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JonathonSpectre posted:The good news is that Trump is going to uselessly stall all the Republican legislative priorities, despite having total control, because he's very, very worried about making sure at least one Democrat votes for them so he can say it's "bipartisan." I think you're highly overestimating how much Trump cares about immediate public opinion over action and underestimating how much of a meek bitch boy crew the Democrats are. As long as they get some crumbs, they'll come to the table. JonathonSpectre posted:Oh, and the Republicans in Congress won't just fall in line and will demand things like "Make sure Ned Lamont doesn't do anything he can get credit for," and "My state needs a Cornhusker Kickback if you want my vote, hee haw!" so even if any major legislation is proposed that they've been wanting forever they won't just vote for it in lockstep and will instead deliberately water down and sabotage it for personal political gain. Trump's going to have problems with the Tea Party Caucus but you haven't been paying attention to how he can generate media and form a narrative with the country. The second they try to get in front of his agenda, he's going to name names and publicly shame them until the public revolts. JonathonSpectre posted:BTW Trump won because literally millions of people said to themselves, "He's an open racist, clearly a misogynist, has no idea about anything, and isn't qualified at all to be President, but I'm voting for him anyway." That's it, IMO. We have President-elect Trump because an enormous number of our citizens explicitly chose to support their party's future over their country's, something President Washington warned us about over two centuries ago. If and when the nukes fly, it's because we let scum like Newt Gingrich turn our country's politics into an emotion-driven team sport. That or he won because he was openly saying America first and I'm going to give you the change you want. Whether he will or won't is still in the air. If you just boil it down to 'all his supporters are racist misogynist retards', you'll never get them back under the democratic tent. (also what's up with everybody in here thinking he's going to start world war 3? he specifically wants to ease tensions with russia, stabilize the middle east and generally stay out of conflicts we can avoid. that's a far way away from the whole 'let's impose a no-fly zone on Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 16:47
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BarbarianElephant posted:This is typical Trump voter stuff. He made a whole bunch of contradictory promises and you guys believe the ones you like and disregard the others. In your case, you don't want war so you are cherry-picking the peaceful statements he made and disregarding the frothing warmonger statements he *also* made. Who said he was a man of peace? Bomb the poo poo out of ISIS was the plan for both parties and the rest of what you posted is tough man talk. It's anyone's guess whether he'll actually act on it or whether it's posturing to try to keep the rest of the world in line (but I lean to posturing because, if Trump is as vain as people say he is, he won't want his legacy to be the first president to get into a nuclear war) All of that is better than Hillary's position of 'let's turn our proxy war with russia over syria into a real one by imposing a no-fly zone (because all the planes bombing syria are russian and shooting down one would be an act of war) and let's get even tougher on iran to the possibility of bombing their facilities ('because the iranians won't fight for a program'  as if bombing iran wouldn't be viewed as an attack on their sovereignty)'
Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 17:13
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BarbarianElephant posted:You did. No, I didn't. That's what you (wrongly) interpreted. BarbarianElephant posted:That's exactly what I mean. You think the stuff he says you don't agree with is "tough man talk." Trump supporters all deal with his contradictory statements by selecting the ones they like and assuming he will stick to them, and everything else is "tough man talk." I edited some more reasoning into my original post but, to clarify, that isn't me selecting the statements I like. That's me realizing that Trump isn't stupid enough to get himself in a neverending ground war or a nuclear war. Like let's imagine that Trump is as vain as people say he is. If he is, the legacy he's going to want to leave behind with his presidency is one of greatness. He's going to want the history books to view him as the conservative FDR. He's going to want all the tacky poo poo he's done in his life to get to this point (licensing his name out or being the host of a reality show) to be a weird trivia question 200 years now. You don't get that type of legacy if you get stuck in a Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan quagmire or become the first modern president to engage in nuclear combat on a global stage. BarbarianElephant posted:We are talking about Trump, here. Focus! He's the *president* remember! Remember that my response to JonathonSpectre was to try to explain why people would choose Trump beyond racism/misogyny/stupidity. The way Hillary would respond to foreign affairs is relevant. Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 17:35
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BarbarianElephant posted:Every president wants their name to go down in history as wise, noble and capable. Unfortunately it's a loving hard job and I don't think Trump is up to it. He's unbalanced, easily provoked, ill-informed, and not as clever as he thinks he is. I give the benefit of the doubt to the man who took down two political dynasties and won the presidency despite getting handily outspent. He's clearly more clever than you think he is (it's either that or he's the luckiest man on earth) JonathonSpectre posted:I'm not worried about Trump starting a war in the "traditional" sense, of slowly-escalating tension and diplomacy that eventually fails and breaks down. I'm worried about snap judgment poo poo like, "That Iranian ship gave us the bird? Fire on them! That's a direct order!" A 3 AM Twitter-rant-esque clusterfuck that happens so relatively fast that no cooler heads are able to prevail. While I don't think there's a particularly large chance of this, I do think there's a non-zero chance, and that fact in and of itself is pretty worrisome. That's a fair concern. Like I don't think that would happen (because Trump seems to think that firing out crazy tweets late at night is no big deal and I'm hoping he realizes that committing an act of war against another country is a big loving deal) but it's impossible to tell whether it's posturing or reality until he gets sworn in. JonathonSpectre posted:But I don't think Trump is actually all that interested in being President or running the show and while he might refuse to sanction a full-on attack on Medicare or SS he is not going to be super involved in policy outside of signing what he's sent. Eh, he's already surrounding himself with people who have giant plans (read Steve Bannon's interview with Hollywood Reporter if you want a glimpse) and Trump is the exact type of person that would use the presidency as the bully pulpit to get things done. (and you may notice me using 'i think' alot but that's because we're in uncharted waters. it's going to be very hard to say for certain what Trump will do before he gets into office beyond the easy stuff like 'not start a nuclear war with russia/china' or 'not ground invade iran' or 'not drop a nuke') Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 18:13
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JonathonSpectre posted:People keep saying we're in uncharted waters, and yet, I've seen these same waters charted so many times before. The Racial and Religious Minorities are the Problem Just Give Me the Power and I'll Fix Everything Sea has been charted in:  If you think Trump's calls to deport illegal immigrants or stop Muslim travel to the US is on par with Kristallnacht or RTLMC, I don't know what to tell you. You're already vacationing in crazy hyperbole land.
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Dec 30, 2016 19:18
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JonathonSpectre posted:I look in vain for the word "Nazi" or "Hitler" in my post. Considering you mentioned Germany and followed it up with Rwanda (genocide) and Armenia (genocide), it doesn't take a genius to realize you were referencing the Nazis. There's a ton of Trump rallies on YouTube. Try sitting down and watching one of them. They aren't 2 hours of 'boy, aren't these ragheads and wetbacks causing some trouble. don't worry, uncle donny's gonna make em pay  ' because there was an actual economic message and it goes beyond blaming minorities for everything. Whether he can enact any of it is yet to be seen but I'm not surprised that people hurting chose him over 'America's already great. Four more years' Clinton. stone cold posted:-a white person with nothing to lose Quick swap out white with any other ethnicity and see if that type of rhetoric flies. Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 20:11
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Talmonis posted:Dude won the primary solely by blaming the economy on immigrants and whipped them into a frenzy about building a wall. Said people are on board with tracking Muslims in America and banning new folks from coming in. Even after literally doing so, George Bush had the goddamn sense not to come out and say it. You don't whip up a rally like that without intent to take it further. If you believe the gossip, Donald Trump settled on the idea of a wall because he's a builder and that's something inside his wheelhouse. Which sounds ridiculous as hell but ridiculous is the whole Trump campaign. Also if he was blaming the economy on immigrants, he wouldn't have said '"It's gonna be a great wall. This will be a wall with a big, very beautiful door because we want the legals to come back into the country." that makes it a law and order thing. (And I think you'd be surprised how many lefty New Yorkers would agree that the Muslim stuff falls under same 'law and order' umbrella. Not saying it's right, just trying to point out that maybe it's not the first step to concentration camps/genocide you think it is) He mostly blamed the economy on free trade, bad trade deals and regulations. (Regardless of who you voted for, I think we can all agree that last one is a little scary) Talmonis posted:If he's as smart as some think he is, doing something that irresponsble, that could quite literally and figuratively blow up in his face, would be unthinkable. If he's just a rich moron on autopilot, high on his own fumes? Well, that just proves the rest of us right. He has a history of playing up things to build support and downplaying those same things once he 'wins' (see: birtherism, all his rhetoric towards ted cruz or the 'lock her up' chants) So, yeah, he could be smart and playing with fire at the same time.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:30
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BarbarianElephant posted:I would be *very* surprised! I know *lots* of lefty New Yorkers and most of them would call you a Nazi for saying this. Any of those above 30? (also nice job editing out the 'Not saying it's right' part of that quote. I don't agree with those people.)
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Dec 30, 2016 21:41
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BarbarianElephant posted:I'm not saying you are an alt-righter who studs things he believes with Trump-esque "Some people say" hedging. That would be wrong of me. I would absolutely condemn anyone who said that. 100%. It would be wrong, so wrong. It will never stop being funny to me how borderline-hysterical Hillary supporters keep accusing me of being part of the alt-right when I try to post in threads where they ask questions about how something could happen. Click the rap sheet button to reveal where I stand. (Also I definitely don't have any ties in New York and I absolutely don't visit family there. Nope. Never. In fact, there's zero New Yorkers who lived there in 2001 that have a chip on their shoulder about 9/11. It's unheard of. ... this sarcasm thing is pretty fun  )
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Dec 30, 2016 22:19
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Kthulhu5000 posted:The key to Trump's victory is probably that he essentially said "A lot of poo poo's hosed!" in a way that resonated with his audience. No hedging, no couched language, no seemingly insincere reassurances that things are fine and nothing needs to change. This is a really good post that doesn't deserve to get ignored on the last page. BarbarianElephant posted:If Democrats field candidates based entirely on charisma, you aren't going to see candidates like Bernie, either. He's not Mr Charisma. He's Mr Ideas. You'd see more Hollywood stars or other showbiz types. Have you ever watched Bernie speak? He's not a traditionally charismatic guy like Obama but he's really good at making passionate speeches. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3NKvvxcSs
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Dec 31, 2016 18:24
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