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The comment about how men overestimate how much housework they do reminded of the studies that show in discussion groups of men and women, men perceive women as talking much more than they actually do, so that when women speak something like 30% of the time, men will say they dominated the conversation (I can't find this particular study right now, so if someone could link it that would be awesome). Now like TB said, this is something even feminist men do; even if they know better we're all conditioned to have certain expectations about gender roles, and even the slightest hint that someone may be beginning to violate them can make men lose all sense of proportion, particularly when privileges are seemingly threatened. Also, fun housework story: over Christmas my 12 year old cousin saw his dad doing dishes and laughed and said he was doing "women's work." Now this is a kid who regularly spends time with my other cousin and her wife, who both have awesome careers and also do lots of farm work, repair work, and other tough stuff, etc.  Fortunately they overheard him say it, so guess who ended up doing dishes for everyone?
Sharkie fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 23:03
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Defenestration posted:absolutely. an SO might say "just ask me, just remind me" but I am always super conscious that I don't want to be a "nag." What I value most in a person is someone who anticipates your needs. Someone who is thinking about you so you DON'T have to ask. This is a good point, cause "just tell me what to do" implicitly creates a double bind where, if you actually try to make the relationship work that way there's a whole host of tropes ready to comfort the man and reassure him that no, she's just a nag, she's "wearing the pants lol," and etc., so the moment he gets frustrated at being told to do chores, bam, you're the bad guy, and he's just the poor put-upon man trying to cope with a domineering wife. Even if a guy says that coming from a good place, the cultural pressure to resent it is immense. And thanks for the notes on The Second Sex btw, though I'm also not sure how "transcendant" is being used in it; did you ever clear that up?
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Dec 28, 2016 01:03
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Re: white women who voted Trump, of course everyone else is right in that racism and white privilege were the main motivators. But one thing I noticed in women defending it was a kind of hopelessness or despair about how men are expected to behave: "it's no big deal because that's just how men are." When you grow up around lovely, misogynistic men, and live in a place where that's accepted, it's much easier to rationalize away. Now, does this mean the women saying this would tolerate a son or a husband acting like this? Who knows. But boys will be boys rhetoric is a framework that supports all kinds of heinous poo poo.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:28
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stone cold posted:Well, I think it's that framework, the internalized misogyny, and the power differentials that tell you to keep your head down and agree when you may know that way of thinking is wrong, until you start agreeing out of habit and survival. Oh yeah. It's sad but I can completely understand how a woman ends up having that attitude out of the need for emotional survival. Like how of course some of the women saying that were surely victims of similar assaults.
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Dec 28, 2016 03:46
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Vindicator posted:I for one am perfectly comfortable with Tiny Brontosaurus openly calling out shitposters. Let's not pretend they entered in good faith, particularly when you see the same names trotting out the same tired poo poo they trotted out in every other thread regarding some aspect of minority rights in recent history. drat straight. It's bizarre to me that people obviously doing nothing but trying to poo poo up the thread get passed by in silence but the person posting relevant, interesting content gets the stern talking-to.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:11
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proletarian_pixie posted:...We have the tendency to retaliate, emotionally and rhetorically if not physically. Yet at the same time, I still feel angry that they made a choice to simply stop working with me rather than telling me what I did wrong so we could move forward together. It can totally be frustrating whenever communication breaks down, but, and I'll be blunt, I think some of those feelings are misplaced, sorry  . I get it, if I've done something that bothered or upset people, I'd want to know, too, like most people! And it's of course good to be mad at a situation where women don't feel able to speak out. But try not to take it too personally, instead, think about what you can do going forward to create a space that encourages women to do this and makes it safe for them to do so. As far as the "responsibility" on thepart of afab women, well of course you know why that's not entirely fair, as the pressure to be silent isn't, at the root of it, coming from them. And also, do you really know why they didn't feel like speaking up? There are all sorts of reasons both personal and perhaps within the organization that might have caused that aside from bog-standard socialization.I guess channel your anger at the real problem, our patriarchal culture, and work on what the organization could have done differently to encourage more women, cis or trans, to speak out.
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Dec 29, 2016 00:26
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So what are your thoughts on the subject, Good Canadian Boy?
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Dec 29, 2016 08:59
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Octatonic posted:Thanks for making the thread, and for posting in it Thank you for the effort posts! Hopefully I'll have time to say something more substantial later; I just wanted to say it's appreciated and I'm sure lots of other people found them helpful like I did.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:39
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Could anyone point me towards some recent, or heck, even basic foundational, work on gender abolition as it relates to trans issues? The concept of gender abolition is one of those things I grapple with; it's one of those ideas that I think has so much value as both a theoretical framework and as praxis for reforming society into something less crappy, but practically it can be hard for me to engage with because the discussion as been so soured by some very bigoted (and hypocritical) people. I know Dworkin was, at least initially, supportive of access to trans medical care, even though I strongly disagree with her about gender abolition removing the concept of transgender people entirely. I've seen concepts like "people with estrogen, either endogenous or not; people with testosterone, endogenous or not, and etc." thrown around, and I think that may be a way forward, but I'd really like to brush up on my fundamentals and see where the conversation is at now, outside of random blog posts.
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Dec 31, 2016 03:19
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Cease to Hope posted:This sort of discourse runs up hard against non-binary experiences and trans experiences in poverty, though. If you present androgynously or don't present in a consistent way, you don't fit into that sort of system. Similarly, not every trans person can or wants to seek HRT, and this framing leaves no place at all for children or anyone on puberty blockers. Absolutely. I was trying to frame it in a way that is non binary but me no words good. I still think there's value in a sort of way of describing and of acknowledging the validity of different bodies and identities while erasing the walls of gender we've created, but at the same time I'm not supporting anything that is dismissive of nonbinary people, intersex people, or transgender people who don't follow the stereotypical trans narrative. Again, this is a thorny issue for me. Thanks for bringing that up, and I'd love to read work that addresses these criticisms.
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Dec 31, 2016 05:41
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It looks like Celine Shimizu is my homework for tonight because that is some fascinating and important work. But until I've read her I'd like to about the anti-human trafficking/prostitution campaign the Houston P.D. is waging in anticipation of the upcoming superbowl (and the anticipated rise in trafficking victims due to the increase in visitors to the city). I don't trust it. The police chief got on TV to announce the campaign which, as far as I can tell, is just an old-fashioned vice sting. They did say they were working with trafficking victim organizations to reserve beds, but beyond that they didn't address anything that seemed targeted at helping victims. Who is getting these beds, and who is just going to jail? The heart of my problem is that they conflate sex trafficking with prostitution. This doesn't help anyone. It obfuscates the problem while turning sex trafficking into a buzzword that is used to paper over the same old anti-sex worker policies. How does it help anyone to deliberately blur the distinction between coerced victims and women who choose to work in the sex business? Doesn't it cheapen and damage the very concept of sex trafficking to use it in what is pretty clearly an antiprostituion vice bust? It's telling that this operation is supposedly against "human trafficking," which includes sex trafficking and labor trafficking, yet the police chief ends it by saying "For the johns," Acevedo said, "We're putting you on notice today... When we arrest you, we will expose you for the sick person that you are." Because sending the press photos of arrested johns is going to keep enslaved women safe  .I'm biased, but it's kind of disgusting to see the police use something as serious as human trafficking as wallpaper for what is pretty clearly an operation to protect the city's image while the tourists are in town.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:49
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"The illegal status of sex work in most countries has not eradicated prostitution. Instead, criminalization has increased sex workers’ vulnerability to human rights abuses and created fertile ground for police exploitation, especially of street-based sex workers." https://rewire.news/article/2011/12/15/ending-police-abuse-sex-workers/ "But it’s remarkable that sex workers using a resource describing itself as the “world’s largest bad client database and escort safety tool” seem more concerned about warning each other about police officers than the dangers from which law enforcement is ostensibly meant to protect them." “It terrifies me all the time,” explains the 55-year-old, whose escorting profile describes her as “a small petite adult beauty.” She does screen her clients, but her main worry is about the police. “That’s a way, way, way bigger concern than creepy guys,” she says. “Way bigger.” http://www.vocativ.com/239316/national-blacklist-for-sex-workers/ "Police Violence Against Prostitutes: Thirty percent of sex workers interviewed told researchers that they had been threatened with violence by police officers, while 27% actually experienced violence at the hands of police." http://sexworkersproject.org/downloads/RevolvingDoorFS.html
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Jan 14, 2017 19:23
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Yeah, "I dunno" is pretty close to my views about it in general. TB made some very good points earlier, but I tend towards decriminalization. I'm not sure what kind of model I really think would work best; I do have a bias towards allowing people to do it, but I don't know how to work that in a world of trafficking and coercion. I dunno.
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Jan 15, 2017 09:37
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:Y'all took Austin's Police Chief and I'm sad about it. Acevedo did a good job of busting up the racist cops that Austin has been infested with, and he did it while getting heat internally because of it. If we're looking for someone that's interested in making sure that the cops aren't abusing victims, Acevedo is probably a better than average shot. This in tandem with him trying to get better mental health care for police officers really makes me think he just wants cops to not be lovely people. How much active help and outreach they do for the victims though? I have no idea how that will pan out. I'd love to be wrong. But short of some detailed information about how they're actually helping victims I'm going to have to stick with my initial impression. And it's great that he's done things to help his department, but in and of itself that doesn't fill me with any confidence that he'll be particularly great with either sex trafficking victims or women who voluntarily do sex work. Also wateroverfire came into a thread about feminism to make excuses for a rapist. gently caress off forever you goddamned rape apologist.
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Jan 16, 2017 19:42
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