Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

GlyphGryph posted:

It does make me feel bad for the girls though, who I suspect were largely socialized to believe that pain is inherently bad or some sort of weird stuff like that.

Sack tapping and punch for punch, anyone? Christ.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 16:01

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 16:24

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

I was "friends" with a really loving terrifying bully, back in elementary school. This kid was like, 6 ft tall and far and away the best athlete in the school, and he was meaner than poo poo. My best friend had known him since they were in kindergarten, and he was always like "I don't know why he's so mean now, he used to be a really nice guy"

Well, later on, the kid's dad burned down his house trying to kill the whole family, but only managed to get the dog. Bullying is definitely a symptom.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 17:18

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

viewtyjoe posted:

In my experience, there was no towel-snapping, but then, I didn't participate in any activities that involved the group nudity and showering requisite to make towel snapping a thing.

My K-12 education (the parts I can remember, so mostly 2nd grade and onwards) was interesting. I was what could be considered an extremely disruptive student because even in advanced classes, I got most of the material extremely quickly compared to other students in my classes. I also was charismatic enough and likable enough that very few teachers wanted to actually discipline me for my poor behavior. A constant experience was "viewtyjoe, we know you know the answer, let someone else do it." I was generally just pushed through the advanced classes with acceptable, if not great, grades for the most part. Of course, when my poor behavior basically amounted to "doesn't do homework," it is pretty easy to let slide, especially when I consistently would perform on tests. This set me up poorly for further education, as I was able to get teachers to adjust the expectations on work for me on an individual basis in K-12, while college professors generally aren't so accommodating (though a number would go out of their way to try for me.)

Socially, I was liked enough. I associated mostly with the "smart" kids in elementary, and the "band/music" cliques in high school. I would provide enough academic assistance to others (letting people copy answers when I rarely did do homework, mostly) to fit in. I was a confidante for a lot more people than I think people realized, because I was considered trustworthy and genuinely seemed to enjoy listening (because I hated talking about myself or my feelings, so I would just prompt others to talk.) I wasn't bullied due to my association with peer groups that generally weren't worth targeting, as we were considered to be close to the teachers and bad targets.

Looking back on class compositions, for the most part, gender divides were relatively equal at the high school level, except for one or two classes I took which were outside of the main "academically talented" path. The few advanced classes that weren't on the standard track were very male-heavy, as were the computer programming classes. I believe that females were represented better at the high academic level because the majority of the teachers who taught those sections/classes were female and tended to treat everyone relatively fairly and didn't push/discourage anyone due to gender.

Of course, this is all pretty biased because I grew up in a majority white upper-class town (Boehner literally lived in my school district) that was expanding rapidly as a haven for white upper-class families because the schools were great (through no work of the district's.)

Another thing I've noticed that stands out to me is an issue that I have in general, but comes up most often with my wife. I have an extremely powerful memory, when I want to, and I tend to act from the assumption that everyone else can recall things just as well as I do. Between that and the fact that I don't like talking about myself, I will share small things with others, then when they don't remember (typically while I can remember a host of similar small personal things of theirs) I take affront because how could they not remember this one thing I said that one time once? This likely developed because during my years in high school, my immediate social group could remember that one thing said one time, which has set an expectation that I still have difficulty with in daily life.

Are you sure you're not me? I just always had a big heaping helping of arrogance to go along with it. I was always very certain I was the smartest kid I knew. Since then, I've come to realize that I didn't know very many kids.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 17:25

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

viewtyjoe posted:

Probably? I was the smartest kid I knew for sure that stuck around for any length of time, and ached for company. One of the first memories of romantic feelings I had while growing up was because there was a girl in one of my classes who was at least on my level, if not above it, and just having someone you could relate to who could keep up was a godsend. Shame she moved after the year was over.

Long-term, I learned to relate and adapt and stopped being so insufferable. Failing out of college may have had something to do with that, though. My mother maintains that someone earlier on should have gotten over the fact that they'd feel bad failing a bright kid like me and done it, because failure then wouldn't have been as painful as it was at the point I finally encountered it.

My moment of disenchantment came when my parents transferred me to a super-prestigious private school that I had tested in to or something, and they were all happy that I'd finally stop being bored in my classes, because this school would be able to challenge me.

Instead, I found out that you didn't actually have to be smart to go there, your family just had to be rich as gently caress. So I was still skipping all my homework and acing all my tests, with an added helping of being a social outcast and nurturing a complete disdain for the concept of organized education. It's ended up working out alright, but only because I was able to take advantage of family connections to weasel my way in to a field that's otherwise pretty opaque.

The Kingfish posted:

It disturbs me how quick some people are to pathologize normal boyhood behavior like roughhousing.

I've always been able to find girls who are okay with playful wrestling/smacking/biting etc once they realize they're allowed to be a little rough with you, and vice versa. There's a lot of women who like it just as much, they just need some nudging to let it out.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 18:21

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

I don't think things which encourage people to hurt each other are things that are necessary for living a fulfilled life and that if people are brought up to enjoy them that is a failure of upbringing, because there are better ways of doing things.

Pain is absofuckinglutely necessary for living a fulfilled life. I can't imagine how poo poo things would be if we just coasted along in absolute comfort for our entire pointless lives.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 18:23

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

Are you able to articulate why pain is a productive sensation?

What feels like pain except for pain? It's energizing. It activates parts of your brain that otherwise lie useless and dormant. When my girlfriend scratches my back, I want raised lines and sharp as gently caress nails because it feels so much better than just gentle rubbing.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 18:27

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

Because causing people pain, in most circumstances, is something that does not feel good. That's sort of inherently the point of pain is it's something you feel as a warning to stop you doing whatever you're doing.

While it is possible for pain to be enjoyed, if you're a masochist, I see no reason to encourage people to rely on it.

It's like... shouting. You should, as a rule, avoid shouting, and not be taught to use it in conversation, because the effect is that people who can shout louder and with more inclination to shout can dominate the conversation. While it may have some situational applications the default should be "don't do it" because the legitimate applications of it are limited and niche.

There's nothing about inflicting pain on people that can't be substituted for other means. I see no reason to encourage something so intertwined with violence and domination because "it feels good" many things feel good, that doesn't mean we should do them.

I let my friend tweeze my eyebrows on NYE because I was a little drunk and she did it to herself and called me a pussy. I wouldn't call myself a masochist, and it certainly wasn't a sexual thing, but it was scary and exciting nonetheless. I'd let her do it again even though it hurt, mostly because she seemed to really enjoy doing it. She obviously liked pushing me out of my comfort zone and sharing a superficially painful aspect of her regular routine.

I'm supposed to believe this was a bad thing ?

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 18:40

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

GlyphGryph posted:

Pain, in and of itself, triggers growth and motivates action. And not just physical pain, but all pain.

But even if it didn't, and wasn't inherently "productive", that doesn't mean it couldn't be a worthwhile component of some larger productive system, because it is a limit and consequence which is inherently immediate and temporary and superficial and that's actually super useful.

Prevent a child from engaging in any activity in which there is a real risk of pain, and you're essentially preventing that child from being able to grow up or engage in the world in a deep and meaningful way. Being taught to be afraid of things that hurt is one of the most serious thing you can do to stunt someone's physical and emotional development.

Engaging in play where pain is present superficial and temporary sends a strong, reassuring message that pain is okay, and there's no better scenario to learn that message than when surrounded by people who you can trust not to do you real harm and where it can be bonded over.

Also see: every time baby animals play with eachother ever

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 18:43

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

bag em and tag em posted:

What are you guys even debating? I don't think I've seen anyone advocate for inflicting pain on another person as a good thing unless consent is a part of it. So I'm not sure why it's getting repeated again and again as if that wasn't already established.

This dude appears to believe that even consensual pain is a bad thing, because there's already a bunch of non-consensual pain.

I disagree.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 18:51

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

Then I think you could stand to be far more specific about what "roughhousing" entails because I would hope you would be aware of how that is tied up with masculine socialization towards being OK with violence in general and being "tough".

Being tough is cool and good though? I think being a capable person who does not shirk from adversity is part and parcel with living a fulfilled life.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 18:52

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

Being "tough" can as easily mean "accepts mutual victimization with those around them as natural and will not challenge it" as much as it can mean "does not allow the threat of pain to deter them from following a moral imperative"

There's a lot of stuff out there I won't challenge, mostly because I don't see it as actual victimization.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:00

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

Which can be indicative of having internalized it as "normal" when the people on the receiving end of it may hold quite different views.

Oh, absolutely. Everybody's different. That's why it's important to explore and try new things, even if it might hurt or scare you, so you can enrich yourself through your experiences.

Like, towel snapping. Towel snapping loving hurts. I genuinely do not like it. But I liked chasing my friends around, and then running the gently caress away if I happened to get a good one.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:15

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

You are trying to normalize it such that anything else is pathological.

I mean, have you ever watched puppies play with eachother..?

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:18

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

Have you ever watched ducks mate?

So puppies playing with eachother is roughly equal to ducks mating, in intent and outcome?

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:20

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Who What Now posted:

Where they often let the smaller, weaker siblings win and don't intentionally try to maim one another or draw blood? Yeah, what about it?

I don't think I've ever "won" while wrestling with a girl. It's not about "winning" in the slightest.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:21

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Who What Now posted:

So, have you just never heard of the Naturalism Fallacy, or...?

No, I generally don't set much stock in arguments based on repeating the names of fallacies so I don't have all the really good ones bookmarked

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:22

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

Appealing to nature as a moral compass is not a good idea.

So puppies playing with eachother is... immoral? Or certainly not something that can be looked at as a positive, at least?

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:23

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

That's an awfully wordy "no u." Did you have anything of substance to say or are you still busy thinking about bird loving.

You're kind of loving up this thread right now :\

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:24

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Oh I am? Me? You sure about that?

Glyph how does it feel that the only one backing you up is bestiality guy. Does that give you pause at all.

I didn't even bring up the duckfucking, man...

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:26

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

Animals are not sapient, moral arguments don't apply to them, and you can point to nature and find just about any example of how a society works, that doesn't justify it.

For example, I propose we model our society on the naked mole rat.

What are some positive attributes of the naked mole rat that you feel we should emulate?

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:27

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Who What Now posted:

Morality doesn't apply to animals and the habits of animals aren't a basis for morality. If you have any other questions about the most basic tenets of philosophy that even small children can grasp, please feel free to ask me further.

So this post:

Who What Now posted:

Where they often let the smaller, weaker siblings win and don't intentionally try to maim one another or draw blood? Yeah, what about it?

was just you being a small child, or something?

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:29

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Who What Now posted:

I had assumed you weren't being serious and already knew your argument was fallacious so I was pointing out how your bad argument didn't even apply. Now I see that you really are that uneducated and ignorant and were being deathly serious.

No, it seemed like you got my point pretty much exactly, and then suddenly decided it was wrong because I'm just too stupid. Way to look like a really smart guy!

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:32

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

That, sort of tautologically, is what the word means.

Not everybody enjoys pain, and even fewer enjoy it in the same context. For something quite so niche and personal it is better not to socialize it as being a totally normal thing that everyone does together, you want to be normal, right? So you'll join in.

It is something you should work out for yourself with the people you want to work it out with.

I ended up having this argument in the alt right thread but the only alternative to "normal" is not "abnormal", it is possible to reject the concept of normativity entirely and acknowledge that some things are quite personal and will differ greatly from person to person.

I agree with this. If you don't want to roughhouse or whatever, it shouldn't reflect poorly on you. But it shouldn't be a problem if you DO, either.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:35

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

It becomes a problem if you do and other people don't want to, however.

Of course. But from what you were saying, I had the distinct impression you felt ALL roughhousing was inappropriate, that consensual pain could only be enjoyed if you were a masochist or something ie, sexually "abnormal."

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:38

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

Sexual normality/abnormality is another silly idea that could stand to be let go of.

Also agreed. As always, it appears people arguing on the internet are actually much more similar than they are different, and yet...

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:40

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 16:24

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

The Kingfish posted:

Naw, she 's just been trying to start a meme that I'm klan member.

It's okay, apparently I'm in to bestiality. Tiny Brontosaurus definitely seems like a person with thoughtful and well-reasoned opinions.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2017 19:44

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