|
Sharkie posted:The comment about how men overestimate how much housework they do reminded of the studies that show in discussion groups of men and women, men perceive women as talking much more than they actually do, so that when women speak something like 30% of the time, men will say they dominated the conversation (I can't find this particular study right now, so if someone could link it that would be awesome). Now like TB said, this is something even feminist men do; even if they know better we're all conditioned to have certain expectations about gender roles, and even the slightest hint that someone may be beginning to violate them can make men lose all sense of proportion, particularly when privileges are seemingly threatened. Anecdotally, I recall during one of the Presidential debates I thought afterwards that maybe Clinton really had had more speaking time than Trump, like he kept whining. The stats came out very quickly and turns out it was about equal, just as she claimed. I'd like to think I only thought that because listening to him is such a loving chore thanks to his incoherent rambling that I just tuned half of it out, but it's probably some sexism that is deeply rooted in there.  TB has spoken about the housework issue in other threads and it's interesting to me because, well, yeah like FactsAreUseless says, it can be really hard to know what even needs doing when you've been raised in the fairly typical household. My fiance and I live in different countries but we've had a couple of long-term visits which has been cohabiting more than vacation, and I've happily adopted some chores, done whatever else she asks, and done stuff that only needs done once in a long time. I'm not saying that with the intent of saying I'm a good feminist and treating my partner properly, but almost the opposite; I have little idea whether what I'm doing actually is a reasonable division. I've tried to tally it up because fundamentally I want us to have a fair partnership (plus, she's the one with a job, I figure me taking care of the home front is a pretty fair exchange) and I don't want to have her doing more than she should be - but it's really tough to figure out what I might be straight up overlooking. Next year we should be moving in together so I'll be able to sit down and actually talk to her about it, but as was said even that makes the assumptions of placing her on the spot and organizing things. She's likely to have concerns about being seen as a 'nag', like Defenestration says. I have no trouble with her being in charge as such, but I don't want to give her even more work, especially as her mental health means making decisions or telling people to do stuff is decidedly not something she enjoys. Trying to unpick things so deeply rooted gets pretty tricky, and it's a very good example of how subtly pernicious issues within misogyny, racism, etc., can be. Like that Must Be This Tall To Ride article says, it can seem incredibly small and superficial and even petty, when actually it can be very important as well very consequential, if men and women have been conditioned to approach things in different ways.
|
#
¿
Dec 28, 2016 00:43
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 15, 2024 02:39 |
|
|
Thanks for those recommendations, I'll give them a look 
|
|
#
¿
Dec 28, 2016 00:55
|
|
|
Defenestration posted:My friend has a saying, it goes "White Man, Sit Down." In fairness to me, the brilliance of my opinions has nothing to do with me being a man and everything to do with me being me. A space denied to me is a sin; a conversation I am not privy to is sacrilege; a thought not reported to me is a crime.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 28, 2016 23:16
|
|
|
To take people in good faith who probably shouldn't be for a moment, I think at least some of the tension comes from the general expectations of a forum like this. Does a thread about [x] mean for any and all aspects of [x]? Or is it about a specific part? Is it for people who are advanced and familiar with the topic or anyone? By way of a bad comparison, a goon who just got Witcher 3 for Christmas and wanders into the Witcher megathread in games to ask "Hey how do I witch?" might get a couple of people jeering at them for not reading the OP but they're also going to get pointers and probably links to more thorough stuff. I'm not saying this in an effort to defend shitposters or people making bad-faith arguments, but I can see where at least some people assume the thread will be open to all and proceed thence to ask something that topic regulars have already answered 153,000 times.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 28, 2016 23:45
|
|
|
botany posted:Feminism is not a video game. It was just the first thing that came to mind, it was not intended to be a perfect like-for-like equivalence. Thus "bad comparison". e; and yeah to stress, I don't think it's a bad thing at all to have a more advanced discussion where people less informed can watch and, hopefully, put in with actually useful comments and questions now and again. I'd like to think my fairly sophomoric post about chores and stuff fits into that designation (and note that the supposedly unreasonable TB had no problems giving me some more info and thoughts in a friendly and helpful manner, maybe actual good faith questions don't upset people  ). I was just (perhaps pointlessly) suggesting a small group of people are failing to read the OP, but are otherwise asking stuff in good faith, not really as a point for anyone to act on but just musing about how threads go the way they do. Anyway we're deep in talking about talking instead of talking about feminism so I'll shut up, just wanted to be clear that if I'm saying anything stupid, assume stupidity over malice.
Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Dec 29, 2016 |
|
#
¿
Dec 29, 2016 00:45
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:It's not a cost/benefit calculation. So many people simply feel a woman who takes off work to have a kid doesn't deserve or shouldn't have the job, with varying emphasis on taking off work or having a kid. It's about a (hateful) idea of right and wrong, not some sort of efficiency measure. lol yes it is, welcome to capitalism.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 31, 2016 01:51
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:I'm not saying that people aren't loving over women when given a financial incentive to do so; I'm saying people will gently caress over women even when there are financial incentives to not do so. Even if you can show airtight proof that hiring women who have not ruled out having a child or maternity leave policies are 100% net goods for efficiency in both the short and long term, women will still often get hosed over because employers will favor their deep-seated ideas about how parenting and work should work over their own financial interest. I concede the point - I was overly hasty and flippant. I suppose that does lead into a broader question about how different systems interact to cause increasing (or at least unique) problems, but Colin Mockery's already posting some interesting stuff on that and anyway I'm too tired and not well enough informed to have much to contribute. Rush Limbo posted:Surely, my friend, you have spent enough time in the UKMT to know that there's no particular reason why it can't be both a cost/benefit analysis and an ideology. This is fair enough as well. Or perhaps another way to state it would be that the ideology can be a formidable part of the cost/benefit analysis; I'm reminded of how stores in the Deep South would often find it economically unwise to cater to black customers, even though their dollars are as good as anyone's, because you could incur boycotts (or worse, like outright arson) from your white customer base by doing so.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 31, 2016 02:54
|
|
|
Look! A Horse! posted:you don't have feminism on your...continent? Presumably their continent is not one where legalization of sex work is even being tackled?
|
|
#
¿
Dec 31, 2016 16:17
|
|
|
TZer0 posted:An interesting read I found a while back - a condensed document of a thread on metafilter about emotional labour and male privilege. Thank you for linking to this; it's enlightening to see just how lovely some guys are, and it's also helping me hone in on areas I'm probably not doing my best as well. I struggle with understanding the attitude that simultaneously holds emotional labor is women's stuff so we don't really need to care about it, but that it's so intensely difficult and terrible and why won't the mean women just let us alone? I mean one or the other, yeah, but it's a special synthesis of privileged and  right here.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 2, 2017 20:39
|
|
|
Delving into the stuff women are expected to do that goes unrecognized a bit more, I just came across this interesting article that really highlights just how much of a burden those chores can be, not just in and of themselves, but in the sheer time they take up and in the way they break up the day for women and create a situation where even if, over the course of a day, a woman could reasonably be said to have two hours to 'herself', that it comes in ten minutes here, fifteen there, and is always contingent on some other issue not arising. To say nothing of the fact that much of what is supposedly personal time is still, in fact, devoted to someone else, be it the husband, the kids, whatever. http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/health-and-wellbeing/wellbeing/brigid-schulte-why-time-is-a-feminist-issue-20150309-13zimc Here's the part that stood out particularly to me; quote:I came to learn that women have never had a history or culture of leisure. (Unless you were a nun, one researcher later told me.) That from the dawn of humanity, high status men, removed from the drudge work of life, have enjoyed long, uninterrupted hours of leisure. And in that time, they created art, philosophy, literature, they made scientific discoveries and sank into what psychologists call the peak human experience of flow. It's a factor I'd never really considered. I mean, we think of anything prior to the 20th century as unending drudgery for almost all, but the few who did manage to escape that were almost entirely men, so of course now when we look back it's men who are the historical figures in almost every field. We're the only ones ever afforded the opportunity to pursue those things. And then that becomes ammo for misogynists today, to claim men have been the achievers, women the supporters.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 3, 2017 03:34
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 15, 2024 02:39 |
|
|
If people in this thread want a little bit of good and positive news, have an article about Zambia. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-38490513 Short version is that women in Zambia are allowed to take one day off, per month, essentially to deal with issues related to their period. The required notice is very short (The article isn't specific but it looks like it's basically call up on the morning) and there aren't really any requirements except that a woman give said notice. That said the loose language of the law seems to have created some confusion about what is an acceptable reason and what isn't, but despite that (and the opposition from some parts who worry about 'productivity') it looks like a drat good idea to me. I've seen periods leave women bedridden and I'm drat glad I don't have them; it seems pretty reasonable to me to let women take a day off for it, and for my part I'm fully supportive of a law that allows women to judge for themselves when they might want to call such a day even if it does leave some unpredictability for employers to deal with.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 4, 2017 04:34
|
|