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blowfish posted:Because obviously privilege invalidates any and all arguments No one said this and being a tool is a good way to get all your arguments invalidated.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:24
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http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/12/so-you-got-called-out-on-facebook/ This is really good and everyone should read it. 
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Dec 28, 2016 22:13
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:He loafs and sulks and whines and takes endlessly while never giving, duh. I'm sure he's dynamite in bed. You are being really hosed up and lovely in this thread. Please stop.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:30
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Aging Millenial posted:I merely raised the fact that men who out-compete other men on masculine terms -- in resource acquisition, in male status games, even in physical capability, etc, tend to get more rewarded by women on sexual terms, because these men's very success on masculine-competition terms appears to trigger female attraction. So on the one hand you have feminists crowing about "toxic masculinity" and on the other you have the reality that men who succeed at the culture of toxic masculinity get to be rewarded sexually. Men should apparently play down their eagerness to be the boss and top dog, but then the boss and top dog tends to more likely get laid, and with more desirable partners as well. Surely this reward system is going to encourage more toxic masculinity. How do you fix this? Not all traditional masculinity is by default "toxic masculinity" and your failure to recognize this is what marks you as a troll or an idiot.
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Dec 29, 2016 14:36
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What if the husband is the cleaner one and the wife is the slob? Also same sex couples. This whole conversation is very focused on one specific scenario that may be more common but is far from exclusive.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:08
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FactsAreUseless posted:Then great? Nobody is saying that this is some universal constant, it's just a trend that ties into gender norms and men's behavior, which is the kind of thing a thread about feminism and men exists to discuss. What point are you making with this post? "Sometimes things are different?" Yeah, no poo poo. Honestly I was just trying to distract from this constant "i can't read her mind"/"you are a monster" yelling past each other.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:10
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twodot posted:If we think there's a problem where men are bad at or unwilling to clean due to early socialization, discussing that problem purely in the context of monogamous heterosexual relationships seems very weird. If the problem only manifests there and not men living on their own or living together in other arrangements, the problem plainly isn't cleaning. This is the other reason I brought up other arrangements, I was having trouble elucidating it as well as you did. This is very much not just a men and women issue, though we all seem to agree that it roots into outmoded concepts of stay at home wives. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:If the woman's the one who started the cleaning conversation and did the mental labor of thinking up what chores need to be done, Let's say each person develops their own list of "things that need done and when". Then compare the lists, compromise on some items "I'll clean the toilet weekly, every single day is too much, you don't need to clean it that much unless you made a big gross mess and then the person making the mess should clean it right after" and then divide the items. Is that an acceptable arrangement of the work of arranging the work?
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Dec 29, 2016 17:48
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Do you think FAU started this thread to help specific individual relationships divvy up the chore chart? How many more versions of "let's say the problem doesn't happen. would you say there's a problem then?" are people going to post in here? Do you think I'm going to hiss my forked straw-feminist tongue at the men who are actually not being lazy sexist assholes just because? Sorry I continue to discuss a way the patriarchy affects men in the thread about how the patriarchy affects men. But you say things like this Tiny Brontosaurus posted:If the woman's the one who started the cleaning conversation and did the mental labor of thinking up what chores need to be done, and the emotional labor of handling manly-man's fragile feelings about the horrible torture of being expected to do chores then yes she very much did. And I'm just trying to sort out where the expectations line is drawn. If my wife doesn't tell me what her expectations of the state of the home are I might have different expectations that don't meet hers, and vice versa. I understand your concerns about how sexism, even though this can happen between any two partners in any direction regardless of sex, can lead to situations where the woman ends up having to do everything or be the one responsible for keeping track of everything, but at some point these differences in expectations have to be communicated and I'm not clear on how since every answer someone has suggested seems to be wrong. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:If a man comes up with a list of chores and then does them, congratulations, he has achieved minimum basic adult competency. But if his list is different from his wife's we're right back to women doing more than their fair share. FAU- it seems unfair to attack someone for responding to a comment you made about them.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:07
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the trump tutelage posted:As far as I've read, you haven't actually made a case for this, but let's assume that it is sexist to expect a woman to make clear her expectations in a relationship, or for the man to fail to anticipate her every want. I really don't think TB is trying to say the first part, but it's coming across that way because "making her expectations clear" is being conflated with "making her responsible for nagging the man to get everything done". As far as I can tell. I just want to sort out the balance of those things, but most suggestions for doing so have been shouted down.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:28
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Tesseraction posted:Unless you're loving your furniture and cooking utensils it's not an 'expectation' of a relationship to clean your bloody house. He's referring to the woman's expecations of the standard of cleanliness the home will be generally kept to. This is a very individual thing.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:30
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Tesseraction posted:Which is true but the issue is that women should be expected to be the arbiter of what is 'clean' and what is a blatant health hazard. Keeping a minimum standard of hygiene should not be this giant divide that the thread has clearly shown it to be. I think the implication is that women have a higher standard, and if they want that standard to be met it has to be communicated. I'd be glad to be the arbiter, but my girlfriend would probably end up moving out because her standards are simply higher than mine. So I will attempt to meet her standards, which I could do more easily if they were communicated clearly, but I don't want to put all the responsibility on her to: Tiny Brontosaurus posted:started the cleaning conversation and did the mental labor of thinking up what chores need to be done, and the emotional labor of handling manly-man's fragile feelings about the horrible torture of being expected to do chores Please forgive shifted tenses.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:37
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Jarmak posted:That's exactly what has been being proposed and then twisted into being some sort horrible sexist idea by TB. I think the confusion here is the context of the article about this couple for whom the proposed system absolutely did not work (because the man was doofus) being the framework from which TB is approaching the topic, where other posters were trying to step outside of that framework to come up with a solution which was then attacked for failing in the framework of the article. This wasn't necessarily obvious, partly because of the way TB attacks things, so it just came across as TB ripping every proposed solution without seeming to offer one other than "read the OP". The thing I suggested doing that was totally fine sounded a lot like thing other people were suggesting doing that was misogynist as gently caress and I think it's just a confusion of context. It is good for men and women to work together and distribute chores equitably, but men should be very wary of pitfalls in their perceptions of what is equitable.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:49
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FactsAreUseless posted:I'm saying your position relies on cleanliness being optional, and the assumption that a reasonable standard for cleaning is found by averaging out his standards and hers. Which assumes that her standard is unnecessarily high. Which is exactly what people have been saying about men dismissing their partners' concerns as not being real. That's literally the opposite though. If her concerns aren't real then we don't average hers and mine, I just ignore her unreal concerns. Compromise implicitly accepts that validity of her concerns.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:59
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Strip clubs make me really sad. I'm too woke to enjoy them.
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Jan 2, 2017 00:19
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The Kingfish posted:Nobody is defending the idea that pranking is bad. Like, with arguments. Except Owlfancier who is claiming that pain is a bad thing by default. That's not true, TB tried to tie pranking to racist arson attacks.
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Jan 2, 2017 19:42
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