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botany posted:No they don't. Men among themselves are far more ready to assume a basic level of competency in others than they are if they are talking to a woman. I teach seminars, I get to witness this stuff first hand. A male student will be assumed to be baseline competent by default, until he says something dumb enough to change people's minds. A female student will usually have to work to convince people that she has understood the text at a basic level. Women are assumed to be incompetent until they have demonstrated otherwise. None of this is done with malicious intent, but it very much happens. It also has the unfortunate side-effect of being self-perpetuating, i.e., if a female student is talked to like she didn't understand something, she will likely back off and question whether she really missed something, which looks like confirmation to the person explaining to her. Thus the person explaining will feel that they were helpful and will do the same thing again next time. This crap is why I usually ask women in class for help when it's a reasonable option, because usually if I tell a women "I'm loving stupid and don't understand" their response is actual concern and help instead of seeing it as an opportunity to show off how much they know. edit: for context I'm in an electrical engineering program
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Dec 28, 2016 19:25
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Men are also socialized to be more prone to violence, and the manner of suicide men choose are statistically much more violent than those women choose. I wish I could dig it up but I read somewhere that male survivors and female survivors actually report "not actually wanting to die" at similar rates... there's just fewer male survivors.
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Dec 29, 2016 00:01
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rudatron posted:I think that post/article about housework was 50/50, from the standpoint of actually making a fairer home. The implicit assumption is that the reason the work isn't been done is malice, and that, rather than listening to your partner, you have to go through an elaborate 'decoding' ritual, where you replace what they say with what you think they're saying. I think like 90% of these sort of things is failure to communicate at its heart (including failure on the listening end). If you need to make cleaning assignments like it's the loving barracks that's a little weird but I guess whatever it takes.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:16
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:So you didn't read the article then You mean the article that was never posted in this thread?
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Dec 29, 2016 03:22
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:So you didn't read the OP then Alright that's on me I read it in the other thread and forgot it was one of your posts that was quoted in the OP. You can still gently caress off for suggesting any man who thinks he does his fair share of housework is extra for sure sexist.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:30
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rscott posted:Do I have internalized sexism if I live alone and don't make my bed every morning, this is a serious question No it's only internalized sexism if you're a man filling the home maker role or a stay at home dad and do most of the chores
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Dec 29, 2016 04:13
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Good communication is not learned helplessness. If you need a loving Barney-style chore wheel in order to communicate that's a little silly but it's better then not communicating.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:19
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Oh all right then v FFS he wasn't calling you a troll he was talking about the loving visible-from-loving-space MRA poo poo and run troll.
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Dec 29, 2016 09:46
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yes, it may surprise you to know that I did in fact read the post I quoted. Did you read the post you quoted? It may surprise you to learn that when you act like a sarcastic hateful rear end in a top hat in 99% of your posts the 1% when you are being sincere sometimes slip through the cracks.
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Dec 29, 2016 09:50
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I know D&D is the easiest to troll but holy poo poo
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Dec 29, 2016 10:12
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The main value in writing poo poo down in this case is the ability to cut through a potential hang up with a guy who underestimates the women's burden. BarbarianElephant posted:So, how could the put-upon partner communicate honestly in this scenario? She/he already drew up a rota and did his/her part of it. The shirking partner agrees to do his/her share but does not. The problem in your scenario is that the partner is a straight up rear end in a top hat and no amount of communication is going to fix anything because they aren't interested in an adult relationship.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:46
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FactsAreUseless posted:You are really kicking the poo poo out of that strawman, good for you. What strawman? BarbarianElephant posted:Honest commicators never have this problem because the scenario would go like You said they were your ex, that's how I would deal with them. If you can't have honest communication with your partner without them lying to your face about their responsibilities in the relationship then you're missing like steps one through five of required elements of a relationship.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:56
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BarbarianElephant posted:Cleaning is perfectly manly when done in manly contexts. The same guys who "don't see dirt" when at home would polish their gear to within an inch of its life when in the army and not see a contradiction. I was going to say men can see dirt just fine when there's going to be a room inspection in the morning. I used to be bad about what you're talking about, my relationship has gone through phases. At first my wife was unemployed and I was working 12 hour days or worse, so it was very 1950s labor division I'd say something like "I'm too tired" and the response was usually something like "sit down I'll make you a drink". Then she got a job on base and daily upkeep stuff became part of my share of chores instead of big ticket weekend stuff and then "I'm too tired" became a fight. Basically that lasted a short time before we had a long talk about it and I realized I had to adjust my attitude and realize I wasn't the only one who was tired. Finally I got out and went to college and she has a high-powered career so it's totally flipped and I'm the one who's responsible for the house and she's the one that "helps". The naggee has become the nagger. Communication and mutual respect is the key. Frankly if you don't have that then you're hosed no matter the politics of the situation. Edit: thanks for learning new words so fast autocorrect Jarmak fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 16:51
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rscott posted:OK honestly how much extra poo poo is there to do, we have to be talking about a couple hours a week tops unless you have kids Lol I do a couple hours of house work a day just to tread water I mean that covers like dinner and dinner cleanup.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:11
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:If you were the communication expert you think you are you wouldn't need me to repeat myself so often, would you. If a man is supposed to be doing something and isn't, the problem isn't communication. It is bullshit sexism making you assume that women didn't communicate the problem, that they don't do that constantly, with varying strategies. It is bullshit sexism making you think that a man not doing his share of the work can blame his SO for not asking him clearly enough. Adults don't need to be asked to do their responsibilities, they just do them. Wives and girlfriends are not their SO's mommies. You're not even twisting people's words at this point, you're straight up just making poo poo up. You took his statement of "the man is too much of a child to be in a mature relationship" and turned it into "it's the woman's fault for picking a man that is a child". Like no, no one said that, no one implied that, you're just making poo poo up.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:40
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:You've been a pigheaded idiot for every single page of this thread so I don't expect you to suddenly decide to let the concept being discussed here actually enter your brain, but the entire loving problem here is there's a pattern that men want to treat as an infinite series of one-off standalone special cases. Within a relationship there's a pattern of a man not doing his chores because each time he had a really good excuse, and within the world there's a pattern of relationships containing men who act like that. Yeah, just making poo poo up again, this time you've taken "man sounds like toxic (possibly even sexist) rear end in a top hat, only solution is to sever" and magically turned it into "it's the woman's fault for not figuring out how to solve his toxic bullshit". All you're doing is taking people's statements and fiating in the most racist/sexist subtext you can think of with no basis whatsoever so you can feel justified posting hateful abusive crap. rscott posted:Cooking for two people? Eh I spend probably on average an hour cooking and a half hour doing dishes and cleaning up. The nights I cook quick easy things balance out with the nights I decide to do something that takes hours, I'm also factoring in grocery-run time. Throw in another half hour of random cleanup around the house and I've already spent two hours just breaking even.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:55
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:This is exactly the kind of poo poo we're talking about. Instead of just doing the work, you're arguing whether the work needs to be done. If a woman thinks a thing and you don't, she must be wrong. Because women are stupid. So you realize he started arguing with me right? He was telling me, a man, how much time I spend cooking.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:56
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At the point where we're turning gender norms and statistics into caricature s of maliciously toxic people and then generalizing that into "what men are like" that's no longer a cultural criticism, or some sort of sociological statistical analysis. It's just bad faith bigoted bullshit for the purpose of scoring points by punching up. It would be instantly called out as such in any other instance.FactsAreUseless posted:That's exactly what is being asked of men. That's exactly what has been being proposed and then twisted into being some sort horrible sexist idea by TB.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:40
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stone cold posted:What are you even talking about? I didn't get to reply earlier because, ironically enough, I've been busy doing housework all day. But back where I last posted the suggestion that open communication should help it was countered by painting the hypothetical chore conflict as more and more outright manipulative and toxic on the man's part. I said that the hypothetical had gone all the way into "immature toxic rear end in a top hat, sever" and TB responded by telling me this was horribly sexist because you see that's what men are like. That's the exact context I was responding to, I felt like the thread had circled the same drain close enough that my response was still relevant outside of original context but gently caress it there it is just for clarity sake.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:04
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FactsAreUseless posted:I'm saying your position relies on cleanliness being optional, and the assumption that a reasonable standard for cleaning is found by averaging out his standards and hers. Which assumes that her standard is unnecessarily high. Which is exactly what people have been saying about men dismissing their partners' concerns as not being real. Not at all, you seem to have some hosed up idea that there's one true and pure cleanliness standard instead of there being a wide range of valid preferences.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:06
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bag em and tag em posted:No one snaps towels in the locker room. All the boys made specific and determined efforts not to interact in any way while less than fully clothed around PE time. This was not remotely my experiences with sports, though PE itself yes.
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Jan 2, 2017 08:55
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