Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

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FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

It's difficult to have a discussion on feminism on a largely male discussion forum without questions of how the issues impact men. And many of these are legitimate issues! But they're also issues that derail discussions about women's experiences and feminism from a woman's perspective. And that's not very feminist! So I'm going to quote a few posts - largely mine - that came up in the other thread, so the discussion can continue in this thread without further derailing the feminism thread.

A discussion of the impact of "women's work" on relationships between men and women

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Cool, barely into page 2 and already the most pressing feminist issue is male feelings. Since icantfindname, who is on my ignore list for being a huge bigot, incidentally, has had his answer maybe he can go off and chew on it by himself and not make this thread about him any longer? Men on the internet have a habit of seeing feminism threads as female attention dispensers, and it would be cool if people didn't let that happen here.

I am an activist in real life and one of the things I talk a lot about with people out there is concrete, achievable goals. With something as huge as patriarchy that can be hard, since it permeates everything and its causes and effects can be very hard to follow out. There's a kind of butterfly effect with societal biases - something as big as "why don't more women succeed in male-dominated fields?" is a river fed by tributaries so tiny people refuse to believe it could possibly matter, and get angry at the suggestion it does. Which is why I'd like to talk about the battlefront of my grandmother's generation of feminists, which has largely been forgotten by my own: Housework.

Ask any man who lives with a wife or girlfriend how much housework he does, and he'll usually say "about half," but taking stocks of all the domestic tasks that get done, that's almost never the case. Frequently a man is barely contributing to the work of keeping the home running at all, yet may feel his share of the chores is incredibly burdensome and he's selfless for putting up with it. Feminist men can be some of the worst offenders of this, because they know men should pull their weight, but the hidden sexism of their upbringing and their subconscious keeps them from really seeing how much work is actually done and who does it. If you ask a man about a household chore he doesn't do, he invariably says it doesn't "need" to be done - his wife or girlfriend only does it because she's so "picky," the silly woman.

Men tend to came the infrequent, showy tasks as their chores - cleaning the gutters might only need to be done once a year, and most importantly it's a concrete task with a satisfying finality when it's done. Not like laundry, dishes, wiping the countertops, vacuuming - a ceaseless grinding cycle of tasks that are never finished in the "don't have to do that again!" sense.

I have two articles I hope any cohabitating man will read. There's going to be some inevitable defensiveness, hysteria at being criticized, challenged, asked to think something new. Please don't post that here, it's not unique or informative, it's just growing pains you have to power through before a new idea can take roots in your brain.

Please also don't post to brag that you do, in fact, you'll have us know, contribute equally to the housework. Perhaps you even do more than the little lady! You're the one who needs to read this stuff most, because you're the one who doesn't even know all the work that needs to be done or who does it.

Here's a classic feminist piece, the best response I've ever seen to the reflexive "but you're just better at it, sweetie!" response men have about the chores they don't feel like doing. The Politics of Housework

Here's a blog post by a man who figured out the ingrained sexism he'd had regarding housework on his own. I haven't read the rest of his site, so if there's something impolitic in there I don't care. I like this post because he voices what I think is a pretty typical thought process men have about women "nagging" them about chores. The underlying assumption that poisons relationships and makes it impossible for men to see they're being sexist about chores is that women are always wrong and the things they want are stupid. You'll find this one lurking under a lot of sexism, really. It is nearly impossible to root out, because it's self-reinforcing. Men aren't being sexist when they assume women's thoughts are stupid and silly, they're just being level-headed and unbiased! Look how emotional this chick is getting when I tell her so, see, she was stupid and silly after all.

Anyway. She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By the Sink

I post these partly because men reading this thread in good faith might still have the impulse to whine "but what can I do?" You see us criticizing the structures of power, and you see yourself as powerless, and it's true. Odds are you're not a CEO cackling on the golf course about how no woman is ever going to make VP in your company, gat-dammit. But are you a man living with a woman who works just as hard as you, trying to succeed in a job just like you, who always has to put your dishes in the dishwasher for you because "who cares"? That's a drop of energy she has to burn and you don't, and those add up.

FactsAreUseless posted:

As a guy, I legitimately think most men - including myself - have no idea how to do this. It's just not something that we were taught how to do growing up, and without that knowledge a lot of men don't even realize it's not something they're doing. How would they? It's never been an issue, and if men also don't have the same standards for how a house should be cleaned you get the "it doesn't seem dirty to me" issue. Boys don't grow up constantly being told that it's work they need to know how to do like girls are, and they don't grow up seeing other men take care of it. It takes a lot of time to learn, there's a definite curve. Also, having had guy roommates, it's not like things get more evenly divided with men. poo poo just doesn't get taken care of as well. It's one of those places where we're straight up not preparing men for the real world by what we tell boys - or don't tell them, or don't even know we're telling them.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

That's very true, and I think that this, like a lot of feminist issues, is going to have to be solved in a generational way. Hypotheticals get too clunky, so here's how I really see things in my own family. My husband has older parents in a marriage that is very egalitarian for their generation, but noticeably different that my much younger, political activist parents. My dad read "The Politics of Housework" before I was born, and he and my mom have had serious discussions and occasional fights about ingrained sexism in housework. Thus my dad makes a very conscious effort to contribute, and was the primary cook when I was growing up, and in turn my brother is subconsciously much more aware of what needs doing and much more participatory than most men his age, to the point where he can't stand a typical fratty male roommate situation, because as you said frequently dudes just plain don't clean things.

My husband, in contrast, grew up seeing his dad go straight into the den after getting home from work, and straight into the living room after dinner. Both parents worked, which to my father-in-law makes them a radically feminist couple, but there was never any suggestion that dad might do more around the house than take care of the lawn and cars, and determine when it was time to call a repairman (his wife would be the one placing the calls and taking time off work to let them in).

My husband never saw his father helping around the house, and while his mom is aware that the concept of "women's work" is bullshit and made him do the same chores as his sister, he hit adulthood with that learned helplessness thing so many men do, where they just shrug and dawdle and say "you're better at it" until the women in their lives give up and do it themselves in exasperation.

I don't play that poo poo, so our first year living together had more than a few fights. It is true that learning things from the outside in will never be as effective as truly internalizing it. Right now his participation in the household work is entirely dependent on his memory. He has to actively remind himself to scan the house and check the status of the things he's memorized need doing, and when he does that it's great, but I hope if we have a son watching this example will help it be more instinctive for him, and we can keep making that progress so maybe next century this issue's finally settled.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Jolie Kerr writes "How to Clean Things" articles aimed at men as much as women, and she's a great place to start to try and understand the mindset. She hasn't written a "how to keep house" book yet, but when she does I'll buy it, because she's funny and has the reasonable and realistic attitude that cleaning things is just another kind of maintenance, not some showcase of femininity or quasi-religious virtue. Clean your stuff because you like your stuff and want your stuff to be nice.

Unfuck Your Habitat is another gender-neutral source of housekeeping advice, and since it's aimed at people who are starting from absolute zero, particularly those climbing out of depression-related squalor, it's fantastic both for lists of what to clean and how, and for breaking the process down into manageable baby steps.

Someone trying to train themselves to have an eye for what is clean and what is not could do a lot worse than trying out UFYH's "shine your sink'"or Jolie Kerr's "make your bed" daily mindfulness projects. You may not know how to analyze the whole house for cleanliness status, but you can see if the kitchen sink has crud in it or not every day and proceed accordingly. A clean sink makes dirt on the countertop more noticable, and it grows from there.

The Privilege Question: Do men benefit from Male Privilege?

Black Baby Goku posted:

What exactly is the advantage of someone with privilege to lose said privilege or give it up, even losing like 1% of their privilege?

FactsAreUseless posted:

Aside from the moral argument: Because not everyone in your life is going to be in the same race/gender/socioeconomic bracket. So even if you benefit from your privilege, people you care about are affected negatively by it. This has two immediate impacts: 1. The lives of people who care about are worse and 2. you will end up having to help care for those people. If a friend of yours can't find a place to live because they're black and gay, and they crash on your couch, that has a direct impact (economic and otherwise) on your life. If your wife or girlfriend can't get good medical care because her insurance doesn't cover an issue specific to women, that has a direct economic impact on your life. If your mother or daughter or sister makes less money because of her gender, that will have an economic impact on your life, direct or indirect. Privilege is only unequivocally beneficial if you surround yourself ONLY with others in your demographic: hence the rise of movements like Men Going Their Own Way, who seek to do that.

You also have to deal with the costs of accessing that privilege. Men lose access to male privilege, in whole or in part, if they don't act in the ways that men are supposed to act, under the same societal rules that enforce their privilege. If a man chooses to take a traditionally female job, like teaching, he loses economic power and privilege. Just as one example. But fighting back against the systems that enforce that privilege also fights back against the costs associated with accessing that privilege.

FactsAreUseless posted:

Yes. That's my point, though. They don't benefit from it in the way they think. That's what we need to demonstrate.

For instance, there are very few households, however conservative, that have one income, which is male. That is no longer a common situation. And if you are a two-income household, with a man and a woman, that woman's earning potential is lower. Raising women's wages doesn't automatically lower men's. If you fight wage discrimination, you raise the income of that entire household. It doesn't zero out. If you have a household that depends on a woman's income, because the man is retired or unemployed or she just earns more of the household income, wage discrimination is hurting the earning power of that whole household. That's why discrimination against women relies on a social narrative that no longer exists. Once you acknowledge economic reality, discrimination against women becomes even more irrational. Misogyny isn't to the benefit of men. It hurts them, in directly measurable economic ways. Not getting into the negative impacts on their ability to have healthy, happy relationships. Misogyny does economic harm to men. That's an important argument to make, loudly and clearly, and very often.

Obviously these are not the only issues to discuss in this thread, I just started it to stop derailing the feminism thread. But please discuss the impacts of patriarchy, etc. on men in this thread, as well as the role of men in feminism, etc. This is not a thread for misogyny or for men to rail against feminism or how it's not equal or whatever. But it is the thread for Just Asking Questions (if they're real questions).

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 01:46

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 15:38

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Black Baby Goku posted:

How is it "not very feminist" to discuss issues about Men in relation to feminism?

It's not very feminist to drown out the ability for women to discuss their issues in a feminist discussion. Like by definition. Since SA is a largely male forum, and there are lots of legitimate things for men to discuss, you can have totally valuable conversation that silences women's voices. And silencing women is uh... un-feminist. But we don't want to just make that discussion against the rules, because it's a legitimate subject. So this is the solution.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 01:51

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Black Baby Goku posted:

So it silences women by bringing up a topic in the feminism thread that doesn't involve women? Are men and women not allowed to discuss issues that may not be from the place of their sex or lived experiences? Just seems silly to me but whatever. Thanks for answering.

I have an answer to this, but I'm having trouble phrasing it in a way that I'm satisfied with. I've erased this post a bunch of times and no promises that it makes any sense. Hopefully someone who's better at these things can express this better. But basically: there are a lot of societal factors that essentially add up to women having to think about where they're allowed to contribute their opinions, but men never do. Since, in a patriarchal society, men have more avenues to express themselves, it's important that feminist discussions carve out a space for women. Combine that with simple numbers - Something Awful is overwhelmingly men, way more so than our society as a whole - and it would be easy to have a feminism thread in which only men contribute. Which isn't feminist, because part of feminism is ensuring that women are able to speak and be heard.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 02:03

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

That post is a pretty perfect example of how patriarchy victimizes men. Not, and I want to be clear here, in the same ways or to the same extent as women. But it still couches a ton of harmful assumptions in the language of strength and weakness that is part of a patriarchal culture.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 23:25

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Also the real woman thing borrows that same language, but like... I'm not going to criticize a trans woman for how she perceives herself, even if I disagree, because I am not a trans woman.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 23:27

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

I suspect strongly, but would need an actual psychologist or sociologist or something to back this up, that you see increased suicide rates in men because men are culturally encouraged to not express emotion. So more men are pushed to that level of desperation. But that's very much an offhand hypothesis.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 23:33

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Zachack posted:

If young men harmed by patriarchal structures are turning to spaces where they become radicalized then I don't think vocalizing their suffering as less important is a good way to keep them away from those spaces. Their suffering may be globally less, and neither does the suffering need to be glorified, but would your statement have been any less if you removed the second sentence?

I just don't want to make those two things equivalent because they're not. They just aren't. They're parallel issues that share a source, but the degree is different. Men aren't disproportionately victims of sexual and domestic violence. Men don't earn less money, they don't have less sexual freedom, they don't face the same body pressures, they don't have to dress in ways that literally physically harm them. Men have plenty of legitimate problems in a patriarchal society, but they aren't equivalent to the problems women face. So I'm not delegitimizing men's issues: I'm making sure that doesn't happen to women's issues.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 23:37

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Like high heels alone are an insane thing. Insane. They are very bad for your feet, legs, hips, and back. They cause medical problems. And yet women are required to wear them not only to look hot, but even to look professional. This is so universally accepted that it's just part of how women have to dress for work. Want a raise? Want a promotion? You'd better wear heels every day. You see this discussion happening in women's discussion spaces. Take a look at, for example, the Female Fashion Advice subreddit, which I'm familiar with because my girlfriend follows it. Men don't have an equivalent problem, and that's not even in the top 10 problems women face in American society (which I assume this thread is basically discussing), let alone others.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 23:40

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Perestroika posted:

Another factor (at least in the US) appears to be the method of suicides. Generally speaking it appears that women and men actually have similar rates of suicidal thoughts and attempts. However, men tend to gravitate to methods that are relatively more likely to succeed, most prominently guns which make up more than half of successful male suicides. Women on the other hand are more likely to go for poison or overdoses of medication, which offer a greater chance of survival and consequentially actual treatment.

Quick source: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.pdf

I've heard these stats a few times, but haven't ever seen a theory as to why. Is it just that men are more likely to own guns, for instance?

Guavanaut posted:

If it were just that though, you wouldn't see increased parasuicide rates in women above that of the suicide rate in men.

That possibly points to there being more women than men who wish to end their lives, but that women are conditioned to believe that they have less bodily autonomy over the matter than men do, and/or that men are more conditioned that they have to 'do it right if they do it at all, no half measures'. Both are different and toxic attitudes arising from patriarchal society.

Unfortunately a lot of the male-focused suicide prevention campaigns seem to think that just talking more will reduce the disparity between male and female suicide rates, ignoring the parasuicides and their consequences, rather than any attempt to address root causes.

Or that it has become a culturally accepted - if harmful - way for women to express emotion. The idea of attempting suicide for "attention" exists in our culture, but only for women. But again, I don't know this for sure. It's an idea I have, that's all. But I agree with all your points, especially the middle paragraph.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 23:47

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Guy Goodbody posted:

But this is a thread for men's issues. I think we should feel like we can discuss men's issues without adding *of course women have it much worse all the time to every post. Considering how gross most Men's Rights discussions on the internet are, I understand you want to avoid this place turning into MRA chat. But I think that's not very likely to happen in D&D.

Yeah, this is fair.

Beowulfs_Ghost posted:

Also, women have their own set of pressures towards hiding emotions. Men may be encouraged to be stoic, but women are encouraged to smile and be pleasant. And the stigma of a mental health issue is bad no matter what your gender.

Also a very good point.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 23:56

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Mister Adequate posted:

Hard to have less sexual freedom than I, a goon, and thus a neckbearded perma-virgin

"Freedom from is greater than freedom to." -- Margaret Atwood

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 00:39

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

This is what happens when I sleep.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 12:41

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Guy Goodbody posted:

I wanna make this clear. Here is my suggestion for how to deal with inequitable division of household chores: When two people start cohabitating, they should sit down and decide how to divide up the chores in a way that they both think is fair. That should happen at the start of the cohabitation. If they cannot come up with an agreement that is satisfactory to them both, them they probably shouldn't cohabitate.

The last sentence definitely isn't true. The problem with this is similar to the issues you get with women negotiating wages: women often don't have the skills or social position to negotiate things up front like that. It also just isn't how moving in with someone works.

Relationships are work. Even between two people who love and respect each other - and the point I'm making relies on the assumption that we're talking about a healthy relationship, because if not then there are way more fundamental issues to address before you even get to the housework stuff. But even healthy, happy relationships have problems. The housework thing isn't a universal law. It's just a common issue in otherwise totally fine relationships. It has been in mine, and I've been with the same partner for years. Why? Because I hadn't been shouldered with the housework for my entire family for years. I just didn't recognize how much there was to do or what needed to be taken care of. When I lived alone, poo poo just didn't get done. This doesn't make me, or any of the tons and tons of men in my same position, a bad person/partner/etc. It's just a thing that has to be worked on. You don't go into a relationship with everything being perfect and smooth from the start. You might not even know there are problems. But tons of couples fail when they start living together, and housework can be a major part of the problem, up there with money. This is just a situation where, most of the time, it's men who have to put in more effort to catch up to their partners. That's all. Yes, it can be overwhelming. You might feel like you don't know how to do the work properly, or like your partner will be disappointed, or there's too much to do, or whatever. You just try to get better at it. Part of that means recognizing just how much extra work women are doing on a daily basis in the form of household chores.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 12:56

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Lt. Danger posted:

Agreed, and a good solution to the warped and stunted male understanding of housework is, at the start of cohabiting, to have a direct and comprehensive conversation about household responsibilities, ideally with some kind of rota or chore list or something that people can point to when they see their partner is shirking.

You can't just do it at the start. It has to be an ongoing conversation. Otherwise you're just asking her to be able to lay out what needs to be done ahead of time, and do the work of organizing it. It's an everyday problem. So you have to tackle it every day.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 15:05

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

rudatron posted:

So I think it's really funny that my clear, concise, precise and intellectual post that described the underlying problem here was completely ignored, but the fly-in-fly-out guy talking about Women-Biologically-Love-Alphas, as if such biological determinism was some kind of stunning new idea that had never been reasoned about or encountered before, gets like 5 people quoting it.

Just to repeat that point I made, because apparently it needs to be made again: if your conception of the problem assumes that, in the majority of cases, the root of the problem is based on 'attitude', then you are poo poo out of luck, because 'attitude' is a property of one's character, and you cannot loving change someone else's character. Don't think you can, you can't, only they can. But you know what you can change? Habits. Expectations. Perspective. The exact poo poo I was referring to in my very first post, to which the reaction of this thread was to flip the gently caress out. Hell, FactsAreUseless, you own experience vindicates my point. You may not have had to use a schedule, but you changed your expectations. Guess what? That's not going to work for everyone. Sometimes, you might just need a system. If you don't, good for you, but don't feel bad if you need it.

Because here's the truth: everyone is flawed. If you're in a relationship with actual human beings, you will have to deal with their flaws, as they deal with yours. If you think the process of 'managing' the other person's flaws is 'beneath you' (oh, why should I mother them!), then every single loving relationship you get into is destined to crash and burn around you, because you couldn't compromise. If the other person has the kind of flaws that you cannot manage, you sever. If the other person has a terrible character, a legitimate problem of attitude, you sever. If there is actually something there, some potential to it, maybe assuming that the only reason your partner is 'loving up' is because they 'hate you' isn't the best starting point.

You are really kicking the poo poo out of that strawman, good for you.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 15:47

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Also I'm not saying that you can never solve anything by writing stuff down more or being more organized. If that helps you communicate better in a relationship, awesome. I just mean that you can't sit down beforehand and hash everything out. It's a continuous process. There's not going to be a single solution, because there's not a single cause. What's important is to just be aware of everything your partner does around the house, and try to do more, and listen without getting defensive about it. However you get that done is great.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 15:50

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

BarbarianElephant posted:

Honest commicators never have this problem because the scenario would go like

"Did you do the dishes? It's your week on the rota."
"Oops! Let me pause my game."

Basically, a non-problem.

This isn't true at all. You're working from the assumption that this is only a thing that happens in Bad Relationships. It's not. A good relationship is not one in which there are no conflicts, or no problems exist.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 15:51

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

BarbarianElephant posted:

This sort of thing can cause Good Relationships to become Bad Relationships. It's like the crack in the glass that eventually causes the whole glass to split.

Resolving conflicts is easy when both people are on the same page, but hard when they are not. Both the people in my example feel like the victim. The put-upon partner feels like a skivvy. The shirking partner feels nagged. How can they resolve this?

Yes, absolutely, it's a problem. We're talking in this thread about ways in which people approach it. I'm just saying it doesn't magically become "a non-problem" because a relationship is good. You have to work at it, same as anything else.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 16:00

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

rudatron posted:

- if that fails, threaten to withhold rewards

What

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 16:01

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

the trump tutelage posted:

So if I'm reading all this right, the real problem is that men aren't socialized as women.

Uh... sure thing, buddy.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 16:17

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

rudatron posted:

Come on, get real, this poo poo happens in actual relationships, it's just never called 'withholding rewards', even when that's exactly what it is. I'm just being blunt about it, using threats is just part of the negotation that goes on.

You've had some terrible relationships.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 16:18

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

The Kingfish posted:

Nah. Saying you won't do something for your SO because they are acting like a jerk is normal and fine.

Fair, I guess it was just the way it was worded.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 16:21

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Look at this poo poo. Again, you assume if there's a problem it must the the women who are wrong. Silly women's vaginas clog up their brains and make them hallucinate chores that don't exist. Or maybe they're just lying about chores to drag men down into their evil femi-lairs.

"After 10,000 years I'm free! Time to trick men into cleaning off the top part of the stove sometimes!" -- Rita Repulsa

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 17:06

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

The Kingfish posted:

Yikes brae. How about you go shitblast on some other thread?

I'm just going to stop this slapfight before it starts and say that if someone thinks another poster is being too aggressive, they can report it or PM a mod.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 17:08

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Nevvy Z posted:

What if the husband is the cleaner one and the wife is the slob?

Then great? Nobody is saying that this is some universal constant, it's just a trend that ties into gender norms and men's behavior, which is the kind of thing a thread about feminism and men exists to discuss. What point are you making with this post? "Sometimes things are different?" Yeah, no poo poo.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 17:09

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Nevvy Z posted:

Honestly I was just trying to distract from this constant "i can't read her mind"/"you are a monster" yelling past each other.

Nobody on either side is saying this. Nearly all of the discussion, contentious as it might be, has been on the best way to address the issue.

falcon2424 posted:

People should start by assuming the problem like a communication issue (which is fixable) rather than an apathy or malice issue (which is unfixable)

People are saying it's an issue of socialization and awareness, not that men are comically evil Jabba-monsters crawling around the floor like slugs. One of the solutions being proposed is to start teaching boys to clean early in life, the same way we do for girls.

Obviously communication is also important.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 17:13

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

rudatron posted:

Actually, the word that was used was 'attitude', and I can quote some posts itt if you like.

Attitudes are a consequence of underlying beliefs and ideas, they aren't "unfixable."

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 17:15

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

twodot posted:

If we think there's a problem where men are bad at or unwilling to clean due to early socialization, discussing that problem purely in the context of monogamous heterosexual relationships seems very weird.

I understand this, but it's just not something I can speak to otherwise. I have no idea what the dynamics are like in queer relationships. What we do know is that, statistically, it's an issue in straight ones. And since feminism is often about the ways in which men treat women, it's relevant.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 17:34

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

OwlFancier posted:

Cooking even a fairly simple meal for myself and doing the washing afterwads would probably take an hour if I didn't clean the kitchen, hour and 15 if I did, hour and 30 if we include the stuff you don't clean everyday in the kitchen but need to after a while because it gets dirty through use.

Brah. Just microwave some Cheffy B.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 17:49

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

rscott posted:

I've been doing all the household chores in the places I've lived since I was eight years old, again you are tilting at windmills

And yet you seem completely baffled that it takes time to cook a meal.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 18:04

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

It's also pretty much the worst possible response. "Women often have to do way more household chores than men." "Pfft, cooking doesn't even take long."

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 18:06

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

rscott posted:

It's not something I really pay attention to because I enjoy cooking and I clean up after myself while I'm doing it

Cool, great, awesome. What's your point? What does that have to do with the discussion?

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 18:07

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Seriously, though? I'm great at doing chores. Because of my penis. My powerful penis and cis-balls make me a strong chore-performer, and seeing people question that does NOT make me cry, not even a small amount.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 18:10

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

rudatron posted:

But, if you believe that they will not, if you truly believe that te majority of men do what you say they do, honestly, then yes. If that is your honest belief you are compelled by the logic of that belief to never enter into a relationship with a men, and you must leave any you have now, because by your own logic, women cannot be in relationships with men.

Are you a loving robot? Jesus, you're so dumb. What TB is saying, specifically, is that this is not a problem that "makes men unfit to be in a relationship," and that by saying it does you deny heterosexual women agency. She's just saying it's a problem that can be solved. You're completely misreading someone's statement and then saying "BEEP BOOP WHAT ABOUT MY SMART LOGIC BRAIN."

If anyone thinks I'm being too aggressive, PM me about me. Furthermore: [fart noise]

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 18:13

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Okay. What about the guy who says, "I don't see dirt like you do, so let's find a compromise we can both live with, in terms of work put in relative to standard of cleanliness we achieve"? (In a more natural way of course. )

That's exactly what is being asked of men.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 21:04

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Okay. The way people have been talking about it it kinda seems like the discussion should be about the division of labor solely, not also the total amount.

Oh I see, your argument is that her standards must be ridiculous, so they just need to clean less, right? loving lmao, man. Thanks for proving all the points about men not respecting their partners' feelings. Haha. Dumbass.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 21:14

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

You are the densest, most obstinate, selfish, condescending poster in this thread. You don't get to play Reasonable Moderate

False, it's me. But nobody can say that because I'm an admin.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 21:20

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

You may be the most massive but that doesn't mean you're necessarily the densest

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 21:24

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

OwlFancier posted:

Personally I would suggest that everyone should be socialized female because I don't know of any masculine traits that perform outside of dominating others, which i don't consider to be a positive end. But that's somewhat tangential to the argument.

Dividing human traits into feminine and masculine and blanket writing off one or the other is a bad idea in ways I know you're smart enough to see.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 21:26

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 15:38

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Grow up dude. It is in fact possible that both standards are perfectly reasonable, unless we are to assume that there is just one true Standard of Cleanliness? (That all women apparently agree on.)

Then what are the two positions between which you would compromise to reduce total work?

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 21:36

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

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