Like so many waves eroding the cliffs of the patriarchy (FEMINISM THREAD)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Like so many waves eroding the cliffs of the patriarchy (FEMINISM THREAD)

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

SMILLENNIALSMILLEN posted:

The comments on that article

The article was great, and she was honestly the gentlest touch of a feminist I've read in some time (seriously, she even threw "not all men" in there as a salve for the uninitiated/sensitive). They still managed to do little more than Explain how she's "wrong."

# ¿ Dec 27, 2016 16:11

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 08:59

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Pochoclo posted:

I am getting rather worried that the right-wing backlash we are seeing all over the world right now might endanger all the baby-step advances that have been taken in the last decade. I mean, politicians see that by catering to racists and sexists they get enough votes to win, so do you see this worsening? Look at Trump, Brexit, etc. Do you think the politicians will keep pandering to that demographic and reverse progressive laws, or at least stop pushing for more?

The world is in for a very bad time, if history is any indication.

The tide broke and rolled back, if you will.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2016 20:21

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

FactsAreUseless posted:

No, icantfindaname. He came in whining about something not based in real feminist discussion, but his own insecurities as a man. It has no place in a discussion of feminism. It does not contribute to the conversation. It isn't even really about feminism.

Where but a discussion of feminism (Not this specific thread mind you, just spitballing here) would discussions of male insecurities and other issues arising from toxic masculinity go? The Usual Spaces for men are notably bad about it, likely by design.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2016 22:11

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Vindicator posted:

Feminism exists in order to advance gender equality. "I don't feel like I'm being adequately centered in this gender equality movement" seems to me to be a contradictory position to hold. If the concern is that spheres in which masculinity/toxic masculinity is prevalent do not address the concerns of men, then the solution seems to be to advocate to change that environment so that it better serves those within it. Take the spaces you have and make them feminist, and all that.

I agree actually. It's why I tried to disclaimer my question with "(not this thread)". I don't want this thread to be about it/us, so I'm sorry if I came off that way. We tend toward being self-centered and loud, myself included.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Make a good one, I really think you specifically would be good at that. Like, I think about this a lot when I think about the long history of patriarchal bullshit - it was never all men building these structures, it was a few assholes and everyone else letting them get away with it. Make a good place for men to talk about the poo poo toxic masculinity calls them "fags" for feeling. I think it would be incredibly worthwhile and appreciated.

I'll see what I can do. I'm not terribly good at OP's, but I'll try to make one work.

And your other post was great. I always feel like crap when I think about how much my wife does around the house in respect to my own. Most of us don't deserve the relationships we have.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2016 22:58

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

silence_kit posted:

You need to come into the thread well-educated on the proper theory, but don't assume that there is a feminist canon or majority consensus within the ideology. That'd be untoward.

with this passive aggressive poo poo.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2016 23:03

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

The male gender issues thread is going around around with this mental block right now. I think there are two roots - our culture's sense of morality is very just-world, so if someone has a problem it's because they let it happen. Then people in privileged positions, like men, simply don't run into intractable, structural problems so much. They have a lot more freedom of choice - if your job is bad just get another job, etc. It makes it hard to see that venting about a problem is dealing with it, if you've reasonably determined that problem is not actually in your power to solve. In women's lives more often than men's lives sometimes things just suck and all you can do is manage your unhappiness about the sucking.

Also frustrating is men tend to really not get that a man and the woman doing the same action will get different results. A man is "assertive" when a woman is "bitchy." "Just tell them what's wrong" doesn't work if you know you get interrupted every time you open your mouth at work. Standing up for yourself when you're anything other than a straight white male is a very risky gamble. We all do it sometimes, we have to, but it's something you have to weigh the consequences of very carefully.

I wish we would socialize our boys to be more quietly confident, because "assertive" men only make me angry to deal with in any capacity. Less so when it's a woman (which is probably ingrained sexim there too, albiet of the "not a threat" kind), but it's still there.

Defenestration posted:

I agree with TB about amplification. I would add that you can make an effort to directly solicit women's ideas, especially in front of other men. And you can listen to them one on one. Take a minute to be like "hey what did you think about that meeting/this strategy?" in private, so that she might feel more inclined to say what she feels without public consequences.

But in general, this is the attitude you want to have. Maybe you can't see the outline of the gender-bias problems in your workplace, but you know they're in there, camouflaged somewhere. So you look a little more closely and carefully.

story of my drat life. Even though I've worked in female dominated industries exclusively. Internalized patriarchy is a hell of a drug

Amplification (I had no idea there was a term for it, but hooray!) is great. I try to use it at work when we deal with outside groups that involve (typically) men and they try to talk over my boss.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 19:23

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

For another example see how this thread is already rated "poo poo' while the men's version of the thread, which is just a half-dozen men going "no take, only throw" over and over again doesn't have enough votes to be rated at all.

I was hoping that both would be good, especially after the seperation. I can't even keep up with that one. What does "no take, only throw" mean if you don't mind? ("Pretend" I'm on a highschool graduate ecucation level here.)

Hawkgirl posted:

The content of the abuse is different too. I can't find it, but there was some article from a dude married to a fellow reporter/blogger/whatever, and they compared the kind of flaming/criticism they got. Dude's responses were all about the content of the article he wrote and how he was dead wrong and why. Lady's responses were all "loving oval office I'll kill you" and poo poo like that. Very little about the actual content of the article.

I see a lot of this online, and it loving baffles me. Who are these men? I can't fathom someone so insane and hateful that they'd send threats, however anonymously, to women they've never met, for reasons that don't begin to make any sense.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 20:07

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Reference to my favorite comic, Dog Logic

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 20:19

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

MageMage posted:

Can one be at all surprised that a thread discussion on toxic masculinity missed the point completely and became... toxic?

A group of bad actors came and made the whole goddamn thing about being clueless of housework in an attempt to drive it into the ground. They succeeded. If I get the time this weekend, I'll make a new thread with a much more specific topic and set of rules.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 15:32

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Octatonic posted:

Hey! Thanks for the detailed response! (If all disagreement in this thread were at this level I think we'd all be way happier!) It'll take me a bit to write the response this one deserves, but I did read it, and I intend to get back to you. I'm not sure how much I can help you with regard to some of the more ontological questions, which I guess is a personal weakness of my philosophy. I've always been less interested in "where did this come from" than "what is to be done" or "what does it mean".

If anyone else itt has thoughts about sexual dimorphism and agression, I'd love to see your thoughts. I see masculine agression as much as a cultural value as a "physical" one, and I agree that a pedagogy that focuses on empathy and conflict resolution is something that is absent for a lot of boys.

One of the big challenges of primary education, as you alluded to, is balancing the individuality of students with wider needs of the class, and frankly, the instructor's time. To use an example from a workplace I was in: it's way easier for an administrator to tell the boy making sexual inuendos that the discussion is inappropriate for school than it is to explain why it makes the girls (and hell, the instructor) uncomfortable, and why that's important. Observing this was pretty frustrating for me, because while the intervention as far as I could tell worked, in that the kid shut up, I don't think it actually addressed the problem.

I think masculine, testosterone linked aggression is real, if overstated and made far worse by our culture's socialization of boys. We simply aren't taught how to control our tempers beyond the basic "it's not nice to hit" as toddlers. They never tell you about the scary side. That fighting and conflict are a rush. That it feels good to hurt someone who wronged you. And that's not just limited to physical conflict either. It's in all aspects of our society as men. Punishing those who hurt us, or get in our way. We're not taught about the adrenaline rush you get when you're furious, and how bad or addicting that is. No, we get to see badasses on TV stomping the bad guys. It took me years of fighting my inner rage-aholic to get where I am now, and it never fully goes away.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 17:53

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Eimi posted:

In general how much was that an option for boys in 00s or 90s? I remember the only avenue for a teenage job I was told about was lawn work, when while I'm nowhere near patient enough to properly handle kids at least it would've been indoors.

I actually babysat for my neighbors for spending money at 14, but I might be an outlier.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 17:55

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

BarbarianElephant is one of the few high-effort contributors to this thread so I'm gonna go ahead and say yes.

p.s. I will hold all your babies, give them to me. There's a flipside of this where a woman being too enthusiastic about anything traditionally female is assumed to be stupid or to lack ambition. I can't breathe a word about ever theoretically possibly wanting to have kids at work, because every man and a depressing percentage of women will assume I'll knock myself up the minute they turn their backs and never care about my job again.

This from the Male end. Babies are the greatest thing on the planet, and one of the sole redeeming qualities of humanity.

It helps that babies luuurve me. :kimchi:

Jenner posted:

Happy Birthday to the Ground!

FactsAreUseless posted:

No no, these are 100 percent valid points. It's just funny. It's a funny story. Somebody handed you a baby, so you put the baby on the floor. That's funny, regardless of how the situation stands in the context of wider gender issues.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 20:29

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

SpaceCadetBob posted:

This was horribly burdensome for my wife before she got pregnant a year ago. She had a really well paying corporate job, but felt like she was always getting probing questions about 'babies' that made her feel like the minute she admitted to wanting one all future promotion potential would vanish.

Jokes on them though, now we have a beautiful 3 month old and she ain't ever going back. So maybe they were right to worry, but gently caress em.

Compassion and logic are at odds with each other in these cases. The right thing to do is pretend it won't hurt the business, and treat people like they aren't going to vanish for however long, possibly not coming back. But it does impact companies and always will. The rich should just get over it.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 20:42

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

BarbarianElephant posted:

These days, jobs are no longer for life. You are as likely to quit your job for greener pastures as quit it for babies. They are as likely to cut your job as promote you.

Very true, but if you're in a valued position and they need you, it hurts the bottom line quite a bit to go out on Maternity, as it's illegal to just fire you for it (like they would happily do otherwise). I think it's even worse for women who need a job. Interviewing while pregnant has to be an excercise in futility, as the company knows full well you're going to leave almost as soon as you get there, taking up a spot that could be filled with someone who would be there.

Again, as a disclaimer; I don't agree with not hiring pregnant women if they're qualified for the job, or passing them up for promotions, etc.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 20:52

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Cease to Hope posted:

It's telling that the fact that laws against discrimination against women who are (or planning to be) pregnant don't even factor in this calculation.

FactsAreUseless posted:

Depends on the job and the state, but for the vast majority of American women, they can just fire you for something else, or just straight-up without cause. Job security isn't a real thing anymore.

The problem is really this. HR will do their damndest to get around it if they can, and if they don't need you. If you're not essential to the project/business, you're hosed.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 20:56

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

TZer0 posted:

An interesting read I found a while back - a condensed document of a thread on metafilter about emotional labour and male privilege.

The original thread can be found here.

I remember reading this document the first time and thinking "Wait, what the gently caress? People expect their wives/SOs to do WHAT?".

I just read this and honestly feel pretty bad about it. I have always seen things like Christmas cards to extended family and maintaining relationships with the same to be frivolous. Not seeing the act of doing so to be "women's work," and expecting my wife to do it, but honestly being baffled as to why she bothers in the first place. I try to remember to do things like that when it comes to close family and close friends, though admittedly it's my wife who either reminds me, or on occasion does the preparations for me entirely. It's going to suck retraining myself to give a drat about this sort of thing, but it's a shared burden. Maybe it'll suck less for my wife that way.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2017 18:39

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Speaking of representation, I've noticed a lot of marketing towards young girls for Star Wars lately, and it makes me squee a little every time. And as figher pilots, commandos and Jedi too, not a helpless, badly written "queen" in sight. Jyn Erso being the lead in Rogue One was huge IMO.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2017 15:50

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

BarbarianElephant posted:

My husband watched Star Wars with our daughter (nearly 4) for the first time recently and its notable how she really didn't care about any of the characters except Princess Leia. I've noticed this with her and most TV/Movies - she prefers movies and TV with a lot of female characters. If there's scenes with male characters only she generally zones out and keeps asking where her favourite female characters are. I think this is one reason why "Princess" movies are so popular. They are the one genre of kid movie that reliably have a female character in a prominent role the entire way through.

When it comes to Princesses, you really can't get much better than Leia at least. I always thought she was a badass.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2017 16:05

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Kelp Me! posted:

Phasma better loving get a ton of screentime in Ep8 because they hyped the poo poo out of her and she's in TFA for all of like a minute. I can't even remember if you ever see her with her helmet off.

I was so mad about that. I was pumped that she was the Stormtrooper captain, had the badass silver armor and a goddamn cape, and was just comedy relief for Finn.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2017 19:12

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Ytlaya posted:

I wonder how much of the sexist attitude parents often have towards daughters vs. sons (not just with regards to sex, but also many other things) stems from the father vs the mother. I mean, obviously it can and does come from both parents, but I wonder if it's more common with one than the other. I have a strong hunch that if I were a girl my dad would have been less cool with the idea of me having sex than my mom (this is coming from a non-religious, non-conservative family).

I'm not sure it's entirely sexism, but might at least be partially based in practicality. Traditionally, you worry that your daughter could become pregnant and left to care for the baby alone by some deadbeat. You didn't have to worry about that with a son (unspokenly implying that said son has the option of being a deadbeat). Today the roles could very well be reversed in some states. A daughter has the option of an abortion in case of an accidental pregnancy, where a son who makes the same mistake has no option but what his partner chooses (this is as it should be, as bodily autonomy is beyond important). It's imperative to teach our sons the possible consequences, and how to take responsibility for them. This includes teaching enthusiastic consent, safe sex, contraception, etc.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2017 15:13

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

stone cold posted:

Please don't smugbrag about your donation in here as means to attack me or tb for your dumb redtext. Neither of us is dumb enough to spend actual real money on `lame internet burns.`

Thanks for your donation though, and is RAINN thread still up, be sure to cross post.

Now did you have anything of value to contribute on-topic, say double standards in sex ed, or how sexism in policing has led to a significantly higher rate of arrest for teenage girls?

Wait what? Is this a new thing?

# ¿ Jan 5, 2017 21:19

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

This is off-topic so this is all I'll say, but baby language isn't a "cheat," it's natural and something a lot of mammals do. It's good for babies. It shouldn't be the only way you talk to them, but doing it is good and fine and helps them learn. It's like baby food. It's not wrong to give it to a baby just because eventually they'll grow teeth and need adult food. There's actually a sexism aspect to the criticism of baby talk - paternalistic male researchers arbitrarily decided anything mothers were doing without their guidance was stupid and wrong. Kids are humans and thus great at code-switching. Just because they call their stuffed bear a "baba" at two doesn't mean they'll be calling the park rangers reporting a grizzly baba sighting at twenty.

This is really refreshing to read. I've always been super wary of baby-talk with my son, but still indulge him a little here and there and felt guilty about it. My son clearly knows what a pacifier is, and that "pacifier" is our word for it, while his is "bao." I've taken to asking him where his "bao" is, and he'll usually produce one he's hidden somewhere in the room, or at the very least go looking for it.

Also, baby-boxes are an amazing idea, and I'm glad that they're becoming more of a thing.

Nessa posted:

That is true. Baby boxes are definitely feminist and I feel they should be standard in every country.

100%.

# ¿ Jan 18, 2017 17:58

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

There are similar problems in my field. We all know there aren't enough female directors, producers, and writers, and that leads to a dearth of female stories, but tackling that problem from the top down is only half the battle. Studios are telling the truth in some respects when they say they can't find enough women to hire. It's because those women get pushed out at earlier stages - they don't have the wealth or crony connections to fund independent films so they don't make it on the festival scene, they don't get the PA jobs because women "aren't cut out for it," they don't get promotions because they didn't get invited to the strip club business meeting, they don't stick with their film major in college because of one too many creeps in the all-night editing lab, they don't pick up cameras in high school because AV club is made up exclusively of vicious girl-hating nerds, a million different problems, many of them so "trivial" that men sputter and dismiss them as whining and proof that women can't hack it if they're going to let a little thing like that bother them.

Another hard example of toxic masculinity is that this sentiment is reinforced to men in that they are expected to dismiss just about any problem that isn't bleeding to death in one another as whining. Worse, they'll call it "bitching" to really drive the whole 'women are bad, therefor you're being a woman' narrative home.

# ¿ Jan 18, 2017 23:07

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 08:59

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

I had always heard about Midwives from the Woo peddling types I'm related to. Usually in conjunction with "water birth" and home delivery (and then down the rabbit hole of placenta usage). I'm glad to hear it's not all like that, and that there is an associated medical degree with it.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2017 20:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Like so many waves eroding the cliffs of the patriarchy (FEMINISM THREAD)