipedia has Fourth Wave Feminism starting in 2008). Yet, in the recent election, when faced with two candidates who couldn't have possibly been more starkly contrasted on feminist issues if they played the hero/villain roles from an 80's Saturday morning cartoon, the candidate who had to be the most unrepentant and openly anti-feminist person to run for office in recent history, who was dogged by numerous female allegations of sexual assault, who was caught on tape essentially confessing to sexually assaulting women, managed to win the election. Additionally, while Clinton won the majority of women voters, in what is truly awe-inspiring, more white women actually voted for Trump, the candidate who could unironically add "pussy grabbing" to his campaign platform, than voted for Clinton. Trying not to lock people into being forced to answer a specific question here, so I'll essentially just ask: what the gently caress? What do people have to say about this? EDIT: vvv I know, however that's why I tried to avoid asking that specific question ("how did this happen") because I'm driving at having, not only other related questions be asked and answered, but also for a little more analysis of the state of the of the country, feminism as a movement, and how the two relate to one another and the election. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 01:51
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There's a pretty simple answer to that: The racism and bigotry of those women outweighed their distaste for Trump. The logic they used was "Trump may be a grabby pervert, but I'm not going to be around him. Meanwhile, he'll get rid of all the muslims and Make America Great Again!!!"
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Dec 28, 2016 01:54
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Are white people wearing dreadlocks a feminist issue? Because I really hope not, otherwise it sounds like this thread for feminism is more of a tool for social control rather then something worthwhile like believing all people are equal and should be treated equally. People horrifically misuse the term 'intersectionality', but the idea could apply here. The core idea is that women don't face a single set of stereotypes and pressures. Soujourner Truth is pointing out that stereotypes like, "Women are Weak" aren't universal. Really, the stereotype was that white women were weak. Black women weren't helped into carriages or expected to faint. She's pointing out that black woman's experience isn't just "white woman" discrimination plus "black man" discrimination. It can be its own thing. There's tons of horrible messaging out there about black women's hair. That's as much a feminist issue as the "white women are physically weak" stereotype. So, it's totally plausible that some messaging about dreadlocks is a feminist thing.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:56
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I Killed GBS posted:There's a pretty simple answer to that: The racism and bigotry of those women outweighed their distaste for Trump. Right, I mean this is a great example of the intersectionality of white privilege, and middle-class privilege overruling any sort of feminist impulses on the part of these women. It bums me out, to be honest. 
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Dec 28, 2016 02:01
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I Killed GBS posted:There's a pretty simple answer to that: The racism and bigotry of those women outweighed their distaste for Trump. In addition to this, many of those women come from very conservative areas where women are expected to follow their husbands. So there is immense social pressure not to have separate political views.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:04
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stone cold posted:BBG, notorious troll, is a whiteboii who wears dreadlocks. I am familiar with bbg. However what I don't like is the idea of "feminist policing." The implication that you can't be a "real" feminist if you do X, or you don't do "Y" where x and y are strictly personal decisions. You saw it in earlier aspects of feminism where a stay at home wife was anti-feminist. Or where prostitutes were excluded from feminism for whatever reason. Or just recently in the presidential election where not supporting the correct candidate meant you weren't a feminist. Feminism isn't a club. It's a way of thinking, and it can coexist with a lot of lovely opinions, like racism or capitalism.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:04
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Frijolero posted:
First impressions matter a lot, and your first impression was a lovely one. Your post communicated hostility and generalized skepticism. "Hi, I don't agree with you, so convince me". TB is unwilling to give you the benefit of the doubt, and you are not owed it, nor are you owed an apology. I'd recommend you wait for the thread to settle a bit, and so some lurking. The conversation will come around, and you'll learn things. One of the things I've learned over my experience with feminist and anti-racist action is that my middle class white upbringing emphasized neither patience nor empathy. Your questions will be addressed, if you look for them, but accept that your interests are not going to be prioritized. Cool it, and accept that you pissed someone off on the Internet. Listening more, and talking less, is something that proletarians, women, ethnic and racial minorities, and queer people are all forced to learn in certain situations. I invite men itt to try it out too. It's not always a bad thing.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:05
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Oh goddamnit, I just realized you're Powercrazy. No wonder you're already trying to poo poo up this thread.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:07
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-Blackadder- posted:Trying not to lock people into being forced to answer a specific question here, so I'll essentially just ask: what the gently caress? What do people have to say about this? Not a Trump supporter. Having talked to some, I'd expect that a Trump-supporting woman would argue: (1) A vote for Hillary would still put a rapist into the White House. (2) Trump's was bragging about his fame. He was saying that he 'could' grab women, in the sense that they'd let him. Not in the sense that his lawyer wife would force them to settle the assault case out of court. (3) The country is in such terrible position that the president's policies matter much more than their personal life. I don't really agree with these. But conservatives work from different facts than I do. The fact that republican women rationalized their support for the republican candidate wasn't a huge surprise.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:08
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:I am familiar with bbg. However what I don't like is the idea of "feminist policing." What does that have anything do with getting a burn in on BBG? Guess what, please don't turn feminism thread into white dreadlocks thread, tyvm. None of this has anything to do with what we're talking about and please do not try to police the women in this thread, thank you. Also, if you actually took the time to read things like say [i]The Feminine Mystique[/] by Betty Friedan, you'd understand that the lamentations were not directed at stay-at-home wives, but at the institutions that kept them subjugated. Also, guess what, there is such a thing as sex-positive feminism, where sex workers and pornography were reclaimed in a sense, and it was and still is heavily debated. Feminism is not one way of thinking, a monolith, and if you can't even bother to try to educate yourself (via the links in the OP) perhaps you should go post elsewhere. e: misread your post a bit, fixed a space
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Dec 28, 2016 02:13
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falcon2424 posted:People horrifically misuse the term 'intersectionality', but the idea could apply here. Sure I'll buy this, but dreadlocks aren't exclusively a black woman thing, hence why I see that particular line of attack bizarre. As far as intersectionality between racism and feminism, I am well aware of the out of touch "champions" of feminism completely dismissing other groups, such as Black Lives Matter, or DAPL protests.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:14
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Sure I'll buy this, but dreadlocks aren't exclusively a black woman thing, hence why I see that particular line of attack bizarre. Can you actually cite some examples that are worth discussing? Because you're honestly hijacking the discussion and trying to shut feminism down in all its forms. Have you considered getting out?
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Dec 28, 2016 02:15
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falcon2424 posted:I don't really agree with these. But conservatives work from different facts than I do. The fact that republican women rationalized their support for the republican candidate wasn't a huge surprise. I think this is a good point and it's something I was thinking about in another thread. I think voters who strongly identify with their chosen party and who routinely vote along party lines, (essentially non-moderate non-switch voters) all really rationalize support for their candidate. We do it on both sides. When we get stuck with a candidate who isn't all that likable or who is actually pretty lovely on some issues (ex: Wall Street) we hold our nose and vote for them. At no point do we consider switching to the other party just because our candidate was bad or even because they won and then went on to do a not very good job in office. We just write them off and hope the next candidate our party puts forth does a better job of representing our views on the issues. I think this is a big reason why Accelerationism doesn't work. Because Republicans will never stop voting Republican just because their candidates keep running the country into the ground. They'll just rationalize that that particular candidate was a lovely Republican and hope the GOP puts up a better one next time. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 02:23
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Re: white women who voted Trump, of course everyone else is right in that racism and white privilege were the main motivators. But one thing I noticed in women defending it was a kind of hopelessness or despair about how men are expected to behave: "it's no big deal because that's just how men are." When you grow up around lovely, misogynistic men, and live in a place where that's accepted, it's much easier to rationalize away. Now, does this mean the women saying this would tolerate a son or a husband acting like this? Who knows. But boys will be boys rhetoric is a framework that supports all kinds of heinous poo poo.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:28
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stone cold posted:Can you actually cite some examples that are worth discussing? Because you're honestly hijacking the discussion and trying to shut feminism down in all its forms. Literally every single post you've made has been telling the people to get out. It's telling that you are exactly the wrong kind of person to discuss feminist issues with and yet you made this thread. Guess what? Feminism doesn't need gate keepers. Also if you are not aware of the media framing and the political hostility to both DaPL and BLM maybe you should listen more and tell people to "get out" less. As far as discussion goes other then exclusionary feminism that I mentioned earlier there isn't really anything wrong modern feminism. After-all it's pretty easy to understand and support. What are the major disagreements these days?
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Dec 28, 2016 02:35
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Feminism doesn't need you to come in and poo poo all over everything either, Powercrazy, and yet here you are, insisting on doing it.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:38
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On the completely different topic of depictions of women in places you wouldn't expect it, I played BF1 recently and thought it was pretty cool that they threw a woman into the final episode and that was she was actually based on a real person. Most people don't really know that about WW1 (or 2, really). The Russians had female soldiers and pilots in both conflicts, partly out of desperation for warm bodies to throw at the enemy. I was reading about the WASPs recently. Women who were qualified commercial pilots when Pearl Harbor happened and who applied to take over non-combat roles since they were barred from actual warfighting. Their logic was that it'd free up more male pilots for active frontline duty. The unit only took the best of the best. About 5% of applicants got accepted. Seems like it's begging for a modern blockbuster adaptation because hey, Red Tails happened. The job had its risks and a couple dozen of them died. They'd help out piloting prototype jet aircraft which were extremely buggy and wonky at the time so that killed a few of them. The other issue was that they'd fly tugs that pulled an unmanned target for live fire practice. It wasn't unheard of for the inexperienced trainees to mistake the tug for the target. Some of them died that way, many of them had to bail out of crippled planes more than actual combat pilots did. The lovely thing is that because they weren't active duty and technically civil servants they weren't eligible for military honors or benefits. IIRC in the late 70's Congress finally extended all that to living WASP veterans but many of them didn't live to see it.  -Blackadder- posted:Trying not to lock people into being forced to answer a specific question here, so I'll essentially just ask: what the gently caress? What do people have to say about this? Basically what falcon2424. It was about different priorities. Most of them were dumb poo poo like "I don't want to admit that the jerbs aren't ever coming back, tell me a comforting lie daddy." I didn't personally jump in the Trumpster fire but I do know Iraq veterans and their relatives who lost limbs and/or friends in the war zone and to PTSD suicide after coming home that voted for him. Clinton held a stated desire to establish a no-fly zone with an explicit willingness to shoot down a nuclear power's air force. I don't really feel like anyone's qualified to question that specific rationale for voting against her when it's coming from someone who's lost a kid or close friend to that sorta thing. DeusExMachinima fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 02:50
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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What exactly is the point of this thread? Don't we already have like six threads for Tiny Brontosaurus to play Activist Empress in?
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Dec 28, 2016 02:51
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Literally every single post you've made has been telling the people to get out. It's telling that you are exactly the wrong kind of person to discuss feminist issues with and yet you made this thread. Holy poo poo you are terrible. I am a BLM activist and you absolutely may not invoke me and my struggle for your bullshit hysterical whining that a feminist conversation is happening. Go gently caress yourself and get the gently caress out you ignorant piece of poo poo.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:53
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:What exactly is the point of this thread? Don't we already have like six threads for Tiny Brontosaurus to play Activist Empress in? What is the point of the feminist thread, questions the neckbeard. Who, indeed, he thinks to himself, is John Galt?
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Dec 28, 2016 02:53
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stone cold posted:What is the point of the feminist thread, questions the neckbeard. Who, indeed, he thinks to himself, is John Galt? Oh Christ you actually think this is a good zinger, don't you?
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Dec 28, 2016 02:54
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Literally every single post you've made has been telling the people to get out. It's telling that you are exactly the wrong kind of person to discuss feminist issues with and yet you made this thread. Nope, sorry, I've made other posts, thanks. And yeah, maybe you should actually cite things to back up your spurious claims. Clearly judging by the fact that we're on page 4 and are getting trolled, we need a gatekeeper, I created this thread to have a place to discuss feminism. Again, we're not here to DO YOUR GODDAMN HOMEWORK.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:55
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Personally, I find the instant influx of dudes rushing to tell us how we shouldn't have a thread about feminism is an indication of the fact that this forum still has serious issues with misogyny.
I Killed GBS fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 02:57
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I am not sure what conversation these "trolls" are interrupting if all you're gonna do is continue to respond to them and prove them right. DEM made this long on topic post on this very page and it is being ignored, for instance
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Dec 28, 2016 02:58
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stone cold posted:Nope, sorry, I've made other posts, thanks.  it you (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 28, 2016 03:00
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Playing your hand a little early there aren't you
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Dec 28, 2016 03:03
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Holy poo poo you are terrible. I am a BLM activist and you absolutely may not invoke me and my struggle for your bullshit hysterical whining that a feminist conversation is happening. Go gently caress yourself and get the gently caress out you ignorant piece of poo poo.  You are not the arbiter of who can "invoke" a movement you entitled piece of poo poo. BLM isn't about you. It's about forcing racist politicians to finally pay attention to the damage their "tough on crime" dogwhistle policies have cause since the 90's. It's not a safety pin you wear on your online persona, and much like feminism it's not a "club" you should join for brownie points. Its also not the subject of this thread, so unless there something specific you want to debate and/or discuss re:feminism, I'll leave it there.
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Dec 28, 2016 03:03
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^You're on ignore, cry and mash poo poo into your hair by your lonesome. Imagine this poo poo, but in real life, every day at your job, in your home, when you walk down the street, and you'll begin to understand why women decided to fight for change. I'm sure our edgelord friends here are just mumbly neckbeards in real life, but the world is still full of men who get violently angry that a woman might look them in the eye and disagree with them. Which is why it's important to speak up not only for yourself but for the people who can't speak up for themselves.
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Dec 28, 2016 03:04
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Sharkie posted:Re: white women who voted Trump, of course everyone else is right in that racism and white privilege were the main motivators. But one thing I noticed in women defending it was a kind of hopelessness or despair about how men are expected to behave: "it's no big deal because that's just how men are." When you grow up around lovely, misogynistic men, and live in a place where that's accepted, it's much easier to rationalize away. Now, does this mean the women saying this would tolerate a son or a husband acting like this? Who knows. But boys will be boys rhetoric is a framework that supports all kinds of heinous poo poo. Well, I think it's that framework, the internalized misogyny, and the power differentials that tell you to keep your head down and agree when you may know that way of thinking is wrong, until you start agreeing out of habit and survival.
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Dec 28, 2016 03:05
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Tir McDohl posted:I am not sure what conversation these "trolls" are interrupting if all you're gonna do is continue to respond to them and prove them right. I have him on ignore because of his racist screeds in other threads.
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Dec 28, 2016 03:08
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Yo Powercrazy, if you want something with a feminist bent to discuss we could discuss how defenders of pedophilia actively promote patriarchal power dynamics by trying to justify the over-reaching sexualization of traditional "youth" signifiers in society. Men already have an implicit belief in their natural entitlement to women's bodies, particularly if they are of an age deemed sexually acceptable, so the extension of such acceptability to children, particularly young girls, is a very big problem. That might be an interesting topic to discuss.
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Dec 28, 2016 03:18
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Rush Limbo posted:Yo Powercrazy, if you want something with a feminist bent to discuss we could discuss how defenders of pedophilia actively promote patriarchal power dynamics by trying to justify the over-reaching sexualization of traditional "youth" signifiers in society. Men already have an implicit belief in their natural entitlement to women's bodies, particularly if they are of an age deemed sexually acceptable, so the extension of such acceptability to children, particularly young girls, is a very big problem. Seems like a lot of projection on your part tbqh. But yea sentencing disparity in the legal system between men and women is at least tangentially related to your creepily specific concerns, so can we discuss that instead?
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Dec 28, 2016 03:31
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stone cold posted:Well, I think it's that framework, the internalized misogyny, and the power differentials that tell you to keep your head down and agree when you may know that way of thinking is wrong, until you start agreeing out of habit and survival. Oh yeah. It's sad but I can completely understand how a woman ends up having that attitude out of the need for emotional survival. Like how of course some of the women saying that were surely victims of similar assaults.
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Dec 28, 2016 03:46
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I think a big thing about Trump, any aspect of his success, is that he was just more than we were prepared for. You can build a ten-foot floodwall but if a twenty-foot wave comes you're hosed. The things he said and did were so outrageous that our usual process of tut-tutting in the press wasn't sufficient. We couldn't create a sense of scale to illustrate how much worse he was than a normal candidate, especially to conservative voters who are used to hearing everyone's Stalin-Osama-Hitler. Most people don't have a good grasp of consent. They only comprehend sex crimes as a man having sex with someone he wasn't supposed to - either adultery or a property crime. So they can't really understand why Trump's pussy-grabbing was different than Clinton's consensual sex with Monica Lewinsky, which was bandied about in the press as the most perverted evil thing ever done in human history. You heard it from everyone, Republicans and Democrats alike. "Both sides are bad" is the sophisticated political opinion to have, showing you're above petty partisanship. And since we've been mature enough to admit that both sides are bad, why are you libs yelling at me about my side's badness? Yeah Trump molested women but Clinton got a blow job so what's the big deal? One of the reasons sex-positivity is a big deal in feminism even though it makes the marxoteens screech with fury is that a world that can't imagine women ever desire sex is a world where women are not safe. There's no way to explain that a woman didn't want sex if your worldview tells you women never want sex. That reduces rape to a question of whether the woman "belonged" to the man or not. Recognizing and learning to articulate your desire helps you articulate the lack of it too.
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Dec 28, 2016 03:56
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