Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

Pellisworth posted:

I don't but would be really interested in reading some good articles on it.

There's also a lot of racism, ageism, body shaming that goes on. MASC4MASC no fems fats or asians under 30 only.

Of course that's not true everywhere and for all of the subcultures but in my experience there's a lot of really unhealthy pressures and attitudes.

What's wrong with making you preferences in partners clear? If somebody has zero romantic/sexual interest in overweight people, why is it a problem for them to say so when they're looking for a romantic/sexual partner?

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 22:04

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 22, 2024 12:45

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

Popoi posted:

Preferences aren't formed in a vacuum. If one guy says "Hey I'm not that in to asian guys" it's probably not worth worrying too much about. If it's a substantial majority of guys, it seems likely there's something going on culturally that's worth pushing back against.

What is the cultural phenomenon that leads to white men being insufficiently attracted to Asian men? Are Asian men viewed as less masculine?

FactsAreUseless posted:

I just don't want to make those two things equivalent because they're not. They just aren't. They're parallel issues that share a source, but the degree is different. Men aren't disproportionately victims of sexual and domestic violence. Men don't earn less money, they don't have less sexual freedom, they don't face the same body pressures, they don't have to dress in ways that literally physically harm them. Men have plenty of legitimate problems in a patriarchal society, but they aren't equivalent to the problems women face. So I'm not delegitimizing men's issues: I'm making sure that doesn't happen to women's issues.

But this is a thread for men's issues. I think we should feel like we can discuss men's issues without adding *of course women have it much worse all the time to every post. Considering how gross most Men's Rights discussions on the internet are, I understand you want to avoid this place turning into MRA chat. But I think that's not very likely to happen in D&D.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2016 23:47

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

So we need more muscular shirtless Asian men in movies and TV

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 00:10

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

the trump tutelage posted:

It's okay to call someone on their bullshit, even if they are of a marginalized group. "Personal truth" is just another way of saying "opinion".

I think there's an important distinction to be made. Blue Star personally doesn't see herself as a real woman. I'm not gonna argue with her about that. That's her own self image, and it's the business of herself and the IRL people who know and care about her, not some rando on the internet. If Blue Star said that all trans women aren't real women, then she's making a statement about an entire group of people, and it's reasonable to argue with her about that.

If Ben Carson says he doesn't experience racism in his life, fine. If Ben Carson says black people don't experience racism, then that's an issue

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 00:43

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

And who should do that labor, the woman or the man.

The labor of making the system? Both of the people in the household should work together to come up with a system that divides the household chores equitably.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 03:15

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

So you didn't read the article then

The Politics of Housework? I read it. I'm not sure how it disproves my answer.

If the couple shouldn't work together to decide how to divvy up the housework, that should be left to the man?

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 03:25

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

If these are your information processing skills I honestly don't think communication is going to fix anything, since the article you claim to read very clearly states that they did start out with a plan to divvy up the housework, which mysteriously did not solve the problem. I'd quote it for you, but I'm not your wife, so do your own work.

Even though we aren't married, I'm willing to quote stuff for you anyway. It's really no trouble

here's what Rudatron said

rudatron posted:

The solution? Make a system. Record keeping, objective data. That's literally the first step you do. Not the last resort, the first. Don't be stand-off about it, just do it.

and here's what the lady from the article said

quote:

why shouldn't we share the housework? So I suggested it to my mate and he agreed

So Pat got a verbal agreement for some unspecified sharing of housework. Rudatron suggests coming up with an objective system where both parties agree to specific things and records are kept. You might not see the distinction there, but it's very important!

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 03:33

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

I'm gonna fast-forward to the end here since poor helpless babymen need everything spoon-fed to them apparently: If you aren't doing your share of the work, saying "you just need to manage me better" is not a solution. That wouldn't fly at your job so you have no business thinking it would fly at home.

You are an adult, you should not need your partner to write you out a chore chart like you're a toddler. The chore chart doesn't make you do your housework, you do. A chore chart doesn't solve the problem of ignoring the work, or of demanding to be "taught how" every time something needs doing, or of whining to your partner that she's just so much better than you are at all those boring unpleasant jobs so why doesn't she do them, or of telling her any jobs you don't want to do really don't need to be done at all and why is she so unreasonable about it. You know, the things the article you're pretending you read was about.

Rudatron has a long track record of being a sexist idiot and if you guys are going to buy into the sexist idiots' take on every issue FAU should just close this thread now because it will be an MRA cesspit by the end of the week.

Sexism and toxic masculinity are very very deeply ingrained into our society. If you're going to try and solve that, you need to be very suspicious of any solution that sounds comfortable to you, because our society's current comfort zone about gender roles is poison.

This is why I suggested that both the man and the woman work together to come up with a division of labor that both can agree with. That's what I said when you asked who would do the labor of divvying up the housework. Because, yeah, you're right, if the woman just assigns the guy a bunch of chores, that's probably not gonna work out great. You're arguing against something I never said

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 03:50

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

OwlFancier posted:

If one partner is having an issue with the other not pulling their weight, then the issue is with the one not doing the work being unwilling to do it, assuming, not unreasonably, that the other has mentioned the issue before this point.

Whether you sit down together and write a rota is not really the point, the point is that the one not doing the work is going to have to internalize the need to change, at which point they should be quite willing and able to do their work without getting it signed off and documented.

The documentation process is entirely irrelevant to the resolution of the issue.

But a chore chart is very helpful for making the guy understand the issue. If they already agreed who would do what, it's a lot easier to get someone to recognize that they are shirking their agreed upon duties. As opposed to something vague, like you don't do enough housework. It also makes clear how much work the woman is doing.

Of course there's gonna be a guy who just doesn't care and wants to drink beer and watch the game, but that guy is an rear end in a top hat. If we're starting from the assumption that all men are Ray Romano-style sitcom dads and know they aren't pulling their share but don't care because they're assholes, then gently caress it, sterilize all men and just have women reproduce through cloning.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 04:01

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Yes and as I have said in very clear words written right here in this thread in English (what was that about "communication skills"?) , a chore chart is not the solution. The man in the article, whom you very obviously act just like, did not shirk his chores because they weren't written down for him. You don't do whatever filthy lazy dickheaded things you do because you don't have a checklist either. If that was the problem, a big swingin' dick like you could probably use some of your throbbing brainpower to write himself a list, couldn't he?

You are doing the exact thing the article is about, right here. Learned helplessness. You're pretending you can't read, can't understand, that the problem with your obstinance is only that a woman has failed to cater to you enough. FAU put together a nice thread to help you be less godawful in this way. Why did you click on it if you aren't interested in learning anything?

I gotta be honest, I'm just happy whenever a woman talks about my big swingin' dick and throbbing brainpower

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 04:03

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

OwlFancier posted:

It does have its appeal.

I suppose I am perhaps being overly charitable in assuming that both partners in the relationship might be actually concerned with the wellbeing of each other and generally a sign of that is being willing to put some effort in?

Like, if my other half has to write me a sheet of instructions of things to do in order to get me to pull my weight I'm doing something very very wrong in the relationship.

I think you're way off base in assuming that lack of concern about the relationship or the partner or misogyny is the only reason someone doesn't do their share of the housework. Coming up with an equitable division of chores and writing it down is just good common sense. Otherwise you've got both people just sort of doing whatever, and it's basically guaranteed that they're gonna have different standards of cleanliness. A woman might end up doing all the vacuuming because she thinks you need to vacuum every week and the guy thinks every month, and so he never vacuums just because he always thinks the carpets are fine. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about his wife.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 04:11

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

No dude, this is exactly what that article you lied about reading is about. You are an adult. You already "understand the issue." You just don't like the solution to the issue, which is doing chores. You are employing learned helplessness, pretending you're too feebleminded to comprehend something entirely simple that you have no trouble with in other contexts.

Again, you are doing a very fundamental thing that is very obvious to everyone but you: There is a problem with your behavior: You don't do your share of chores. The solution you propose is for your SO to change her behavior to make up for your choice not to contribute. Your SO can make you a chart, draw you a picture, do an interpretive dance, or write it in the sky, but if you want to be a spoiled lazy rear end in a top hat you're still going to be one, because the problem is with you. You are in charge of what you do. Not anyone else.

And this, my friends and crazy internet MRA stalkers, is toxic masculinity.

I wanna make this clear. Here is my suggestion for how to deal with inequitable division of household chores: When two people start cohabitating, they should sit down and decide how to divide up the chores in a way that they both think is fair. That should happen at the start of the cohabitation. If they cannot come up with an agreement that is satisfactory to them both, them they probably shouldn't cohabitate.

Also, I don't think making this personal is productive. You don't know me, and I don't know you, so let's not make assumptions about each other.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 04:16

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

BarbarianElephant posted:

My ex used to say this all the time "You just have higher standards than me" he said. So I stopped cleaning. After a couple of weeks he said to me "You know, you say you do housework all the time, but this place is filthy!"

OwlFancier posted:

Assuming his wife has a tongue and he ears, I would assume that she might mention to him that he doesn't vacuum much.

Or perhaps, had he eyes, he might notice that she does quite a lot of it and wonder if perhaps this might be because she likes the house to be that vacuumed.

I again grant that I may not have the same concept of a relationship as you but perhaps if you like a person enough to live with them you might engage your brain at some point along that line and ask if perhaps your other half might like you to do the vacuuming this time? Rather than sit in presumed astonishment as they work around you, marvelling because it is not currently the time for vacuuming and yet vacuuming is occuring.

You know what would also solve this problem? Both of the people talking about chores and comping up with an equitable division of labor when they first loving move in together.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 04:18

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Again you loving moron, there's an article you lied about reading that explains why this doesn't work. And no assumptions needed dude, you are being a giant loving sexist right here in this thread. Any mention of you having an SO is entirely hypothetical. I can only hope no poor woman has to suffer your pigheaded assholery in real life.

Goddamn dude, you need to actually read that article. The lady got her husband to agree to "splitting the housework", there' not a single mention of them actually discussing what that would mean or divvying up specific duties. If anything, it actually is a lesson in the importance of having a chore chart instead of just expecting it to work out organically.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 04:25

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 22, 2024 12:45

Guy Goodbody: Aug 31, 2016; by Nyc_Tattoo

OwlFancier posted:

Actually assuming that your lack of concern for tidiness overrules her concern for cleanliness is quite systematically misogynist.

"It doesn't matter to me, why should I care that it matters to you" is a founding stone of misogyny.

Sounds to me like a situation that could be resolved by the couple having a conversation. Maybe trying to decide what's a reasonable level of cleanliness they both can live with. Maybe figuring out a way to achieve that level that requires an equal amount of effort from both of them. Maybe they could write it down. In chart form. I dunno, just seems like that might work

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 04:33

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.