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The Kingfish posted:You are right that it would be shouted down instantly, but get this: maybe that isn't a good thing?? It may not be strictly optimal but it is not far off the mark. Discussing inherent differences between the sexes is, in the majority of cases, simply throwing in the towel and saying "well we can't make any changes so let's talk about how we just have to accept XYZ" which I do not consider to be an acceptable concession.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:23
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The Kingfish posted:You are right that it would be shouted down instantly, but get this: maybe that isn't a good thing?? "Maybe boys just plain aren't as smart as girls?" and "Maybe girls just plain aren't as smart as boys?" should be shot down if there's no evidence to support it. If you or Blue Star want to start supporting that kind of claim I'll read it.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:25
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Phyzzle posted:Huh. I guess trans issues fit in this thread, so I'll ask: wouldn't virtually any feminist, or virtually any other trans woman, ferociously disagree with you on that? Germaine "Multiple Miggs" Greer might have to smell your vagina, I guess, before she could weigh in. Most non-TERFs would, though.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:25
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That post is a pretty perfect example of how patriarchy victimizes men. Not, and I want to be clear here, in the same ways or to the same extent as women. But it still couches a ton of harmful assumptions in the language of strength and weakness that is part of a patriarchal culture.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:25
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Also the real woman thing borrows that same language, but like... I'm not going to criticize a trans woman for how she perceives herself, even if I disagree, because I am not a trans woman.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:27
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Yeah, it was not a good post. Taking garbage MRA and  language and turning it against boys isn't the right way to go.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:30
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The Kingfish posted:You are right that it would be shouted down instantly, but get this: maybe that isn't a good thing?? I agree. Maybe the difference in suicide rates is 100% cultural. Maybe it's 50% cultural and 50% testosterone doing things to people's brains. Either way, there are people who are suffering. They should be helped because they're suffering. Knowing the cause might help us target our interventions better. But biological causes of a disease don't matter if we're at the, "why should anyone care?" stage. So focusing on them is a pointless distraction. In all the examples that Blue Star brought up, it seems like we could just go, "Suppose you're right. So what?"
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Dec 28, 2016 23:31
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I suspect strongly, but would need an actual psychologist or sociologist or something to back this up, that you see increased suicide rates in men because men are culturally encouraged to not express emotion. So more men are pushed to that level of desperation. But that's very much an offhand hypothesis.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:33
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FactsAreUseless posted:That post is a pretty perfect example of how patriarchy victimizes men. Not, and I want to be clear here, in the same ways or to the same extent as women. But it still couches a ton of harmful assumptions in the language of strength and weakness that is part of a patriarchal culture. If young men harmed by patriarchal structures are turning to spaces where they become radicalized then I don't think vocalizing their suffering as less important is a good way to keep them away from those spaces. Their suffering may be globally less, and neither does the suffering need to be glorified, but would your statement have been any less if you removed the second sentence?
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Dec 28, 2016 23:34
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Zachack posted:If young men harmed by patriarchal structures are turning to spaces where they become radicalized then I don't think vocalizing their suffering as less important is a good way to keep them away from those spaces. Their suffering may be globally less, and neither does the suffering need to be glorified, but would your statement have been any less if you removed the second sentence?
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Dec 28, 2016 23:37
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falcon2424 posted:I agree. Maybe the difference in suicide rates is 100% cultural. Maybe it's 50% cultural and 50% testosterone doing things to people's brains. That assumes the discussion is taking place in a vacuum.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:39
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Like high heels alone are an insane thing. Insane. They are very bad for your feet, legs, hips, and back. They cause medical problems. And yet women are required to wear them not only to look hot, but even to look professional. This is so universally accepted that it's just part of how women have to dress for work. Want a raise? Want a promotion? You'd better wear heels every day. You see this discussion happening in women's discussion spaces. Take a look at, for example, the Female Fashion Advice subreddit, which I'm familiar with because my girlfriend follows it. Men don't have an equivalent problem, and that's not even in the top 10 problems women face in American society (which I assume this thread is basically discussing), let alone others.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:40
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OwlFancier posted:That assumes the discussion is taking place in a vacuum. Not really. Though I don't think it would make much difference if it were. What context are you assuming, and why would it change your approach?
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Dec 28, 2016 23:42
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FactsAreUseless posted:I suspect strongly, but would need an actual psychologist or sociologist or something to back this up, that you see increased suicide rates in men because men are culturally encouraged to not express emotion. So more men are pushed to that level of desperation. But that's very much an offhand hypothesis. Another factor (at least in the US) appears to be the method of suicides. Generally speaking it appears that women and men actually have similar rates of suicidal thoughts and attempts. However, men tend to gravitate to methods that are relatively more likely to succeed, most prominently guns which make up more than half of successful male suicides. Women on the other hand are more likely to go for poison or overdoses of medication, which offer a greater chance of survival and consequentially actual treatment. Quick source: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.pdf
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Dec 28, 2016 23:45
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FactsAreUseless posted:I suspect strongly, but would need an actual psychologist or sociologist or something to back this up, that you see increased suicide rates in men because men are culturally encouraged to not express emotion. So more men are pushed to that level of desperation. But that's very much an offhand hypothesis. That possibly points to there being more women than men who wish to end their lives, but that women are conditioned to believe that they have less bodily autonomy over the matter than men do, and/or that men are more conditioned that they have to 'do it right if they do it at all, no half measures'. Both are different and toxic attitudes arising from patriarchal society. Unfortunately a lot of the male-focused suicide prevention campaigns seem to think that just talking more will reduce the disparity between male and female suicide rates, ignoring the parasuicides and their consequences, rather than any attempt to address root causes.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:45
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Perestroika posted:Another factor (at least in the US) appears to be the method of suicides. Generally speaking it appears that women and men actually have similar rates of suicidal thoughts and attempts. However, men tend to gravitate to methods that are relatively more likely to succeed, most prominently guns which make up more than half of successful male suicides. Women on the other hand are more likely to go for poison or overdoses of medication, which offer a greater chance of survival and consequentially actual treatment. Guavanaut posted:If it were just that though, you wouldn't see increased parasuicide rates in women above that of the suicide rate in men.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:47
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Popoi posted:Preferences aren't formed in a vacuum. If one guy says "Hey I'm not that in to asian guys" it's probably not worth worrying too much about. If it's a substantial majority of guys, it seems likely there's something going on culturally that's worth pushing back against. What is the cultural phenomenon that leads to white men being insufficiently attracted to Asian men? Are Asian men viewed as less masculine? FactsAreUseless posted:I just don't want to make those two things equivalent because they're not. They just aren't. They're parallel issues that share a source, but the degree is different. Men aren't disproportionately victims of sexual and domestic violence. Men don't earn less money, they don't have less sexual freedom, they don't face the same body pressures, they don't have to dress in ways that literally physically harm them. Men have plenty of legitimate problems in a patriarchal society, but they aren't equivalent to the problems women face. So I'm not delegitimizing men's issues: I'm making sure that doesn't happen to women's issues. But this is a thread for men's issues. I think we should feel like we can discuss men's issues without adding *of course women have it much worse all the time to every post. Considering how gross most Men's Rights discussions on the internet are, I understand you want to avoid this place turning into MRA chat. But I think that's not very likely to happen in D&D.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:47
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FactsAreUseless posted:I suspect strongly, but would need an actual psychologist or sociologist or something to back this up, that you see increased suicide rates in men because men are culturally encouraged to not express emotion. So more men are pushed to that level of desperation. But that's very much an offhand hypothesis. The statistics still say women attempt suicide more often. If anything is to be read into it about society and culture, it is that suicidal men usually have access to more successful means of killing themselves. Half of all suicides are by firearm, and I'm sure access to firearms skews heavily male. Also, women have their own set of pressures towards hiding emotions. Men may be encouraged to be stoic, but women are encouraged to smile and be pleasant. And the stigma of a mental health issue is bad no matter what your gender.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:49
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There's also a significant difference in the methods of suicide men and women choose. Men generally go for the more lethal option straight off the bat. Women prefer less reliable methods such as overdose etc. The differences in methods would also lead me to believe that there's probably a more internalized reason why men's suicide rates tend to be higher. More lethal methods are pretty much the ultimate assertion of being able to control your own destiny. A bullet to the brain, hanging yourself etc are all pretty active means of ending your life that put control entirely in the hands of the person deciding to kill themselves. This is pretty much consistent with the messaging men are given throughout their lives. The methods that women choose, however, are very much up to chance a lot of the time. A lot of overdoses do not work, for example, even if you're not actually discovered. This would also be consistent with messaging women are given throughout their lives.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:54
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Guy Goodbody posted:But this is a thread for men's issues. I think we should feel like we can discuss men's issues without adding *of course women have it much worse all the time to every post. Considering how gross most Men's Rights discussions on the internet are, I understand you want to avoid this place turning into MRA chat. But I think that's not very likely to happen in D&D. Beowulfs_Ghost posted:Also, women have their own set of pressures towards hiding emotions. Men may be encouraged to be stoic, but women are encouraged to smile and be pleasant. And the stigma of a mental health issue is bad no matter what your gender.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:56
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Men are also socialized to be more prone to violence, and the manner of suicide men choose are statistically much more violent than those women choose. I wish I could dig it up but I read somewhere that male survivors and female survivors actually report "not actually wanting to die" at similar rates... there's just fewer male survivors.
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Dec 29, 2016 00:01
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Guy Goodbody posted:What is the cultural phenomenon that leads to white men being insufficiently attracted to Asian men? Are Asian men viewed as less masculine? Actually, yes. Here's some links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS2jGfW5aOE https://mindthegapless.wordpress.com/2014/03/12/on-feminine-desexualized-asian-men-beyond-emasculation-toward-reappropriation/ (this one especially has some interesting looking citations, but I don't have JSTOR) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ama-yawson/asian-american-men-hunks-_b_5956614.html https://medium.com/a-m-awaken-your-inner-asian/tagged/asian-masculinity
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Dec 29, 2016 00:04
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falcon2424 posted:Not really. Though I don't think it would make much difference if it were. If someone wants to argue they probably aren't doing so from a compassionate position.Shutting down that topic is overwhelmingly shutting down lovely loving people who would not contribute to a desirable solution to the issues they, if we are to assume good faith, are attempting to identify.
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Dec 29, 2016 00:04
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So we need more muscular shirtless Asian men in movies and TV
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Dec 29, 2016 00:10
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OwlFancier posted:If someone wants to argue I don't generally care that much if my opponent is compassionate. I can argue to improve my own thinking. Or I can argue to convince an audience. Or I can argue to convince my opponent. In the first two, my opponent's inner life doesn't matter. They could be sympathetic. Or not. What's important is that they're interesting and a good foil. If I'm trying to convince my opponent then I generally assume that they're not compassionate to my position. If they were, we'd already agree.
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Dec 29, 2016 00:11
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The problem with the argument presented without any evidence is that the answer to any question can easily become "because men and women are different". I think it's better to start with the assumption that men and women are not so horribly different unless there is some good evidence otherwise.
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Dec 29, 2016 00:36
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FactsAreUseless posted:I just don't want to make those two things equivalent because they're not. They just aren't. They're parallel issues that share a source, but the degree is different. Men aren't disproportionately victims of sexual and domestic violence. Men don't earn less money, they don't have less sexual freedom, they don't face the same body pressures, they don't have to dress in ways that literally physically harm them. Men have plenty of legitimate problems in a patriarchal society, but they aren't equivalent to the problems women face. So I'm not delegitimizing men's issues: I'm making sure that doesn't happen to women's issues. Hard to have less sexual freedom than I, a goon, and thus a neckbearded perma-virgin 
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Dec 29, 2016 00:37
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FactsAreUseless posted:Also the real woman thing borrows that same language, but like... I'm not going to criticize a trans woman for how she perceives herself, even if I disagree, because I am not a trans woman. It's okay to call someone on their bullshit, even if they are of a marginalized group. "Personal truth" is just another way of saying "opinion".
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Dec 29, 2016 00:37
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Mister Adequate posted:Hard to have less sexual freedom than I, a goon, and thus a neckbearded perma-virgin
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Dec 29, 2016 00:39
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FactsAreUseless posted:"Freedom from is greater than freedom to." -- Margaret Atwood lmao
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Dec 29, 2016 00:42
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the trump tutelage posted:It's okay to call someone on their bullshit, even if they are of a marginalized group. "Personal truth" is just another way of saying "opinion". I think there's an important distinction to be made. Blue Star personally doesn't see herself as a real woman. I'm not gonna argue with her about that. That's her own self image, and it's the business of herself and the IRL people who know and care about her, not some rando on the internet. If Blue Star said that all trans women aren't real women, then she's making a statement about an entire group of people, and it's reasonable to argue with her about that. If Ben Carson says he doesn't experience racism in his life, fine. If Ben Carson says black people don't experience racism, then that's an issue
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Dec 29, 2016 00:43
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I would agree if they had said "I will never feel like a real woman" or if Ben Carson said "I do not feel as though I have suffered from racism". However, stating that they never will be a real woman, or that they have never have experienced racism, are truth claims about the wider world, not their interior life, and are therefore fair game.
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Dec 29, 2016 01:10
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FactsAreUseless posted:"Freedom from is greater than freedom to." -- Margaret Atwood  Well played.
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Dec 29, 2016 01:23
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FactsAreUseless posted:"Freedom from is greater than freedom to." -- Margaret Atwood It works on so many levels.  the trump tutelage posted:I would agree if they had said "I will never feel like a real woman" or if Ben Carson said "I do not feel as though I have suffered from racism". Yeah, but at the very least, those statements suggest that they're just incorrect when it comes to their own experiences. That doesn't necessarily mean that they deny transphobia or racism as broader phenomena in the world. (although Ben Carson probably would, but hey, what do you expect, it's Ben Carson)
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Dec 29, 2016 01:48
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FactsAreUseless posted:I've heard these stats a few times, but haven't ever seen a theory as to why. Is it just that men are more likely to own guns, for instance? One hypothesis is cleanliness: women are much more unnerved than men at leaving a hideous corpse and a surrounding mess for people to judge them by posthumously.
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Dec 29, 2016 02:25
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I think that post/article about housework was 50/50, from the standpoint of actually making a fairer home. The implicit assumption is that the reason the work isn't been done is malice, and that, rather than listening to your partner, you have to go through an elaborate 'decoding' ritual, where you replace what they say with what you think they're saying. Sometimes the problem is just a lack of perspective & understanding, in fact that's probably what the problem is most of the time. The solution? Make a system. Record keeping, objective data. That's literally the first step you do. Not the last resort, the first. Don't be stand-off about it, just do it.
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Dec 29, 2016 02:31
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rudatron posted:I think that post/article about housework was 50/50, from the standpoint of actually making a fairer home. The implicit assumption is that the reason the work isn't been done is malice, and that, rather than listening to your partner, you have to go through an elaborate 'decoding' ritual, where you replace what they say with what you think they're saying. And who should do that labor, the woman or the man.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:00
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:And who should do that labor, the woman or the man. The labor of making the system? Both of the people in the household should work together to come up with a system that divides the household chores equitably.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:15
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rudatron posted:I think that post/article about housework was 50/50, from the standpoint of actually making a fairer home. The implicit assumption is that the reason the work isn't been done is malice, and that, rather than listening to your partner, you have to go through an elaborate 'decoding' ritual, where you replace what they say with what you think they're saying. I think like 90% of these sort of things is failure to communicate at its heart (including failure on the listening end). If you need to make cleaning assignments like it's the loving barracks that's a little weird but I guess whatever it takes.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:16
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Guy Goodbody posted:The labor of making the system? Both of the people in the household should work together to come up with a system that divides the household chores equitably. So you didn't read the article then
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Dec 29, 2016 03:17
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