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therobit posted:Unless you count racism towards Native Americans, I occasionally interact with the fishing industry, so I get to see that more than I like.
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Jan 4, 2017 05:36
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I always thought Portland also had pretty deep libertarian edge to it. Much of the homeless issue basically amounts to the fact the city deep down just doesn't want to spend money on shelters and most Portlanders find that situation more or less acceptable. You can see it in the city's road system as well, it was very clearly under-built and they cut corners whenever possible. The PPS is more or less the result of the same mindset. The city has a decent(ish) rail system for its size but it more or less only existed because the federal government paid for almost all of it since Trimet tailored the system for a maximized payout. Also, as far as social liberalism goes there is a big difference between the inner SE/NE bubble and rural Oregon to the point they act like two different political cultures.
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Jan 4, 2017 05:56
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So basically the lesson I'm learning from all of this is that since Portland is so bad I shouldn't worry about anything up here in Seattle. Good to know. (If you tell me about something bad in Seattle I'll only check to make sure I'm in a different neighborhood, then feel proud about that.)
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Jan 4, 2017 06:08
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Why is diversity only ever measured as black (maybe Hispanic or Native American thrown in once in a while) vs white dominance? Why are Asian and Pacific Islander groups always left out? When I think about the people I work with or spend time with, there are a lot of folks in those specific groups (both blue and white collar) who never seem to count when it comes to issues of racial disparity. Why is that?
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Jan 4, 2017 06:57
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Solkanar512 posted:Why is diversity only ever measured as black (maybe Hispanic or Native American thrown in once in a while) vs white dominance? Why are Asian and Pacific Islander groups always left out? When I think about the people I work with or spend time with, there are a lot of folks in those specific groups (both blue and white collar) who never seem to count when it comes to issues of racial disparity.
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Jan 4, 2017 09:00
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Solkanar512 posted:Why is diversity only ever measured as black (maybe Hispanic or Native American thrown in once in a while) vs white dominance? Why are Asian and Pacific Islander groups always left out? When I think about the people I work with or spend time with, there are a lot of folks in those specific groups (both blue and white collar) who never seem to count when it comes to issues of racial disparity. Slavery, mostly. We didn't fight a war over the right to keep Samoans enslaved.
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Jan 4, 2017 12:39
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anthonypants posted:This is a really great example of exactly how subtle it is up here. gently caress off with the insinuations. People here complained about the inability to openly talk about race, and the moment the experiences of another group were asked about, you open with this? Come on. I just think it's crap that folks like you seem to completely ignore and erase the experiences of major minority groups in the PNW by completely ignoring their existence. Relevant Tangent posted:Slavery, mostly. We didn't fight a war over the right to keep Samoans enslaved. Yeah, I mean who gives a poo poo about the railroads or internment camps, right? I'm sure there's a great deal more but like I said, these experiences aren't really being discussed. Solkanar512 fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Jan 4, 2017 |
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Jan 4, 2017 13:20
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Solkanar512 posted:gently caress off with the insinuations. People here complained about the inability to openly talk about race, and the moment the experiences of another group were asked about, you open with this? Come on. If you want to talk about internment camps, feel free. Or we could talk about reservations, sovereignty, whatever. Nobody is stopping you at all, but concern trolling with 'Why do we always talk about this minority instead of this other minority' (without, let it be noted talking about the other minority beyond using them as a convenient way to stop the current conversation) is weak sauce.
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Jan 4, 2017 14:08
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Relevant Tangent posted:If you want to talk about internment camps, feel free. Or we could talk about reservations, sovereignty, whatever. Nobody is stopping you at all, but concern trolling with 'Why do we always talk about this minority instead of this other minority' (without, let it be noted talking about the other minority beyond using them as a convenient way to stop the current conversation) is weak sauce. I'm not concern trolling, and I'm not interested in stopping the current conversation either. Just because I decided not to have another three paragraphs qualifying my whole belief structure, the existence of cis/white/male privilege and so on doesn't mean I don't understand or acknowledge it. I'm not trying to shut anything down, I'm trying to be more inclusive. Maybe it wasn't worded well, but the racial conflicts we have in the PNW are much more complex than many are willing to acknowledge. The fact is that I don't have a great deal to say I the issue specifically because it's never discussed. I can't think of a single time Asian/Pacific Islander issues were mentioned in the last thread. If that's simply personal ignorance then so be it but I think that's better than pretending it doesn't exist at all.
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Jan 4, 2017 14:41
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Solkanar512 posted:I'm not concern trolling, and I'm not interested in stopping the current conversation either. Just because I decided not to have another three paragraphs qualifying my whole belief structure, the existence of cis/white/male privilege and so on doesn't mean I don't understand or acknowledge it. I'm not trying to shut anything down, I'm trying to be more inclusive. Maybe it wasn't worded well, but the racial conflicts we have in the PNW are much more complex than many are willing to acknowledge. How about you don't bitch about it until you can say something about it then?
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Jan 4, 2017 15:38
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Solkanar512 posted:gently caress off with the insinuations. People here complained about the inability to openly talk about race, and the moment the experiences of another group were asked about, you open with this? Come on. The reason is that for the most part, asians and latinxs are "white". If you don't think that makes a difference, George Zimmerman is a good example in recent history.
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Jan 4, 2017 16:11
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therobit posted:How about you don't bitch about it until you can say something about it then? I believe that pointing out erasure is important. I'm not expecting people to do my work for me or educate me. I just took a hard look around my workplace and circle of friends and was really embarrassed to find that their stories aren't being told. Even then, I'm certainly not the right person to be telling those stories. These aren't my experiences to tell. anthonypants posted:Ah, you were serious. Thank you, that makes a good deal of sense to me.
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Jan 4, 2017 16:23
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Are we seriously comparing Oregon to The South in terms of how racist they are? They're both loving racist as hell. The only reason Oregon didn't have systemic racist institutions is because: 1. Slavery was the most useful in manpower-intensive operations such as rice, cotton growing. 2. Slavery was the most accepted in the earlier parts of the US' history, when Oregon wasn't even settled by white people. 3. Oregon didn't have massive farms requiring thousands of workers, and when it did have manpower-intensive operations slavery wasn't super accepted. 4. Oregon was settled, in part, by people who believed in a white utopia. They purposefully excluded even free blacks. 5. This all led to Oregon having very few black people in the 1940s-60s, when much of the south was busy practicing separate but equal. I would be willing to put money on segregated everything here if there had been a large enough black population in that point in time. As it was, Oregon did a pretty drat good job of segregating out the Asian population without explicitly defining ghettos. That being said, the Modern Portland we know and love right now is very weird. There's a feeling of awareness that we treat minorities badly as a nation, but this doesn't seem to translate into Modern Portland being on the forefront of race relations. There's underlying racism vs. the Hispanic/Latino population (asians seem to be somewhat accepted), and we have a higher-than-average amount of white supremacists when you get out of the city. But where Portland does excel is in LBGTQ relations, which is focused on right now. I'd contest this is because of the concept of coming out of the closet. LBGTQ people were always in our families and friend groups (even for religious and conservative people), they just hid. Now that they're not hiding, everyone is realizing they were always part of the community. Some places, like the South, where religion holds sway, are fighting back against this and trying to explain it away as mental illness. For the most part, Portland seems to not be influenced heavily by religious institutions and is instead accepting those people (although trans folks not as much as LGBT folks).
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Jan 4, 2017 18:15
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turn it up TURN ME ON posted:But where Portland does excel is in LBGTQ relations, which is focused on right now. I'd contest this is because of the concept of coming out of the closet. LBGTQ people were always in our families and friend groups (even for religious and conservative people), they just hid. Now that they're not hiding, everyone is realizing they were always part of the community. Some places, like the South, where religion holds sway, are fighting back against this and trying to explain it away as mental illness. For the most part, Portland seems to not be influenced heavily by religious institutions and is instead accepting those people (although trans folks not as much as LGBT folks). In what ways does Portland lag behind in acceptance of trans people? I've always thought of the PNW as the closest to a left area in America, and I'm currently trying to save up to move there from the Midwest. I'm also trans so it's an issue I'd love to hear your take on. (Also your last statement had me giggle a bit, we are the T in LGBT) Eimi fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jan 4, 2017 |
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Jan 4, 2017 18:39
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The week after my conference, we drove through tons of rural areas doing field work. I have never seen so many confederate flags in my life. I was very grateful that I was traveling with a white dude, because holy poo poo. We were sampling along a river at one point and there was a big white family with a giant confederate flag billowing proudly in the breeze while two of the adults used an inflatable mattress to float down the river. I took pictures of these kinds of things because I've found that when I explain my experiences people don't believe me. Oregon? Washington?! There's no racism there! That's only in the South! My Portland experience was as a total outsider who had never been to the PNW (or the West in general) and was predominantly raised in the South (North Carolina). I came in completely believing the "very diverse liberal mecca" reputation because I didn't know any better, particularly the history of the entire region. I grew up playing Oregon Trail! Portland is weird like Austin! I have lived in Austin, so that's what I was envisioning for Portland. Hoo boy. My favorite phrase from my stay was when in restaurants, on the bus, on the train, wherever, when someone would ask me where I was from and I would say Tennessee, the response was always: "Oh, we're really tolerant here." Immediately. Every time. This was particularly strange because "tolerant" is not "accepting." Saying you're "tolerant" is a very short step away from outright rejection. For instance, one does not say "I tolerate Joe's behavior" as a compliment. It's a baffling thing to declare to a stranger, and I heard it every single time I told people where I was from. We're really tolerant here. A good microcosm of my Portland experience was my visit to Voodoo Donuts, supposed donut haven of Portland. I went based on the recommendations of several friends who just love their donuts! They're so delicious! I waited 20 minutes in line, paid cash, and got this box as my carton to walk back to my hotel with:  I mean, look at it. Look at it.
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Jan 4, 2017 18:45
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Eimi posted:In what ways does Portland lag behind in acceptance of trans people? I've always thought of the PNW as the closest to a left area in America, and I'm currently trying to save up to move there from the Midwest. I'm also trans so it's an issue I'd love to hear your take on. (Also your last statement had me giggle a bit, we are the T in LGBT) I have to admit I'm a bit ignorant on the trans stuff, since I don't have any close friends who are involved in it. Or if I do, they just suffer quietly. So I may, in fact, be talking out of my rear end.
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Jan 4, 2017 18:50
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Eimi posted:In what ways does Portland lag behind in acceptance of trans people? I've always thought of the PNW as the closest to a left area in America, and I'm currently trying to save up to move there from the Midwest. I'm also trans so it's an issue I'd love to hear you take on. (Also your last statement had me giggle a bit, we are the T in LGBT)
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Jan 4, 2017 19:10
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Wiggy Marie posted:A good microcosm of my Portland experience was my visit to Voodoo Donuts, supposed donut haven of Portland. I went based on the recommendations of several friends who just love their donuts! They're so delicious! I waited 20 minutes in line, paid cash, and got this box as my carton to walk back to my hotel with: Voodoo Doughnuts is gimmicky, overly-sweetened garbage for idiot tourists.
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Jan 5, 2017 00:46
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It's all about the donut shop at 72nd and ne sandy
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Jan 5, 2017 00:49
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MrBlandAverage posted:Voodoo Doughnuts is gimmicky, overly-sweetened garbage for idiot tourists. I'm glad to read this because it wasn't good at all.
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Jan 5, 2017 01:51
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Wiggy Marie posted:I'm glad to read this because it wasn't good at all.
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Jan 5, 2017 01:57
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anthonypants posted:If you want to spend a lot of money on fancy donuts you should check out Blue Star. Here's an article about what it's like to work at Voodoo. Keep Portland Weird! Yeah if I want a top dollar Luxury Donut I'll go to Blue Star. They're really good. If I want an average donut I'll go to Heavenly or something.
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Jan 5, 2017 02:07
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Voodoo was great a decade ago when they were just a donut shop downtown that was open at 3 when you finished drinking with no or little line that sold gimmicky donuts for a lot less than they do now. It helps if you are drunk and they are the only place within walking distance for a donut and you don't have to wait, is all I am saying. Once they became midwestern tourist destination#1 and jacked up the prices it was no longer worth going there. I still don't understand why people want to go there but invariably when one of my wife's friends from Canada or New Zealand comes into town they want to go to Voodoo. And every time while you wait in line someone will come out of there telling you it isn't worth it, and you will wish you had listened to them. Blue star is a way better donut and for cheap donuts go to heavenly as stated by others. Wiggly- They probably are letting you know how "tolerant" they are because their only experience of southerners is movies about the civil war, so they want to let you know that you better be careful, because we know that as a southerner you are a racist homophobe and you need to understand our tolerant culture in order to get along here. I wish this was a joke. Eimi- Portland is probably more accepting of transgendered people than any other place, except maybe San Francisco. Which is not to say we are very accepting, just that most places suck about it more. We used to say that it was the struggle for GLBT rights, in that order. The DMV will not currently allow a "non binary gender" option on the Driver license, for instance, though they HAVE approached lawmakers to look at changing Oregon law around gender on driver licences after one person was declared legally non-binary gendered by an Oregon judge. It is probably going to take years, and is complicated by federal rules about legal documents for air travel.
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Jan 5, 2017 06:30
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Interesting bit on historical racism towards Asians in Oregon: https://www.facebook.com/events/1765664480420957/
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Jan 5, 2017 07:50
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Eimi posted:In what ways does Portland lag behind in acceptance of trans people? I've always thought of the PNW as the closest to a left area in America, and I'm currently trying to save up to move there from the Midwest. I'm also trans so it's an issue I'd love to hear your take on. (Also your last statement had me giggle a bit, we are the T in LGBT) We got lots and lots of trans folks here and there are a lot of neighborhoods where people don't even publicly give a poo poo. PM me and I can probably hook you up.
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Jan 5, 2017 08:54
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Lazy_Liberal posted:We got lots and lots of trans folks here and there are a lot of neighborhoods where people don't even publicly give a poo poo. PM me and I can probably hook you up. Yeah it occurs to me that at the operations center I used to work at I worked with one transwoman and knee of at least two others in the building and all three seemes to be treated normally both by management and (mostly) coworkers as far as I could tell.y industry tends to be stodgy and conservative. I mean it is sad that "being treated like a normal human" is notable, but that is our world. I think if anything Portland just has the critical mass necessary for LGBT rights to make advances not possible in some other places.
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Jan 5, 2017 09:09
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anthonypants posted:If you want to spend a lot of money on fancy donuts you should check out Blue Star. Here's an article about what it's like to work at Voodoo. Keep Portland Weird! If I ever go back I'll check them out. The only reason I went to Voodoo is because I asked friends here for recommendations for Portland activities/spots since I'd never been, and Voodoo was one of the recommendations. I was hoping for super unique spots. I got Voodoo and "there's a cool pedestrian bridge!!!" It should've been a sign. therobit posted:Wiggly- I hadn't considered this. I thought they might be telling me that because of my slightly brown skin tone in some weird attempt to reassure me, since clearly I'd come from Tennessee to escape the roving racists. Really, I'm glad they educated me on how really tolerant they are. If they hadn't said anything, I wouldn't have known otherwise. A fun tumblr I found during my "what the hell is wrong with this city" research: poo poo White People say to Black& Brown People in Portland
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Jan 5, 2017 19:42
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Wiggy Marie posted:If I ever go back I'll check them out. The only reason I went to Voodoo is because I asked friends here for recommendations for Portland activities/spots since I'd never been, and Voodoo was one of the recommendations. I was hoping for super unique spots. I got Voodoo and "there's a cool pedestrian bridge!!!" It should've been a sign. Ah. Yes you are probably right that they are re-assuring you that they themselves and Portlanders are not racist, unlike any other white people you may have met in the south, since ALL of them are racist but WE are not. I have not witnessed this with telling a peson of another race that we are so tolerant, but I have seen that t happen with gay people before so I am not surprised. It is important that they tell you this instead of just treating you with respect and letting you figure it out I guess. I am sorry that Portland treated you badly. I hope your experience is not repeated if you come back. If you do come back I would be willing to help direct you to some better poo poo to do, depending on your interests.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:45
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therobit posted:I am sorry that Portland treated you badly. I hope your experience is not repeated if you come back. If you do come back I would be willing to help direct you to some better poo poo to do, depending on your interests. This would be awesome, thank you! I will definitely drop you a line should I ever head back out that way.
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Jan 6, 2017 20:55
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turn it up TURN ME ON posted:Yeah if I want a top dollar Luxury Donut I'll go to Blue Star. They're really good. If I want an average donut I'll go to Heavenly or something. I remember Heavenly Donuts being really bad for some reason at least the one off Lombard, I was probably quite drunk and vomited them up though and thus have negative associations. One of the only okay things about Voodoo and what constituted 95% of the Voodoo donuts I ate were those cheap buckets of donuts people would get ahold of for club events at UP it was a wash what ended up in them however and sometimes they just had crap.
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Jan 8, 2017 12:17
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Jack2142 posted:I remember Heavenly Donuts being really bad for some reason at least the one off Lombard, I was probably quite drunk and vomited them up though and thus have negative associations. One of the only okay things about Voodoo and what constituted 95% of the Voodoo donuts I ate were those cheap buckets of donuts people would get ahold of for club events at UP it was a wash what ended up in them however and sometimes they just had crap. hell yeah, I've gone through so many 5 gallon buckets of day-old voodoo donuts
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Jan 8, 2017 13:35
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Heavenly is bad a lot of the time, I really like Annie's donut shop on sandy near 82nd.
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Jan 8, 2017 19:38
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Donuts are bad. Deep fried sugar is bad for you and it doesn't really taste very good either
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Jan 9, 2017 04:34
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My diet's allotment of junk food is fairly limited so that if I eat more than like half a donut I get sick. Heck, the other day I ate 10 skittles and got sick. Everyone should aspire to have as weak a stomach as I.
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Jan 9, 2017 12:54
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coyo7e posted:Donuts are bad. Deep fried sugar is bad for you and it doesn't really taste very good either Yeah, not so sure about the second part there.
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Jan 9, 2017 15:04
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coyo7e posted:Donuts are bad. Deep fried sugar is bad for you and it doesn't really taste very good either You aren't a real person, and your creator should be shamed that their chatbot failed this badly in the wild.
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Jan 9, 2017 17:31
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coyo7e posted:Donuts are bad. Deep fried sugar is bad for you and it doesn't really taste very good either I'm guessing you don't own a TV either.
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Jan 9, 2017 18:57
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Or a functioning tongue.
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Jan 9, 2017 22:40
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Mrit SA posted:I'm guessing you don't own a TV either. It's somewhat normal these days to not own a TV (I mean to just use the internet instead of cable). It's not and will never be normal to think donuts don't taste good. Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 00:10
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seiferguy posted:I've been trying to look for it, but there was an article / opinion piece ran in the Seattle Times after a major tragedy (I think the Charleston church shooting?) where the author basically patted himself on the back and said something to the effect of "other cities need to be like us when it comes to racial diversity." It kind of speaks to the mentality that we think we're all great at race relations because lynching didn't start here. Seattle and Portland has real racial issues, but I'd say they're different from the ones in the South. Being black in Seattle in the midst of all the TechBros, I compare it to how Asian people are seen in the South. Just an outright naivety that often ends up making you feel more like an oddity rather than a human being. Usually not openly racist, but hey, maybe I've been lucky to miss the bad parties. Solkanar512 posted:Why is diversity only ever measured as black (maybe Hispanic or Native American thrown in once in a while) vs white dominance? Why are Asian and Pacific Islander groups always left out? When I think about the people I work with or spend time with, there are a lot of folks in those specific groups (both blue and white collar) who never seem to count when it comes to issues of racial disparity. It's a downside of them being more common that an unsteady peace has emerged in the same way that every white Southerner has some black friends who are "some of the good ones". And believe me, it exists and happens, judging what I hear from my friends. Ditocoaf posted:So basically the lesson I'm learning from all of this is that since Portland is so bad I shouldn't worry about anything up here in Seattle. Good to know. (If you tell me about something bad in Seattle I'll only check to make sure I'm in a different neighborhood, then feel proud about that.) I think I just bemoaned some racial bullshit in the pretty Starbucks on Capitol Hill just last year, where a black woman was being verbally harassed by a white guy. Sorry, Charlie. Yep, I'm also from North Carolina originally, and while among friends I definitely don't have to fight as much of an uphill battle to point out things, and there's not the same constant legacy being thrown in your face with all the monuments for Confederate leaders, there's Problems.
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