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wateroverfire posted:My fiance had a successful and highly paid career that she decided to put on hold for reasons. It pisses me off when the Wokest of the Woke people I know criticize or look down on 1) her for deciding to stay home instead of running with that and 2) me for not encouraging her to be a Strong Independant Woman. Who exactly tells you that? Without knowing the "reasons" (kids?) it's hard to say whether they are concerned for a friend who seems to be getting isolated, or whether they are being unreasonable.
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Dec 28, 2016 19:26
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Guy Goodbody posted:Of course there's gonna be a guy who just doesn't care and wants to drink beer and watch the game, but that guy is an rear end in a top hat. If we're starting from the assumption that all men are Ray Romano-style sitcom dads and know they aren't pulling their share but don't care because they're assholes, then gently caress it, sterilize all men and just have women reproduce through cloning. This was culturally normal 50 years ago. Culture doesn't change simply be expecting everyone "not to be an rear end in a top hat." It also happens in lesser ways than the standard sitcom dad. For instance, a man might be happy to do his share of the dishes (not hard work, visibly improves his environment) but never scrubs a toilet (unpleasant work that can be easily ignored.)
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Dec 29, 2016 04:11
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Guy Goodbody posted:I think you're way off base in assuming that lack of concern about the relationship or the partner or misogyny is the only reason someone doesn't do their share of the housework. Coming up with an equitable division of chores and writing it down is just good common sense. Otherwise you've got both people just sort of doing whatever, and it's basically guaranteed that they're gonna have different standards of cleanliness. A woman might end up doing all the vacuuming because she thinks you need to vacuum every week and the guy thinks every month, and so he never vacuums just because he always thinks the carpets are fine. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about his wife. My ex used to say this all the time "You just have higher standards than me" he said. So I stopped cleaning. After a couple of weeks he said to me "You know, you say you do housework all the time, but this place is filthy!"
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Dec 29, 2016 04:15
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Guy Goodbody posted:You know what would also solve this problem? Both of the people talking about chores and comping up with an equitable division of labor when they first loving move in together. Nah, he didn't take well to discussing chores. He'd agree to do a chore, then not do it, and when I asked whether he was going to do it (even in the meekest, most feminine way) he would get all het up and say he was going to do it eventually, give him a chance. I could leave it as long as I liked and the thing never got done. Meanwhile, I have never discussed a single chore with my husband, and he just does stuff as he sees it needs doing. Whatta prince!
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Dec 29, 2016 04:23
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Lt. Danger posted:Agreed, and a good solution to the warped and stunted male understanding of housework is, at the start of cohabiting, to have a direct and comprehensive conversation about household responsibilities, ideally with some kind of rota or chore list or something that people can point to when they see their partner is shirking. I don't think you understand that "chore rota" is a document of fiction in most households that argue about housework. The shirking partner will be happy to sign up to a fair rota, but then when it comes to their task, they are "tired" or "had a bad day at work" or "just got a new game" or "went to the pub with friends." Then the put-upon partner gets the joy of nagging - "Did you do the dishes? It's your week on the rota." "Give me a chance, I've been busy." "There are no dishes left, I can't cook dinner. That's my task on the rota this week." "Can't you see this is a boss fight? I'll do it after." "You've been playing 2 hours." "THIS is not the MOMENT. I'll do it when I'm ready." "You could have done it yesterday, the sink was already full then." "FINE." *throws controller, washes dishes angrily* (repeats in 2 weeks)
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Dec 29, 2016 15:12
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Lt. Danger posted:Yes, I suppose if you don't communicate honestly then a strategy of honest communication won't work! This is a separate problem to cultural male incompetence at managing a household and specific to this dysfunctional relationship. So, how could the put-upon partner communicate honestly in this scenario? She/he already drew up a rota and did his/her part of it. The shirking partner agrees to do his/her share but does not. If you can solve this problem you can lower the divorce rate by 10% so I'm eager to hear it!
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Dec 29, 2016 15:35
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Lt. Danger posted:The shirking partner is the one not communicating honestly - agreeing to a division of chores and then not doing it. If this partner is not able to commit to a basic arrangement that's been explicitly spelled out for them in writing, then maybe they are not capable of an equal relationship? Regardless, it has nothing to do with the efficacy of honest communication. Honest commicators never have this problem because the scenario would go like "Did you do the dishes? It's your week on the rota." "Oops! Let me pause my game." Basically, a non-problem. The issue is how to deal with this when people are not honest communicators. I never did figure this out. I would be interested to know the solution, because this very scenario kills lots of otherwise great relationships. The nagging and the shirking creates an atmosphere of hostility. I wouldn't be surprised if my ex tells people something like "She was such a nag! The moment I sat down to relax and play a game she was all like, do the dishes, do the vacuuming. And she had much higher standards than me, so I couldn't even tell they were dirty!"
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Dec 29, 2016 15:49
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FactsAreUseless posted:This isn't true at all. You're working from the assumption that this is only a thing that happens in Bad Relationships. It's not. A good relationship is not one in which there are no conflicts, or no problems exist. This sort of thing can cause Good Relationships to become Bad Relationships. It's like the crack in the glass that eventually causes the whole glass to split. Resolving conflicts is easy when both people are on the same page, but hard when they are not. Both the people in my example feel like the victim. The put-upon partner feels like a skivvy. The shirking partner feels nagged. How can they resolve this?
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Dec 29, 2016 15:59
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Eimi posted:My experience tends to lean on the side of lacking perspective. When I was younger I always had to be told to clean because I literally cannot tell when certain things are dirty, wood floors in particular. Now partially I tuned it out because my father was abusive as gently caress but I've never really interalized cleaning. It's made worse by my depression. If I'm not currently choking to death via dust it clearly doesn't need doing. Sometimes I can manage to clean every week but then my depression hits back and it becomes too bothersome. I know I should clean but by then it morphs into an excuse to hate myself or that I don't deserve anything not lovely. Depression is a whole different issue and please don't feel we are judging you on the basis of your gender/transition. Even the most incredibly clean people let standards slip when they are depressed; lack of energy is part of the illness. When you feel better enough to clean, if you can't tell whether a floor is dirty or not, just get into a regular habit of doing it once a month. That sort of thing doesn't get really disgusting unless neglected for literal months.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:20
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Cleaning is perfectly manly when done in manly contexts. The same guys who "don't see dirt" when at home would polish their gear to within an inch of its life when in the army and not see a contradiction.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:27
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Eimi posted:Thanks and don't worry about me feeling judged or anything, as hey I'm the one putting it out there. I more wanted to try and comment on how much this can be ingrained. Given that I really feel put in the middle of this issue by being on both sides. Like I feel a real pressure to clean now that I didn't feel as much before I began transitioning. It's perfectly possible to be a slob and 100% feminine  I've tried to use as much non-gendered language as I can because sometimes in a relationship it's the woman who is the slob and the man who is the one who picks up after her. My messy ex definitely got his slobbishness from his mother. His parents were separated and her house was filthy where his dad's was as clean as a new pin. I don't know if this was an issue for them (I didn't pry) but I could imagine so.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:32
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Nevvy Z posted:What if the husband is the cleaner one and the wife is the slob? Also same sex couples. This whole conversation is very focused on one specific scenario that may be more common but is far from exclusive. Because it does tend to be more common due to cultural issues. I did bring up a couple I know where the man was neat and the woman was a slob. It happens.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:14
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It's all relative. If you're used to running a "low maintenance household", then having to live up to the standards of a "neat freak" might mean quite a lot of extra work relative to what you're used to. Most neat freaks *enjoy* housework. This is all about ordinary couples doing ordinary amounts of housework. It's rarely about some cruel woman forcing her man to polish her collection of 100 Victorian china shepherdess figurines. It's all about washing the dishes before vermin arrive, or scraping the poo poo off the inside of the toilet. Basic stuff.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:40
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Tesseraction posted:Which is true but the issue is that women should be expected to be the arbiter of what is 'clean' and what is a blatant health hazard. Keeping a minimum standard of hygiene should not be this giant divide that the thread has clearly shown it to be. "Your standards are higher than mine" is the Standard Male Response here. They act like their partner is trying to make them dust her collection of 1,000 priceless Beanie Babies twice a day, when what they mean is "I can stand a slightly thicker layer of poo poo on the toilet than you, knowing that you will crack and clean it before it gets to the point that it bothers me enough to do something about it."
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Dec 29, 2016 18:52
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OwlFancier posted:When you spray piss all over the shitter you should clean it. The worst about this are women hovering over public toilets. Does anyone actually sit on the drat seat except me? Wipe it up, ladies! [Sorry, woman derail]
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Dec 29, 2016 19:05
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You seem to imply that the idea of different standards is basically a ploy made up by men to get out of house work? Often, yes. Quite often unconsciously. They notice that the dirt never gets worse than a certain point, and assume that is natural, when in fact that is the point at which their partner does the cleaning. And even if you *can* stand a filth encrusted toilet, cleaning it is still reasonable. It's not like she's asking you to wash and iron the towels every time you use them. It's a good way to avoid getting sick.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:09
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the trump tutelage posted:So any time a man and a woman have a legitimate disagreement, or simply don't see eye to eye, it is necessarily a feminist issue? It's more like if John wants pepperoni, Jane wants pineapple, and John always wins because he starts a fight if he loses and Jane knows someone needs to be the one who gives in, and they have both been socialized to believe that the woman gives in by default to keep the peace.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:18
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A Buttery Pastry posted:What happens when they both live by themselves? Do you really think they're then putting an equal amount of time into housework, but the moment you put them together the man starts with the power moves to get his gf/wife-mom? Men who live on their own tend to do their own housework. I've not noticed bachelor pads to be worse than spinster dens (apart from the smell of socks LOL), but when two move in together, it always seems to be the woman who cleans most.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:25
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the trump tutelage posted:I don't think anyone's actually discussing that scenario, as much as a tiny brontosaurus tries to catastrophize every male/female interaction. It's pretty much a description of the way my ex and I interacted over housework, so it's not all that farfetched, and its actually quite common - I've met others with similar problems. I almost always gave in because cleaning was easier than arguing. My ex did not pout and flip out that way with his male friends. He was reasonable and accommodating. Part of the problem is the boring grind of housework. He'd be happy to help a pal clean out a garage because that happens only once in a blue moon. He was *not* happy to do the tedious thankless housework that needs to be done every day/week.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:35
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I am happy and everything is fine.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:45
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OwlFancier posted:Happily, feminism already provides an answer to that question: "it may well be because there are socialized trends between men and women which encourage different values, and these differences can be and often are combative, in the interests of a better society we should attempt to resolve this conflict, and examine whether these socialized values are productive." Feminism also encourages women to examine their own issues. Back in the old days, it would be normal for a good housewife to scrub her doorstep every single day. Feminism encouraged women to drop bullshit busywork like that. When's the last time you starched a collar? However, the basics like washing dishes, clothes, toilets, cooking food are something that still has to be done, and treating vacuuming the floors weekly as the same level of unreasonable busywork as polishing the bannisters daily is insulting and probably insincere.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:57
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Talking about housework is a great way to get men to start bragging about how dense and unobservant they are. "I am literally physically incapable of seeing details p.s. only men should be doctors" Brilliant! "I left the gauze inside the patient but that was because I don't see little details like that. The nurse should have been paying more attention. She kept nagging me about it but it was so distracting I told her to shut up. So it's her fault the patient died."
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Dec 29, 2016 20:05
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the trump tutelage posted:Or, in the above scenario, why it's the responsibility of the man to become more cleanly and not the woman to relax her standards. I tried this with my slobbish ex. I gave up cleaning for a while and he soon started whinging about how dirty everything was and he couldn't find any clean dishes. Didn't make him clean, though. If women suddenly started dumping every slobbish boyfriend I wonder what guys like you would think. Would it be something like "Crazy feminists would rather die alone with their cats than wash some Y-Fronts"?
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Dec 29, 2016 20:11
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The converse of that is if you were never taught to care about housework, or at least not to a great degree, then your brain might simply not bother truly processing all those signs of a house in need of cleaning. So... we convinced you then?
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Dec 29, 2016 20:29
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A Buttery Pastry posted:?? My argument is that this is an entirely unconscious thing, thus there doesn't have to be any malice or conniving plan to avoid housework involved, merely a brain not conditioned for housework. Exactly! We all know what to call a guy who says "Housework is women's work. You do it." We call him an rear end in a top hat and leave him. The more subtle problem comes with a guy that says "I don't see dirt like you do. If it bothers you, clean it, but I'm not doing it until it's dirty enough to bother me. I have better things to do with my time. It's not my fault you have such high standards." He's essentially saying the same as the first guy but *unconsciously, without malice.* That makes him harder to deal with.
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Dec 29, 2016 20:58
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Okay. What about the guy who says, "I don't see dirt like you do, so let's find a compromise we can both live with, in terms of work put in relative to standard of cleanliness we achieve"? (In a more natural way of course. If it is reasonable, fair and he sticks to it, fine. But I've never heard it as anything but an excuse for doing nothing, doing a lot less, or requiring constant nagging and rows to a fair share.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:09
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OwlFancier posted:Personally I would suggest that everyone should be socialized female because I don't know of any masculine traits that perform outside of dominating others, which i don't consider to be a positive end. But that's somewhat tangential to the argument. Well, this is the men's thread! So I find it interesting. What are the positive masculine virtues? It's OK if women have them too because plenty of men have traditionally "feminine" virtues like caring, nurturing and emotional empathy. I'd say that "boldness" is the "masculine" virtue I admire most. I would define this as taking big risks to do something new and worthwhile.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:30
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:This comes from my experience living in former communist countries: What do the men in these countries do? Lounge around producing sperm?
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Dec 29, 2016 21:51
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Burlesque is a good alternative to strip clubs. At least where I am, it's pretty arty, and the burlesque performers I personally know are also the most committed feminists I know.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:44
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| # ¿ May 22, 2024 07:03 |
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Mormon Star Wars posted:At the high school I attended, one of the coaches called a school wide meeting of all the male students in order to attempt to shame them into signing up for the football team. This included open statements that men who played in band were gay and that if you didn't want to be gay it was necessary to sign up for football. You are a lot less likely to get a serious concussion at band club. So boys who aren't fools would be well advised to avoid football. There are plenty of sports that won't give you brain damage. as this becomes more widely known I can see the scene you describe becoming quite common as boys desperately try to avoid catching the eye of the football coach since brain damage is no fun.
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Jan 2, 2017 14:28
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